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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev.21:8 does not make Rev.5:13 untrue:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    Yet the Scripture (v.23) you just quoted speaks of "every" one bowing the knee and confessing. That, therefore, includes those of v.24.

    Furthermore, being "ashamed" (v.24b), or "put to shame", is nothing like endless tortures & can be a positive thing, and associated with salvation, salvation which is BTW referred to in the previous 3 verses, Isa.45:21-23:

    21b There is no other God but Me, a righteous God and Savior; there is none but Me.
    22 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
    23 By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will confess allegiance.

    Isa.45:24b:
    even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (KJV)
    to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. (ESV)
    And ashamed are all those displeased with Him. (YLT)
    To him shall [men] come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (DBY)
    Everyone who is angry with me will be terribly ashamed and will turn to me. (CEV)
    all who were incensed against him shall come to him and be ashamed. (NRSV)
    even to Him shall men come; and all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed. (OJB)
    to him shall come and be ashamed, all who were incensed against him. (RSV)
    shall be ashamed (Hebrew Interlinear) https://studybible.info/IHOT/Isaiah 45

    And those who "come to him" (Isa.45:24b) - Jesus - find rest for their souls:

    Mt.11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29
    Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.

    Of course "coming to Him" (Isa.45:24; Mt.11:28) & "finding rest for your souls" (Mt.11:29) involves also "being ashamed" (Isa.45:24) of our sinful ways first. In this case the sin is called "being incensed against Him" (Isa.45:24). BTW, several versions say they "were", not "are", incensed against Him.


    The one you quoted didn't define "construction" & you appear to be assuming what was meant by the word. So your response re "construction" is a classic strawman argument fallacy.

    You state: "The subjunctive mood in Greek is the mood of possibility or possibility not absolute."

    However, in John 3:16 & Phil.2:10 the subjunctive occurs with the particle hina. When the subjunctive occurs with the particle hina, as in Rom.11:32 & Gal.2:16, for examples, it does not indicate “possibility & potentiality” but rather “purpose or result”. “When hina is used with the subjunctive, the mood changes from one of possibility or probability, to one of purpose or result.” http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

    “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Gal.2:16, NASB)

    “Again, “may” here is an idiomatic way of translating purpose in English. The purpose of belief is justification. Indeed, one can also see here the hina clause being used to indicate result. Paul, by using the subjunctive, is not intending to communicate any kind of uncertainty with regard to justification. Rather, by using the subjunctive in a hina clause, he is proclaiming that our faith in Christ has its purpose in our justification, and also has its end result in our justification.” http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

    Is it, then, your argument that the subjunctive in "so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life" (Jn.3:16b) means it's only a "possibility", not a certainty, that those "believing in Him should not perish"?

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

    "Keep in mind these 2 simple observations:

    The text In Isaiah 45:22-23 that inspires 2:9-11 uses the future tense.

    (2) The other NT text referring to the worship of everyone “in heaven, on earth, and under the earth” presents a vision of what happens, not of what might happen (Rev. 5:13)."

    “In the NT κάμπτω is found only in combination with γόνυ (γόνατα), and in this connection it is used trans. with γόνυ (γόνατα) as obj. (R. 11:4; Eph. 3:14) and instrans. with γόνυ as subj. (R. 14:11; Phil.2:10).”

    “κάμπτειν γόνυ (γόνατα) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship before the one whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgement scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 11:4 κάμπτειν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14…is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.3, p.594-595, Heinrich Schlier, ed. Kittel., Eerdmans, 1978).

    "Vincent’s Word Studies

    At the name of Jesus (ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι)

    Rev., better, in the name. The name means here the personal name; but as including all that is involved in the name. See on Matthew 28:19. Hence the salutation is not at the name of Jesus, as by bowing when the name is uttered, but, as Ellicott rightly says: “the spiritual sphere, the holy element as it were, in which every prayer is to be offered and every knee to bow.” Compare Ephesians 5:20."

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/philippians/2-10.htm

    "Talbot argues Paul anticipated this exhaustive reconciliation because of the verb he chose: confess. According to Talbot, “he chose a verb that throughout the Septuagint implies not only confession, but the offer of praise and thanksgiving as well.”3 He goes on to suggest that, while a king or queen could force a subject to bow against their will, praise and thanksgiving can only come from the heart:

    " “either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.4” "

    Is Love Omnipotent now a Calvinist "compelling" by irresistible force the puppets He controls, & "compelling" them to bow down before Him & confess "Jesus Christ is Lord"? And this is supposed to be to His glory? Or does the Merciful Good One will that His created creatures, human beings, willlingly of their own free wills bow & confess "Jesus Christ is Lord", since He is a Father, not a "compelling" rapist?

    "No hypocritical confession will satisfy God. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1Cor. 12:3). Further, Phil. 2:11 says that the confession is “to the glory of God the Father.” No confession compulsion and force would glorify God the Father.” The whole text implies a real change of heart to make this confession truly “in the Name of Jesus” and “to the glory of God the Father.” Note, further, that those who “bow” and “confess” are in heaven," “in earth,” and “underearth.” This includes the whole creation of God."http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch8_neglected_age.html

    "...it seems absurd to assume that the confession (which in Hebrew implies gratitude) is coerced before a lever is lifted and these poor souls fall, screaming back to Hell. The invitation to universal salvation in the underlying Isaiah text and it proclamation of the confession that will (not should) happen is decisive, together with the fact that the confession “Jesus is Lord” is redemptive and implies the inspiration of the Holy Spirit (so 1 Cor 12:3)." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-should-vs-will/4150/65

    “How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

    “He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

    "It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

    According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

    Love will conquer all.

    As someone said:

    "annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  2. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    First disagreeing with BDAG definition is not ignoring it, and as I have stated many times already scripture state that the aion and its adjective have a beginning and an end, thus BDAG and you are obviously wrong.

    2nd that you could not find where I highlighted anything in BDAG shows your selective reading as I told you in that post to look at what I highlighted.
     
  3. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    I can't help you out here if you do not believe God spoke through all the holy prophets of old the restitution of all things, or that God spoke through the apostles when they stated Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.

    That you believe that it was not God who spoke through them the message of salvation through Jesus Christ tells me more about you then you really wanted me to know.

    So if God did not INTEND to save all mankind/the world, why do the scriptures tell us that the salvation of the world was why God sent Jesus to begin with?
     
  4. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    eek gad
    Tell me DA does this aionios life have a beginning? if so it cannot be eternal (without beginning and without end)

    Also tell me if the aionios torment has a beginning? if so it cannot be eternal (without beginning and without end)

    You whole argument is lost if it is said either of these has a beginning. And we both no they do
     
  5. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Christian

    nice post brother but I fear it falls on deaf ears here, but maybe it has helped some of the readers
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    eek gad
    Tell me DA does this aionios life have a beginning? if so it cannot be eternal (without beginning and without end)
    Also tell me if the aionios torment has a beginning? if so it cannot be eternal (without beginning and without end)
    You whole argument is lost if it is said either of these has a beginning. And we both no they do
    Ee Gad indeed I see the problem you have interjected your own assumptions/presuppositions. Show me in any credible Greek lexicon where "eternal" must be "without beginning and without end?" When one interjects their beliefs into any definition they can make the Bible say almost anything.
    .....The definition of "eternal"from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. I don't see "without beginning and without end."

    Definition of eternal
    1a : having infinite duration : everlasting eternal damnation
    b : of or relating to eternity
    c : characterized by abiding fellowship with Godgood teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? —Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
    2a : continued without intermission : perpetual an eternal flame
    b : seemingly endless eternal delays

     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You did not tell me that what you highlighted was in the part of my post which was truncated in the quote and was not visible until I expanded it. So the failure was not on my part but your lack of clarity. Perhaps that was deliberate.
    Even so the highlights do not illustrate what I asked for.
    The post in question your post #636
    You had claimed that the definition of of kampto included "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..." What you highlighted does not say this. So once again you are proven wrong. Game, set, match.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <P3>I can't help you out here if you do not believe God spoke through all the holy prophets of old the restitution of all things, or that God spoke through the apostles when they stated Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.
    That you believe that it was not God who spoke through them the message of salvation through Jesus Christ tells me more about you then you really wanted me to know.
    So if God did not INTEND to save all mankind/the world, why do the scriptures tell us that the salvation of the world was why God sent Jesus to begin with?
    <end>
    Twisting my words will not make your assumptions/presuppositions correct. I believe that the prophets were inspired by God and believe everything they say BUT I do not believe you faulty interpretation is correct. And the reason I do not believe your interpretation is correct is because neither God nor Jesus themselves say that they will save all mankind no matter what, good, evil, whatever.
    .....The only major doctrine which neither God, Himself, nor Jesus, Himself, did personally speak. The OT is filled with commandments and instructions from God but God Himself never says all mankind will be saved. The NT is filled with commandments and instructions from Jesus but never once does Jesus, Himself, say that all mankind will be saved.
    .....Yes Jesus is the savior of the world. Do you believe that,

    “the whole world is under the control of the evil one” 1 John 5:19
    “Satan, who leads the whole world astray” Revelation 12:9
    “The whole world … followed the beast” Revelation 13:3
    “Diana …, whom all Asia and the world worships.” Acts 19:27
    Satan is “the god of this world.”Corinthians 4:4
    Do you believe all of this? It scripture inspired by God.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Neither God the Father nor Jesus ever say anyone will never be saved. OTOH:

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    This appears to state God's purpose in sending His Son. One might ask if Love Omnipotent is capable of fulfilling it and, if so, will He do so, or is there anything that could stop Him from achieving this purpose?

    The Calvinist might say, no, there is nothing stopping HIm & He will save the world, but the world is only those lucky few who are chosen, not every individual in history of all mankind.

    The Arminian might say, yes, there is something stopping Him, namely free will (which God will not violate) and the time limit of this lifetime after which the Love of the Omnipotent expires for them like a carton of milk when it passes the "best by" date on the container.

    But what if God's love doesn't expire & He seeks the lost till He finds it, like the shepherd seeks the lost sheep till He finds it (compare the parables Jesus told in Luke 15 re the lost coin & sheep & prodigal son)? What if God never gives up on anyone? What if it is mathematically impossible that anyone being tormented & "burning in hell" could reject Him continually for endless ages, i.e. forever?

    Is it merely a “purpose” of God “that the world should be saved through Him” (Christ, Jn.3:17b), a purpose that might not possibly be fulfilled? Or is it a purpose that will definitely result, i.e. that the world - shall - be saved through Him?

    According to BDAG “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

    http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
     
  10. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    You should really look at the etymology of the word.

    eternal | Origin and meaning of eternal by Online Etymology Dictionary

    eternal (adj.)


    late 14c., from Old French eternel "eternal," or directly from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus "of an age, lasting, enduring, permanent, everlasting, endless," contraction of aeviternus "of great age," from aevum "age" (from PIE root *aiw- "vital force, life; long life, eternity").


    Used since Middle English both of things or conditions without beginning or end and things with a beginning only but no end. A parallel form, Middle English eterne, is from Old French eterne (cognate with Spanish eterno), directly from Latin aeternus. Related: Eternally. The Eternal (n.) for "God" is attested from 1580s.

    So as you can see it is used to mean without beginning and without end.

    However as I have stated many times aion and its adjective according to scripture have a beginning and have an END.

    I don't have to play with words to make it match what I want it to say as it always is referring to an age and that which pertains to an age. You on the other hand want to pick and choose when it means an age or when it means eternal.
     
  11. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    better reread then because you missed it twice now or are using selective reading.

    Here let me help you out again from your quote......

    I have already addressed kampto but will address it again since the error is being repeated.

    κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).

    ① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.

    ② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.



    Note the definition does not include "in religious veneration."

    Now look at what I highlighted.





    ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).

    ① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).

    ② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.

    ③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.

    ④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty
    (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.





    Note the definition does not include "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..."

    Now look at what I highlighted.

    Now did you just miss these or are you using selective reading.
     
  12. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Not going to let you away with that red herring DA.

    You asked for a scripture where God or Jesus said he/they would save the world.

    I gave you 7 different scriptures from the mouth of those who seen and heard Jesus speak stating Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.

    Now if God was speaking through these people then I have given you where God said Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. So to keep pretending I did not is just foolishness on your part.
     
  13. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

    +379
    Christian

    For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
    (Jn.3:17)

    yup, yup , yup, but according to DA's doctrine God only pretended to save the world He did not really mean it.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I'm glad you posted this
    "eternal | Origin and meaning of eternal by Online Etymology Dictionary
    eternal (adj.)

    late 14c., from Old French eternel "eternal," or directly from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus "of an age, lasting, enduring, permanent, everlasting, endless," contraction of aeviternus "of great age," from aevum "age" (from PIE root *aiw- "vital force, life; long life, eternity").
    Used since Middle English both of things or conditions
    without beginning or end and things with a beginning only but no end. A parallel form, Middle English eterne, is from Old French eterne (cognate with Spanish eterno), directly from Latin aeternus. Related: Eternally. The Eternal (n.) for "God" is attested from 1580s."
    You claim not to play with words and that is exactly what you have done. That is known as the lexical fallacy "the • "Root fallacy: assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;" Even what you quoted includes "permanent, everlasting, endless, things with beginning only but no end." Contrary to your claim your source does not say that eternal means always, only "without beginning and without end." Here is the definition of the word "eternal" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary. This is what the word means in modern times not what it could have meant in the 14th-16th century.
    Definition of eternal
    1a : having infinite duration : everlasting eternal damnation
    b : of or relating to eternity
    c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
    good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? —Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)
    2a : continued without intermission : perpetual an eternal flame
    b : seemingly endless eternal delays
    3archaic : infernal
    some eternal villain … devised this slander
    —William Shakespeare
    4: valid or existing at all times: timeless
    eternal verities

    As I have shown your source does not support your claim that "eternal always,only means without beginning and without end."
    Wrong as usual, playing with words is exactly what you have done and are doing. That a word can mean "X" does not mean that word always, only means "X." Once again even your own source "online etymology" supports me. You ready for round 2?
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In what way is that? According to BDAG Jesus is the Savior of the "world" & by "world" is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception as regards "the Savior of the world" (Jn.4:42).

    It seems you only quote BDAG when it supports you, not when it opposes you, as here. Which explains why you provided your own opinion instead of posting an authority, BDAG being your favorite.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have already addressed kampto but will address it again since the error is being repeated.
    κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
    ① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow
    freq. [NOT always DA] as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
    ② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Note the definition does not include "in religious veneration."
    (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III B.C.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 B.C.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).
    to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).
    to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 A.D.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei
    ③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.
    ④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.
    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Note the definition does not include "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..."
    I'm still looking for the words "acknowledge openly and joyfully to celebrate in praise of ones honour..." That is what you claimed BDAG and those specific words are not there. And did you happen to read what BDAG specifically said about Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:1. Or do you only read what fits your assumptions/presuppositions?
    Kampto ② he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:1
    Exomoloyeo ③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, .... Phil 2:11

    Rom 14:11 It is written, "'You can be sure that I live,' says the Lord. "And you can be just as sure that every knee will bow down in front of me. Every tongue will tell the truth to God.'" (Isaiah 45:23)
    Php 2:10 When the name of Jesus is spoken, everyone's knee will bow to worship him. Every knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bow to worship him.
    Php 2:11 Everyone's mouth will say that Jesus Christ is Lord. And God the Father will receive the glory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth inrighteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)


    "Message: “God honored him… so that all created beings —even those long ago dead and buried will bow in worship and call out in praise that He is the Master, to the glory of God the Father.”

    Today’s hymn: One day every tongue will confess you are God, one day every knee will bow

    Still the greatest treasure remains for those who gladly choose you now.
    Brian Doersken 1998 Mercy/Vineyard Publishing CCLI 90961
    Cf. Matt Redman’s “There’s a Louder Shout to Come:” All the people with one Lord, and what a song we’ll sing upon that day.

    Philippians 2:9-11 Agreement is nearly universal on three conclusions
    1. In the end, an obedient expression of worship affirming Christ’s Lordship will glorify God.
    2. This outcome is an assured victory of God (all “will confess Jesus is Lord” -NAS).
    3. Paul refers to all people here (everyone in heaven, earth, or under it includes the living and the dead).

    But does this confession display redemption or damnation? Today’s consensus is that other passages assert that God will cut unbelievers off from any redemptive hope. Thus, we must only perceive here that God is ‘forcing their knees to the ground’ to extract an unrepentant admission of defeat.

    A Minority View: Strong Arguments for a Hope taught by church leaders nearest to the New Testament.

    1. This is Paul’s precise language for defining who is saved. “If you confess Jesus is Lord… you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9). Paul never suggests that any who confess this are forever punished.
    2. Only God’s Spirit (who doesn’t ‘force’ the fruit he creates) can produce this. “No one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13). Paul never depicts an involuntary confession of Lordship.
    3. The verb “confess” is regularly used for a voluntary response, usually praise. Heb. 13:15 “Let us offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly confess (NAS: give thanks to) his name. Rom. 15:9 Therefore I will praise (=confess) you among the Gentiles; I will sing the praises of your name. Matt. 11:25 NAS I praise (lit. confess to) You, that You have revealed these things to infants. 1 Tim. 6:12 Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession.

    In Paul’s Greek O.T., this word, translated ‘confess,’ means to praise. Indeed, the very passage Paul is quoting here clearly involves real praise. Isaiah 45:23 “To Me every knee will bow, every tongue will ‘confess.’ 24 They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are deliverance &amp; strength.’ All will come to Him….”

    Revelation 5:13 appears parallel. “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever!”

    4. “Every tongue” includes believers, whose worship must be a willing tribute. Yet Paul uses the same heart language of worship for all. He indicates no distinction between that of the saved or the damned.

    5. This song of confession brings glory to God. But Jesus made it clear that worship or words that are not from the heart don’t please or glorify God at all (Matt. 15:18). Psalm 51:6 confirms, “You desire truth in the innermost being.” Phil. 2 is the language of worship, which by its’ nature must be offered sincerely.

    6. The parallel in Colossians 1:20 promises “all things created” (16) are reconciled! To achieve supremacy (18b), God “reconciles to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” Again, this could not be a forced illusory ‘reconciliation,’ or an un-glad pacification, where rebels remain alienated in hell. For “reconciliation” is Paul’s language for salvation, where a ruptured relationship is restored to harmony between believers and God (Cf. Rom. 5:11; Eph. 2:14-16). In vs. 22, “reconciled” means to “be in God’s sight without blemish.” In vs. 20, it brings a true, healing “peace,” which fits believers. For example,. Rom.5:1,11 “Since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God… and reconciliation.”

    This peace results from the “blood” of the cross. God could ‘force’ unwilling obedience, without Jesus dying! But the cross &amp; the crucified Jesus of Philippians 2 is not glorified by forced or insincere praise. The power of the cross is to “demonstrate God’s love” (Rom. 5:8), which overcomes evil by changing hearts and winning genuine worship. It’s love is not satisfied by a final condemnation, but by a willing reconciliation that ends hell’s rebellion (cf. Isa.53:11). Submission can be forced, but “reconciliation” is only real, when rebels sincerely embrace Christ. Indeed, if they themselves are brought to genuinely choose Christ as Lord, then they are by definition “reconciled.”

    7. Many of Paul’s passages similarly sound like God’s victory will bring reconciliation to all men. Romans 11:32 “God has bound everyone to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”
    5:18,19 Through Jesus’ obedience, “all men… will be made righteous (future tense)… resulting in justification &amp; life for all.” 8:21,22 “The whole creation… will be brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.”
    1 Cor. 15:22,28 “As in Adam all die, so in Christ, all will be made alive…so that God may be all in all.”
    2 Cor. 5:19 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”

    8. Some argue that this later confession will be too obvious to ‘count.’ But the Gospel denies that our response is meritorious or earns God’s grace. He is glorified when He provokes our response (Phil. 2:13).

    9. If Paul is describing a forced confession, it cancels the argument that God can’t or won’t achieve his goals by overriding our ‘free will.’ So, does God have ability to bring all of us where we need to be?

    Which view seems closest to yours?
    A. God gives us free will, so that “forcing” a true confession in us will violate what he gloriously seeks. (Thus, Arminians say, God’s love wants to save all, but can’t or won’t, since that would violate our integrity.)
    B. In the end, God has the power and ability to achieve in every creature all of His glorious purposes. (But, Calvinists say, God won’t save all, because He chooses that it’s best to only love, die, and save some.)
    C. Both A &amp; B affirm vital truths, but are wrong in what they agree on. God loves all and it won’t fail to achieve his will. For He has the ability to ultimately bring the genuine response that is appropriate to his saving purpose and glory. (See the earlier paper on the purpose of His “destruction” of sinners.)

    We are designed for God, so that we can never find our deepest needs, identity, or the joy we seek until we find it in Him. Further, God’s ability is unlimited to bring painful lessons as well as demonstrations of the superiority of his love and way. So, his advantage is compelling. There is no need to ”force” us by some kind of “puppetry” into an outcome for which we all yearn. Since He only needs to help a person “come to himself” (Lk. 15:17), His sovereign power has an ability that can’t ultimately be defeated."


    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/philippians-2-9-11-a-universalist-case/1763/5
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    As usual, wrong, wrong, wrong. I did not say anything like that. I suggest you refrain from deliberately misquoting me.
    .....You still have not shown me where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself is quoted as saying that either one will, definitely, save all mankind good, evil whatever. You can't even cite any OT or NT writer who says, without specifically quoting either God or Jesus, that either one will definitely save all mankind. Let us review one of your proof texts. Does it say that Jesus will definitely save all mankind no matter what?

    1 John 2:17
    (17) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
    Where does John say that the unrighteous will also definitely abide forever?
    1 John 2:22-23
    (22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    (23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    I still don't see John saying that those who deny the Son and do not have the Father will definitely be saved.
    1 John 3:8
    (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    Where does John say those who sin and are of the devil will dedfinitely be saved?
    1 John 3:10
    (10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    Where does John say children of the devil will definitely be saved?
    1 John 3:15
    (15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
    Where does John say that murderers will have eternal life?
    1 John 4:3
    (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    Where does John say those with the spirit of the antichrist will definitely be saved?
    1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    1 John 5:10
    (10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    1 John 5:12
    (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    Where does John say that those that do not have the Son and do not have life will definitely be saved?
    Now let us review this "proof text."

    John 3:17
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    σώζω/sozo the word translated "might be saved" is aorist, active, subjunctive. The 'subjunctive" mood is the mood of probability and pontentiality not definite. If Jesus had meant that the entire world would definitely be saved He would have used the indicative mood as He did in Matthew 10:22, Mark 5:34, Luke 8:48, John 10:9 and other verses.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to that reasoning, if Jesus had meant those believing in Him shall definitely not perish (Jn.3:16) He would have used the indicative mood. Which shows that your reasoning is erroneous.



    What your comment neglects to say is that the subjunctive in John 3:17 is used with the hina, making it not one of "pontentially" (potential) but, but of "purpose or result".

    When the subjunctive occurs with the particle hina, as in Rom.11:32 & Gal.2:16, for examples, it does not indicate "possibility & potentiality" but rather "purpose or result". "When hina is used with the subjunctive, the mood changes from one of possibility or probability, to one of purpose or result." http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

    “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” (Gal.2:16, NASB)

    "Again, “may” here is an idiomatic way of translating purpose in English. The purpose of belief is justification. Indeed, one can also see here the hina clause being used to indicate result. Paul, by using the subjunctive, is not intending to communicate any kind of uncertainty with regard to justification. Rather, by using the subjunctive in a hina clause, he is proclaiming that our faith in Christ has its purpose in our justification, and also has its end result in our justification." http://salvationbygrace.org/current-qa/understanding-a-hina-clause/

    The subjunctive with the hina also occurs in both John 3:16 & John 3:17:

    For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

    In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

    Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

    For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

    There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

    “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

    BTW, evidently EO scholar David Bentley Hart thinks John 3:17 is a clear proof text for universalism:

    "While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

    https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/02/11/anent-garry-wills-and-the-dbh-version/
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)
    and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)
    And the world passes away, and the lust of it; the but one doing the will of the God, abides for the age. (Diaglott)
    "into the age" (Greek-English Interlinear):
    http://studybible.info/
    "into the eon" (Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear):
    http://studybible.info/version/

    If sinful desires (or lusts) are "passing away", why would God keep anyone in "hell" whose sinful desires have passed away?

    Can all evil lusts pass away & people still be burning in hell? Does the passing away of lusts require that such people are either endlessly annihilated or saved?

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death
    is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).

    From a universalist perspective, John may be speaking of the "special" (1 Tim.4:10) salvation for those who are "doing the will of God" (1 Jn.2:17) in this life, since he has already made universal salvation clear in his gospel & elsewhere (2:2; 4:14) in this same epistle:

    1 Jn.2:2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    1 Jn.4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    God is love (1 Jn.4:8,16)

    Here is another example of the "special" salvation of those who believe in this world:

    To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and ESPECIALLY of those who believe. (1 Tim.4:10)

    Below is another universalist perspective of the 1 Jn.2:17 given by Oldmantook.

    =======================================



    and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)
    And the world is passing away, and its desire; but the one doing the will of God abides to the age. (BLB)

    To force the meaning of eternal on to this verse is unnecessary and adds to its meaning beyond what is simply stated in the verse itself. The context of 1 Jn 2:17 helps to
    determine its meaning. The Apostle John warns believers not to love the world in vs.15-16. Verse 17 therefore simply states that he who does the will of God which can only
    take place when we are living - in this present age; i.e. church age. To not love the world and instead do the will of God is to live/abide in this present church age. Here
    John is restating another familiar verse which he wrote earlier in his gospel that as branches we are to abide in the vine. As believers we are to live/remain/abide in Him
    in this present church age; instead of loving the world. Hence no reference to eternity in this verse.


    ---


    This verse is not referencing a future state of eternity "which follows" as Cyprian interprets. Rather the verb tenses employed by the Apostle John indicate that he is referring
    to the believer's present state of life and existence - not some future state. The word poiōn is a present tense participle which should read "whoever is doing the will of God"
    ...indicative of ongoing action. Thus the believer who is obedient and doing God's will is assured of age-during life referring to this present church age; not eternal life "which
    follows" according to Cyprian. In other words we presently possess life with Christ as long as we continue to do His will and abide in Him during this present age. This interpretation
    is reinforced by the verb menei which is in the present tense. Instead of "lives" it should read "living." Therefore whoever is doing the will of God is living according to the age
    which refers to this present church age. That is why I wrote earlier that this verse has nothing to do with a future eternal existence. Rather the verb tenses indicate that believers
    have age-during life at the present time/age as long as we continue to abide in Him much like branches which continue to abide in the vine.


    ---



    Being the OP, I assume you've read my reply to Der Alter regarding the verb tenses employed in 1 Jn 2:17? If so you would know that I agree with you that John is encouraging us to be faithful now by the use of the present tense verb. As I explained earlier, the present tense verbs indicate that John is referring to living obedient lives now in this
    present church age now; not abiding/living in a future state of eternity. If John were referring to "eternal" life as you claim he could have employed the word meneite which is
    in the future tense which would then read "you will live forever." The fact that he uses the present tense menei indicates that he does not have "eternity" in mind as you propose.
    One must be careful to not read one's own interpretation into the text beyond what the text itself states.

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...o-define-aionios-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2



    Yes the Greek verb tenses unlike English, refer primarily to action rather than time. The present tense with the indicative mood represents contemporaneous action, as opposed to action in the past or future. In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action. When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time. It does not reference or "look to the future" as you put it.

    As I noted above, with respect to 1 Jn 2:17, no reference to the future can be made since the present tense coupled with the indicative mood denotes present time. Thus you are barking up the wrong tree, so to speak, when you inquire "how far into the future?" Rather this verse describes believers who presently abide/remain as having life in the vine - in this age/time. It is describing life in the Spirit which we presently have as long as we presently abide and obey His commands and not give in to the desires of the world. He presently remains/abides in us as long as we presently remain/abide in Him. John repeats this idea one chapter later in 1 Jn 3:24:

    "The one who habitually keeps His commandments [obeying His word and following His precepts, abides and] remains in Him, and He in him. By this we know and have the proof that He [really] abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us [as a gift]." AMP
    The desires of the world are indeed passing away, but those who do the will of God remain presently attached to the vine. Properly understood, no reference at all to eternity.

    There is a problem with your argument as I see it. Indeed you cite passages where it makes sense that only "forever" fits. I don't have a problem with that. However in order for your argument to be a valid one, you would have to demonstrate that forever - always and without exception - always means forever/eternity. Just because lasting for an age is a terrible fit for many of these verses as you say, it does not automatically entail that it is a terrible fit for all of these applicable verses as alternate explanations/interpretations do exist. I think the following link, illustrates the point. According to this poster's opinion, "...the teaching of universalism does not stand or fall with the translation of the word aiónios, while the doctrine of endless torment can only be proven true if it can be shown, that aiónios means strict infinity or endlessness in all occasions....
    a look on the phrase eis ton aióna

    see post 66 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...o-define-aionios-based-on-aion.8040292/page-4
     
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