Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Der Alte

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ClementofA said:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN
.…
The usual out-of-context UR proof text which I have already addressed before and it does not address any of the 23 vss. linked to in the post you quoted.
 
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ClementofA

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The usual out-of-context UR proof text which I have already addressed before and it does not address any of the 23 vss. linked to in the post you quoted.

It addresses Rev.14:11.

As for your lists, you know very well that i've addressed them many times, e.g.:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>The reason i have to keep repeating myself is because you refuse to answer the questions.heck you even said you did not understand the question. so i said it 3 different ways in my last post so that there would not be any misunderstanding and now you complain about it. Just look at how long it took you to finally make an answer to the prostitute question.
However you gave the same answer I did about those other sinners and yet you disagreed with my answer. Sorry you cannot have it both ways, if this answer is good for the prostitutes it is good for the rest of sinners.
However just to point out to the readers you are adding to what the scripture actually says (you seem to have a habit of doing that) as the word ONLY is not in those scriptures
.<end>
Matthew 21:28-32
(28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
(31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
(32) For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Note the parable which precedes your out-of-context proof text, vss. 28-30. Vs. 31 is the application of the parable. The context requires the word "only" because misguided people, who believe that everybody, sinner or believer, will be saved, no matter what, try to manipulate Jesus' words. They try to make vs. 31 mean all harlots and publicans throughout history, past, present and future, will enter the kingdom. But the vs. clearly says "the publicans and the harlots believed [past tense] him [John]"[in this life] not some after death second chance that is why they went into the kingdom.
.....Now address these 23 passages, each and every one. [post #60]
if the context required the word only then only would have been in the context, you simply add it to the scripture in order for them to say what you want them to say. Your not suppose to do that.

I am not going to address your 23 passages because you already disagree with YLT which tells a different story then the erroneous one you trying to sell.

yet every one of those 23 passages has actually already been addressed when I asked you this

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?
Aionios is used of both the punishment and life, so either it has the same meaning or it does not.
Which is it?

which you refuse to answer.
 
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Pneuma3

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You answer the question. I'm not here to play 20 questions. You should know what I believe based on my position on the words aion/aionios. You tell me what you think they mean and I will prove you wrong
23 passages. [post #60]
Too quote a post you want to respond to click the click +quote at the lower right hand corner and quoted post appears in the reply area. If you want to separate some parts type quote blocks around the text you want to separate from the other like this [QU0TE] to begin and [/QU0TE] to end. And it will appear as

Thanks for the info on quoting DA.

Yes I do know what you believe, but when I said you believe death was co-eternal with God you said you have never said that.

So I was correct, you do believe death is co-eternal with God, and had no beginning and is without end.

Interesting, got any proof of that?
 
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Pneuma3

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The usual out-of-context UR proof text which I have already addressed before and it does not address any of the 23 vss. linked to in the post you quoted.

You gave 23 verses that you believe makes aionois to mean eternal.
I give you 1 scripture that tells us you are incorrect in your assessment.

So here is your answer to the 23 verses.

Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.

Therefore DA if you are not teaching what we are commanded to teach then you are obviously in error in you understanding of those 23 verses.
 
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Der Alte

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<P3>Thanks for the info on quoting DA.
Yes I do know what you believe, but when I said you believe death was co-eternal with God you said you have never said that.
So I was correct, you do believe death is co-eternal with God, and had no beginning and is without end.
Interesting, got any proof of that?<end>
I have NEVER said that death is co-eternal with God because I don't believe that death is eternal at all. See link below. To be aionios/eternal does not require no beginning and no end. There is no second death. Not even one verse says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they/it dies.
For αἰώνιος/eternal see my [post #586] this thread.
 
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Der Alte

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<P3>You gave 23 verses that you believe makes aionois to mean eternal.
I give you 1 scripture that tells us you are incorrect in your assessment.
So here is your answer to the 23 verses.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.
Therefore DA if you are not teaching what we are commanded to teach then you are obviously in error in you understanding of those 23 verse
s.<end>
Wrong same old song and dance. Nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Once again I have 31,172 verses in my Bible, you evidently only have one. That is known as proof texting, someone citing one out-of-context verse which they think trumps every other verse in the Bible. No different than JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, UPCI, OP, INC et alia.
.....The ONLY way you can prove me wrong is to address each one of the 23 verses and show with grammatical evidence that all 23 conclusions are wrong. Quoting or referring to 1 Tim 4:10 does not prove anything about the 23 verses. See my [post #60] this thread.

 
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Der Alte

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if the context required the word only then only would have been in the context, you simply add it to the scripture in order for them to say what you want them to say. Your not suppose to do that.
Showing you have absolutely no knowledge of how language works. The complete passage clearly shows that Jesus was only talking about the harlots and publicans who saw John and believed, NOT all publicans and harlots present, past and future. Sorry if the truth disproves your assumptions/presuppositions.
P3 said:
I am not going to address your 23 passages because you already disagree with YLT which tells a different story then the erroneous one you trying to sell.
I don't trust Young because he was self taught and his "definitions" do not show any sources he consulted as does BDAG. That is the way translating languages works, not eenie, meenie, mine, mo and pick a definitions that fits one's assumptions/presuppositions.

yet every one of those 23 passages has actually already been addressed when I asked you this
Totally false! Referring to 1 Tim 4:10 over and over does not address anything except your assumptions/presuppositions.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse? Aionios is used of both the punishment and life, so either it has the same meaning or it does not. Which is it? which you refuse to answer.
I have answered that question at least 4 times in this thread.
See my [post #25] this thread. Also posts #136, 532 and 542.
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>Thanks for the info on quoting DA.
Yes I do know what you believe, but when I said you believe death was co-eternal with God you said you have never said that.
So I was correct, you do believe death is co-eternal with God, and had no beginning and is without end.
Interesting, got any proof of that?<end>

I have NEVER said that death is co-eternal with God because I don't believe that death is eternal at all. See link below. To be aionios/eternal does not require no beginning and no end. There is no second death. Not even one verse says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they/it dies.
For αἰώνιος/eternal see my [post #586] this thread.

You seem to be having a hard time answering this question....

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does aionios have the same meaning in both occurrences in this verse? a simple yes or no is all that is required.

If you say yes then you are equating the punishment with the life, which is without beginning and without end. Which is what I see you saying.

And the reason I see you saying this is because when clement pointed out to you they do not have to mean the same you argued against his post.

So which is it?
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>You gave 23 verses that you believe makes aionois to mean eternal.
I give you 1 scripture that tells us you are incorrect in your assessment.
So here is your answer to the 23 verses.
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.
Therefore DA if you are not teaching what we are commanded to teach then you are obviously in error in you understanding of those 23 verse
s.<end>
Wrong same old song and dance. Nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Once again I have 31,172 verses in my Bible, you evidently only have one. That is known as proof texting, someone citing one out-of-context verse which they think trumps every other verse in the Bible. No different than JW, LDS, WWCG, UU, UPCI, OP, INC et alia.
.....The ONLY way you can prove me wrong is to address each one of the 23 verses and show with grammatical evidence that all 23 conclusions are wrong. Quoting or referring to 1 Tim 4:10 does not prove anything about the 23 verses. See my [post #60] this thread.

Before you say something is out of context you should really read it in context.

Paul is talking to Tim about doctrine and telling him to hold fast to the doctrine given him and not to be seduced by what he calls the doctrine of devils. Paul goes on to tell Tim exactly what doctrine we are commanded to teach which is...

Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe.

Which just happen to be also what the what all the Prophets taught.

Acts 3:21



Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Jn.1:29

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


What those who heard Jesus speak taught.

Jn.4:42

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.




and what the apostle taught.

2co.5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



1 jn.2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



1 jn.4:14

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the world.

Just what greater testimony do you need before you will believe Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world?

And that is why you are wrong DA, it is not because I say so, it is because of the witnesses above who testify that Jesus Christ IS the saviour of the world.
 
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Pneuma3

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Showing you have absolutely no knowledge of how language works. The complete passage clearly shows that Jesus was only talking about the harlots and publicans who saw John and believed, NOT all publicans and harlots present, past and future. Sorry if the truth disproves your assumptions/presuppositions.

I don't trust Young because he was self taught and his "definitions" do not show any sources he consulted as does BDAG. That is the way translating languages works, not eenie, meenie, mine, mo and pick a definitions that fits one's assumptions/presuppositions.


Totally false! Referring to 1 Tim 4:10 over and over does not address anything except your assumptions/presuppositions.

I have answered that question at least 4 times in this thread.
See my [post #25] this thread. Also posts #136, 532 and 542.

Yet you forget the every knee shall bow in worship and every tongue confess in adoration that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

God gets no glory from lip serves.


So what if he was self taught that does not make him wrong and if you look at rotherham emphasized bible you will see he also defines aion and its adjective as age-during or age-abiding.

And 1 Tim 4:10 does indeed disprove what you believe DA because you do not believe what we are commanded to teach.

So as you do not believe what we are commanded to teach what then can be said of your understanding of the scriptures.
 
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Pneuma3

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<P3>Thanks for the info on quoting DA.
Yes I do know what you believe, but when I said you believe death was co-eternal with God you said you have never said that.
So I was correct, you do believe death is co-eternal with God, and had no beginning and is without end.
Interesting, got any proof of that?<end>

I have NEVER said that death is co-eternal with God because I don't believe that death is eternal at all. See link below. To be aionios/eternal does not require no beginning and no end. There is no second death. Not even one verse says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they/it dies.
For αἰώνιος/eternal see my [post #586] this thread.

You might want to explain what I highlighted because the second death is mentioned in scripture.
 
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Der Alte

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You might want to explain what I highlighted because the second death is mentioned in scripture.
....."The lake of fire" is called the "second death" but can you show me any verse which says that anyone or anything is cast into the LOF then they die?
.....There are three living beings thrown into the LOF, one the false prophet is a person, but none of them have died a first time and they don't die in the LOF. They are tormented day and night for ever and ever. No death. Revelation 20:10
.....Death and hell are cast into the LOF, which is the second death, but neither are alive and have not and cannot die a first death so they cannot die a second death. No death. Revelation 20:14.
So show that verse which says anyone or anything dies in the LOF.
 
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ClementofA

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....."The lake of fire" is called the "second death" but can you show me any verse which says that anyone or anything is cast into the LOF then they die?
.....There are three living beings thrown into the LOF, one the false prophet is a person, but none of them have died a first time and they don't die in the LOF. They are tormented day and night for ever and ever. No death. Revelation 20:10
.....Death and hell are cast into the LOF, which is the second death, but neither are alive and have not and cannot die a first death so they cannot die a second death. No death. Revelation 20:14.
So show that verse which says anyone or anything dies in the LOF.

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

---
 
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Der Alte

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You might want to explain what I highlighted because the second death is mentioned in scripture.
The lake of fire passages, in context.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death.
.....But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there was no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the LOF in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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Pneuma3

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....."The lake of fire" is called the "second death" but can you show me any verse which says that anyone or anything is cast into the LOF then they die?
.....There are three living beings thrown into the LOF, one the false prophet is a person, but none of them have died a first time and they don't die in the LOF. They are tormented day and night for ever and ever. No death. Revelation 20:10
.....Death and hell are cast into the LOF, which is the second death, but neither are alive and have not and cannot die a first death so they cannot die a second death. No death. Revelation 20:14.
So show that verse which says anyone or anything dies in the LOF.
You do see the words day and night correct, thus forever and ever must deal with time just as the literal translation say age and age during.
 
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Pneuma3

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The lake of fire passages, in context.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death.
.....But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there was no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the LOF in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Da everyone will be salted with fire, everyone.



Look at the first two verses you posted.



Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



These where written to the churches and speak of the difference between the overcomer and those who do not overcome, yet are believers in God and Jesus.



The overcomer is a type of the firstfruits unto God.

The firstfruits are a promise of the whole harvest.



Now there is a natural death (physical death) and there is a spiritual death (dying to self).



Those Christians as well as everyone else who have not died to self in this life are those that will be hurt of the second death.



Those who have overcome and died to self or killed off the old man shall not be hurt of the second death because the second death has no power to hurt them, they have already died to self.



Those scriptures are not saying the overcomer does not go through the fire, they are saying that while in the fire they will not be hurt of it. For they ( the overcomer ) are the righteous among us who shall dwell with everlasting burnings.



Is.33





14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?







15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;





Brother if one is already dead to sin/the old man, the first half of the cross (death) cannot hurt them because they have already been resurrected in LIFE.



It is via the CROSS the world is judged and that CROSS is the power of God unto salvation.
 
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Der Alte

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You do see the words day and night correct, thus forever and ever must deal with time just as the literal translation say age and age during.
Please explain to mean what exactly makes a translation "literal?" It has been my experience that a "literal translation" is one which supports someone's assumptions/presuppositions. Your argument is a nonsequitur. I see the phrase day and night as further emphasis that εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon means forever and ever, just as the early church understood it.
Clement [ 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.​

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology Chap VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
First Apology Chap.LII
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
Justin Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. IV
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXVII. —
2. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.
Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV Chap XXVI
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language:92 thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal.
Tatian’s [a.d. 110-172.] Address to the Greeks. Chap. XIII. — Theory of the Soul’s Immortality.
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal.37 Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.
Clement of Alexandria [a.d. 153-193-217.] Exhortation to the Heathen. Chap X
For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Chap. XLVIII. Part First Apology
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
Tertullian VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chap. XXXIV.
We, however, so understand the soul’s immortality as to believe it “lost,” not in the sense of destruction, but of punishment, that is, in hell.
Commodianus [a.d. 240] The Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline.
Chap XXIX
By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Refutation of All Heresies. Chap XXIII
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unqenchable fire.
Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
9. And therefore with reason in these plagues that occur, there are not wanting God’s stripes and scourges; and since they are of no avail in this matter, and do not convert individuals to God by such terror of destructions, there remains after all the eternal dungeon, and the continual fire, and the everlasting punishment; nor shall the groaning of the suppliants be heard there, because here the terror of the angry God was not heard,
24. An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering.
What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.

 
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Der Alte

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Da everyone will be salted with fire, everyone.
Look at the first two verses you posted.
Where did this "salted" come from. None of the scripture I or you posted says anything about "salted."
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
<P3>These where written to the churches and speak of the difference between the overcomer and those who do not overcome, yet are believers in God and Jesus.
The overcomer is a type of the firstfruits unto God.
The firstfruits are a promise of the whole harvest.
Now there is a natural death (physical death) and there is a spiritual death (dying to self).
Those Christians as well as everyone else who have not died to self in this life are those that will be hurt of the second death.

Those who have overcome and died to self or killed off the old man shall not be hurt of the second death because the second death has no power to hurt them, they have already died to self.
Those scriptures are not saying the overcomer does not go through the fire, they are saying that while in the fire they will not be hurt of it. For they ( the overcomer ) are the righteous among us who shall dwell with everlasting burnings.

Is.33
14The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
15He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Brother if one is already dead to sin/the old man, the first half of the cross (death) cannot hurt them because they have already been resurrected in LIFE.
It is via the CROSS the world is judged and that CROSS is the power of God unto salvation.
<end>
A lot of speculation and commentary with no, zero, none scripture to support it mixed together with bits and pieces of other out-of-context scripture. Quoting bits and pieces of scripture out-of-context and and stringing them together someone can make the Bible say almost anything they want. There are still 21 verses of scripture from Rev you have not addressed.
 
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ClementofA

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I see the phrase day and night as further emphasis that εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon means forever and ever, just as the early church understood it.
Clement [ 30-100] The First Epistle to the Corinthians.
Chap. XI. — Continuation. Lot.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.



Checkout the - orthodox - universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church):

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church

If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians
(immo quam plurimi)."

"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.

I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.

It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.

Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Scholars directory, with list of publications:

Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory



Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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