Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

ClementofA

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The passage says nothing about modes of punishment. That is just a smoke screen trying to divert attention away for what the passage actually says..

The passage refers to capital punishment under Moses' law which, BTW, was generally by means of stoning:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

The comparison is "death without mercy" and "much sorer punishment." It does not say "much sorer punishment" than any of the modes of capital punishment in Israel.


To say "death without mercy" does not relate a degree of "sore[ness]" of punishment. Therefore it does not contrast or compare to a "sorer punishment". OTOH, death under Moses' law, generally by stoning, does relate a "sore[ness]" of punishment. So the comparison (or contrast) is between (1) such a sore punishment, like stoning and (2) a "sorer" punishment.

You can post this nonsense as many times as you want to but it does not change what the scripture actually says. "much sorer punishment" than "death without mercy."

I'm quite aware that nonsense doesn't "change what the scripture actually says." No matter where or who it comes from. Thanks for sharing.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html


 
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Pneuma3

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I will say this only once. Keep your responses directed toward the topic and refrain from insulting comments.

This says specifically "tax collectors and prostitutes." Here is the list that Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God "unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditionists, heresies, envious, murders, drunkenness, revellers, whoremongers, unclean person, covetous, corruption." I don't see "tax collectors and prostitutes"

You are the one who has to PROVE that the 29 groups listed above will be changed and enter the kingdom of God. You have not and cannot do that.

No you have not reconciled anything. If the 29 groups I mentioned would sometime in the future be allowed to enter the kingdom of God. I wonder why Paul did not say anything about it in 1 Cor, Gal and Eph?

And my answer is you ignore that the words of God also came right out and said specifically "the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditionists, heresies, envious, murders, drunkenness, revellers, whoremongers, unclean person, covetous, corruption." shall not inherit the kingdom of God. in
1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5
.....And nowhere does scripture say these specific groups will inherit the kingdom of God. If Paul knew that God was going to ultimately save everyone no matter what why didn't he come right out and say it in these four passages?

No I find it totally incredulous that you say that what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 is not actually recorded in scripture. As I said your Bible only has one verse mine has 31,172

you have got to be kidding right? you don't see the correlation? If we take those scriptures in the literal fashion the way you are doing no one will ever enter the kingdom of heaven, for we are all sinners.

And your understanding says prostitutes enter into the kingdom of heaven, thus you teach sinners enter into the kingdom of heaven in the state of sin, at least my understanding has God changing them. Gee i wonder which understanding is more in line with scripture.
 
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Pneuma3

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Most people I have come across believe the scriptures are the word of God and that everything we need is recorded in the scriptures. Yet when the scriptures when the scripture define how a word is used in scripture if it runs contrary to their doctrine they run to man to explain how a certain word is to be used. They don't rely on the scriptures, they rely on man.



Here are two such examples.



When the scriptures state every knee shall bow/kampto and kampto is only used in honour and religious veneration in scripture people refuse to believe it and run to mans understanding of kampto, stating that it means compulsory bowing.



Yet the word for compulsory bowing would be the word sunkampto not kampto.



So are we suppose to follow mans understanding of how kampto is used our are we to believe how scripture uses the word.





The other example is the word aion and its adjective, many hold that aion and its adjective aionios means both age and eternity (without beginning and without end).



Yet scripture testifies that the aions have a beginning.



Hebrews 1:2

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds/aions.



The aions were MADE.



1 Corinthians 2:7

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world/aion unto our glory:



BEFORE the aion.







2 Timothy 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,





BEFORE the aionios BEGAN.





Scripture testifies that the aions have an end.



Hebrews 9:26

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world/aion hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.



The aion ENDS





1 Corinthians 10:11

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world/aion are come.



The aion ENDS





Matthew 24:3

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world/aion?





The aion ENDS.





Thus we can see that scripture testifies for itself that the aions have a beginning and end.



Thus scripture defines aion/aionios as having a beginning and an end.

So what right does man have to redefine what scripture proclaims and say that aion/aionios is without beginning and without end?



Think about it, if there is such a thing as eternal torment that would mean the torment was without a beginning, yet according to those who believe in eternal torment the torment has a starting point after the great white throne judgment.



For those who believe scriptures talk about annihilation we see God annihilating Sodom and Gomorrah in olam/aionios fire way back in the OT, yet we see in the NT we are told that Sodom and Gomorrah will be judge in the day of judgment. So how can that which has been annihilated 1000's of years ago be judged in the day of judgment? And how can there be a greater punishment?



Lam.4:6

For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
 
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Der Alte

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Most people I have come across believe the scriptures are the word of God and that everything we need is recorded in the scriptures. Yet when the scriptures when the scripture define how a word is used in scripture if it runs contrary to their doctrine they run to man to explain how a certain word is to be used. They don't rely on the scriptures, they rely on man.
Here are two such examples.
When the scriptures state every knee shall bow/kampto and kampto is only used in honour and religious veneration in scripture people refuse to believe it and run to mans understanding of kampto, stating that it means compulsory bowing.
The same heterodox nonsense. This post is full of so many errors and misrepresentation I don't know where to begin. I posted 23 passages in other threads which have not been addressed. Now a new thread about the same topics. This post makes a broad brush claim about what "most people" do/do not do. Logical fallacy appeal to popularity. Next the meaning of kampto is misrepresented. Kampto is NOT "only used in honor and religious veneration." Here is the complete definition from BDAG which was posted before but ignored because it didn't fit someone's agenda.
κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press
.​
I do not see the words "only used in honour and religious veneration" anywhere in this definition.
Yet the word for compulsory bowing would be the word sunkampto not kampto.
Wrong! The prefix σύν/sun does NOT mean "compulsory" it means "with."

σύν sun
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
So are we suppose to follow mans understanding of how kampto is used our are we to believe how scripture uses the word.
People who ignore all the evidence I posted above and continue to promote false information are following man's understanding.
The other example is the word aion and its adjective, many hold that aion and its adjective aionios means both age and eternity (without beginning and without end).
Yet scripture testifies that the aions have a beginning.
Ignoring all the evidence I have posted and repeating the same arguments over and over and over does not make them valid. You told me in another threat "because 'aion' referred to God who is eternal does not mean 'aion' means 'eternal.'" I will use your reasoning here just because the phrase "end of the aion" is used that does not mean "aion" is finite.
Thus scripture defines aion/aionios as having a beginning and an end.
Wrong! That scripture sometimes speaks of the "end of the aion" that does not "define" "aion" An adjective or adjectival phrase "describes." A reference is not defining. Here is an example of "aion" being "defined" by an adjectival phrase.
Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]​
In this verse “aionas” is paired with “without end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal. And I can and have provided 22 more passages where aion/aionios is defined by other adjectives or adjectival phrases which have been ignored.


 
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Pneuma3

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The same heterodox nonsense. This post is full of so many errors and misrepresentation I don't know where to begin. I posted 23 passages in other threads which have not been addressed. Now a new thread about the same topics. This post makes a broad brush claim about what "most people" do/do not do. Logical fallacy appeal to popularity. Next the meaning of kampto is misrepresented. Kampto is NOT "only used in honor and religious veneration." Here is the complete definition from BDAG which was posted before but ignored because it didn't fit someone's agenda.
κάμπτω fut. κάμψω; 1 aor. ἔκαμψα; aor. pass. 3 pl. ἐκάμφθησαν Job 9:13, inf. καμφθῆναι 4 Macc 3:4. (Hom. et al.; pap, LXX, Philo).
① trans. to bend or incline some part of the body, bend, bow freq. as gesture of respect or devotion: τὸν τράχηλον the neck (Aesop, Fab. 452 p. 501, 12f P. ἔκαμψα τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ τράχηλον) B 3:2 (Is 58:5). γόνυ (also pl.) bend the knee as a sign of (religious) devotion (LXX) τινί before someone (SibOr 3, 616f) τῇ Βάαλ Ro 11:4 (3 Km 19:18). Also πρός τινα Eph 3:14. Fig. κ. τὰ γόνατα τῆς καρδίας (s. γόνυ) 1 Cl 57:1.
② intr. (Polyaenus 3, 4, 3 ἔκαμψεν=he bent inward) to assume a bending posture, bend (itself) ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ every knee shall bend before me Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23). ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ when the name of Jesus is proclaimed Phil 2:10 (also infl. by Is 45:23).—B. 542. Renehan ’75, 115f. DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 507). Chicago: University of Chicago Press
.​
I do not see the words "only used in honour and religious veneration" anywhere in this definition.

Wrong! The prefix σύν/sun does NOT mean "compulsory" it means "with."

σύν sun
A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.

People who ignore all the evidence I posted above and continue to promote false information are following man's understanding.

Ignoring all the evidence I have posted and repeating the same arguments over and over and over does not make them valid. You told me in another threat "because 'aion' referred to God who is eternal does not mean 'aion' means 'eternal.'" I will use your reasoning here just because the phrase "end of the aion" is used that does not mean "aion" is finite.

Wrong! That scripture sometimes speaks of the "end of the aion" that does not "define" "aion" An adjective or adjectival phrase "describes." A reference is not defining. Here is an example of "aion" being "defined" by an adjectival phrase.

Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionas” is paired with “without end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal. And I can and have provided 22 more passages where aion/aionios is defined by other adjectives or adjectival phrases which have been ignored.


Is BDAG scripture? NO. yet you have to run to it instead of using how scripture defines the word.
So what you are saying is BDAG defines a word used in scripture better then the scriptures them-self.
 
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Pneuma3

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and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'



And how long does He reign?



For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.



Then what happens?



And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
 
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Der Alte

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Strong's Number:4781
Greek: sunkampto
Bow, Bowed (Verb):
signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force
,
Once again you are proven wrong. You did not identify your source. συγκάμπτω/sugkampto, is the word in question not sunkampto. It only occurs once in the NT Rom 10:11. Here is the definition of the word.
συγκάμπτω 1 aor. συνέκαμψα (Hippocr., X., Pla. et al.; SIG 1168, 28 συγκάμψας τὰν χῆρα; LXX) (cause to) bend τὸν νῶτον αὐτῶν σύγκαμψον cause their back(s) to bend Ro 11:10 (Ps 68:24); Lk 13:11 D (for συγκύπτω).—M-M. s.v. συνκάμπτω.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 951). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Compulsory is not in the definition at all. And in Rom 10:11 the context shows it is not compulsory.
NIV Rom 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
KJV Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Let or may their eyes be darkened and their backs be bent forever.
 
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Der Alte

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and you still have not explained why you believe prostitutes can enter the kingdom in their state of sin.
backed yourself into a corner on that one didn't you
.
Nope! You're the one in the corner. You first amigo go back and address the 23 verses I posted first.
 
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Der Alte

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Is BDAG scripture? NO. yet you have to run to it instead of using how scripture defines the word.
So what you are saying is BDAG defines a word used in scripture better then the scriptures them-self.
A lexicon is where people who know what they are doing look for definitions of words. Please show me where the definition of any word I have quoted from BDAG is proven wrong by scripture? You cannot do that because you earlier shot yourself in the foot by saying that aion' does not mean eternal just because it refers to God who is eternal. You cannot show me how any word is "defined" by scripture without contradicting this claim.
You've simply drawn a wrong conclusion, that because aion is used in conjunction with God and God is eternal then aion must mean eternal. That, however, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy.
 
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ClementofA

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Once again you are proven wrong. You did not identify your source. συγκάμπτω/sugkampto, is the word in question not sunkampto. It only occurs once in the NT Rom 10:11. Here is the definition of the word.
συγκάμπτω 1 aor. συνέκαμψα (Hippocr., X., Pla. et al.; SIG 1168, 28 συγκάμψας τὰν χῆρα; LXX) (cause to) bend τὸν νῶτον αὐτῶν σύγκαμψον cause their back(s) to bend Ro 11:10 (Ps 68:24); Lk 13:11 D (for συγκύπτω).—M-M. s.v. συνκάμπτω.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 951). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Compulsory is not in the definition at all. And in Rom 10:11 the context shows it is not compulsory.
NIV Rom 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
KJV Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Let or may their eyes be darkened and their backs be bent forever.

Rom.11:10 Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually." 11 I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy. 15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead? 26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." 27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. 32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." 36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for* Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! (CLV)* literally, "into"



"Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4781: συγκάμπτω

συγκάμπτω (T WH συνκάμπτω (cf. σύν, II. at the end)): 1 aorist imperative σύγκαμψον; to bend together, to bend completely: τόν νῶτον τίνος (A. V. to bow down one's back) i. e. metaphorically, to subject one to error and hardness of heart, a figure taken from the bowing of the back by captives compelled to pass under the yoke, Romans 11:10, from Psalm 68:24 (). (Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, others.)" http://biblehub.com/greek/4781.htm

"According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1"

1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75. https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) Let their eyes be darkened.—In the Apostle’s sense, “Let them be spiritually blinded, incapable of discerning or receiving the truth, and let their backs be bowed with the yoke of spiritual thraldom!” The Hebrew is, “Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not, and make their loins continually to shake.”

Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:10. Σκοτισθήτωσαν.—σύγκαμψον) They, who have their eyes darkened, and their back bent, are sure to stumble, Romans 11:11, and rush into a snare.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And bow down their back alway - The Hebrew Psa 69:23 is, "Let their loins totter or shake," that is, as one does when he has on him a heavy burden. The apostle has retained this sense. It means, let them be called to bear heavy and oppressive burdens; let them be subjected to toil or servitude, as a reward for their sins. That this had come upon the Jews in the time of Paul is clear; and it is further clear that it came upon them, as it was implied in the psalm, in consequence of their treatment of the Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
and bow down their back alway; which may denote their subjection and bondage to the Romans, when taken and carried captive by them; who laid very heavy burdens on them, which bowed down their backs indeed, multitudes of them being condemned to the mines; or this may design the general disposition of the minds of these people, which are bowed to the earth, for they mind nothing but earth and earthly things; the acquiring of which they are bent upon at any rate, and are infamous for their earthly mindedness, covetousness, extortion, usury, tricking, and over reaching: or this phrase may be expressive of that trembling, distress, horror, and despair, which shall seize them; especially when the son of man comes in the clouds of heaven, and they that have pierced him shall behold him, and wail because of trim; for in the Psalms the words are, "make their loins continually to shake", Psalm 69:23.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-10.htm
 
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Pneuma3

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Once again you are proven wrong. You did not identify your source. συγκάμπτω/sugkampto, is the word in question not sunkampto. It only occurs once in the NT Rom 10:11. Here is the definition of the word.
συγκάμπτω 1 aor. συνέκαμψα (Hippocr., X., Pla. et al.; SIG 1168, 28 συγκάμψας τὰν χῆρα; LXX) (cause to) bend τὸν νῶτον αὐτῶν σύγκαμψον cause their back(s) to bend Ro 11:10 (Ps 68:24); Lk 13:11 D (for συγκύπτω).—M-M. s.v. συνκάμπτω.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 951). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Compulsory is not in the definition at all. And in Rom 10:11 the context shows it is not compulsory.
NIV Rom 11:10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
KJV Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Let or may their eyes be darkened and their backs be bent forever.
You must have missed the strong's reference and clement followed it up with more evidence.
 
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Pneuma3

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Nope! You're the one in the corner. You first amigo go back and address the 23 verses I posted first.

I already answered your question with scripture and everyone who has been reading this thread knows full well that I did. However they also know full well you are waffling on this issue because you have been backed into a corner and cannot answer without actually agreeing with me, which you refuse to do.

Do you really want to go down as telling people harlots enter into the kingdom of God in the state of sin?
Because you are well on your way to telling everyone exactly that.
 
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Pneuma3

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A lexicon is where people who know what they are doing look for definitions of words. Please show me where the definition of any word I have quoted from BDAG is proven wrong by scripture? You cannot do that because you earlier shot yourself in the foot by saying that aion' does not mean eternal just because it refers to God who is eternal. You cannot show me how any word is "defined" by scripture without contradicting this claim.

Huh! scripture says aion and its adjective has a beginning and an end, I did not say it scripture did so it really matters not what any lexicon says a word means.

However you guys keep saying because aionios damnation or aionios torment is used in the same scripture as when referring to God it must mean eternal/without beginning and without end.

So please inform all the readers how there is this place of damnation or torment that is without beginning and without end? in other words is co-eternal with God?

Is death really without beginning and without end? it must be if aionios actually means eternal.

Yet scripture tells us there will be no more death, death will be defeated and swallowed up in victory.

So again please inform the readers why you believe death is without beginning and without end/eternal.
 
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Pneuma3

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Rom.11:10 Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually." 11 I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy. 15 For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead? 26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob." 27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. 32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." 36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for* Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen! (CLV)* literally, "into"



"Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4781: συγκάμπτω

συγκάμπτω (T WH συνκάμπτω (cf. σύν, II. at the end)): 1 aorist imperative σύγκαμψον; to bend together, to bend completely: τόν νῶτον τίνος (A. V. to bow down one's back) i. e. metaphorically, to subject one to error and hardness of heart, a figure taken from the bowing of the back by captives compelled to pass under the yoke, Romans 11:10, from Psalm 68:24 (). (Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, others.)" http://biblehub.com/greek/4781.htm

"According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1"

1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75. https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) Let their eyes be darkened.—In the Apostle’s sense, “Let them be spiritually blinded, incapable of discerning or receiving the truth, and let their backs be bowed with the yoke of spiritual thraldom!” The Hebrew is, “Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not, and make their loins continually to shake.”

Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:10. Σκοτισθήτωσαν.—σύγκαμψον) They, who have their eyes darkened, and their back bent, are sure to stumble, Romans 11:11, and rush into a snare.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And bow down their back alway - The Hebrew Psa 69:23 is, "Let their loins totter or shake," that is, as one does when he has on him a heavy burden. The apostle has retained this sense. It means, let them be called to bear heavy and oppressive burdens; let them be subjected to toil or servitude, as a reward for their sins. That this had come upon the Jews in the time of Paul is clear; and it is further clear that it came upon them, as it was implied in the psalm, in consequence of their treatment of the Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
and bow down their back alway; which may denote their subjection and bondage to the Romans, when taken and carried captive by them; who laid very heavy burdens on them, which bowed down their backs indeed, multitudes of them being condemned to the mines; or this may design the general disposition of the minds of these people, which are bowed to the earth, for they mind nothing but earth and earthly things; the acquiring of which they are bent upon at any rate, and are infamous for their earthly mindedness, covetousness, extortion, usury, tricking, and over reaching: or this phrase may be expressive of that trembling, distress, horror, and despair, which shall seize them; especially when the son of man comes in the clouds of heaven, and they that have pierced him shall behold him, and wail because of trim; for in the Psalms the words are, "make their loins continually to shake", Psalm 69:23.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-10.htm
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sdowney717

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Huh! scripture says aion and its adjective has a beginning and an end, I did not say it scripture did so it really matters not what any lexicon says a word means.

However you guys keep saying because aionios damnation or aionios torment is used in the same scripture as when referring to God it must mean eternal/without beginning and without end.

So please inform all the readers how there is this place of damnation or torment that is without beginning and without end? in other words is co-eternal with God?

Is death really without beginning and without end? it must be if aionios actually means eternal.

Yet scripture tells us there will be no more death, death will be defeated and swallowed up in victory.

So again please inform the readers why you believe death is without beginning and without end/eternal.
Revelation 21, your puling out of context this idea about death. Those who are gone to the second death in the lake of fire are eternally separated from those who come to life and have God dwelling with them.
v8, but the cowardly, etc... have their part in the lake of fire (second death, so they are doubly most certainly dead and have no victory forever over death). This is contrasted with those who have life with God and have no more death, no more death for them, they have the victory over death. No more sorrow, or pain or death is only for them who dwell with God. 'No more', means forever.

All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

verse 8 declares the separation, one group from the other.
 
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Pneuma3

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Revelation 21, your puling out of context this idea about death. Those who are gone to the second death in the lake of fire are eternally separated from those who come to life and have God dwelling with them.
v8, but the cowardly, etc... have their part in the lake of fire (second death, so they are doubly most certainly dead and have no victory forever over death). This is contrasted with those who have life with God and have no more death, no more death for them, they have the victory over death. No more sorrow, or pain or death is only for them who dwell with God. 'No more', means forever.

All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

verse 8 declares the separation, one group from the other.

So are you saying death is co-eternal with God and is without beginning and without end?

So explain how the prostitute can enter the kingdom of God.

As to being eternally separated, no such thing exist unless you have found a place that God is not.
And if you read the scriptures they say the torment is in the presence of the lamb, that is not separation.


And yet they will have their part along with those Christians who do not overcome as per the letters to the churches.
 
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Der Alte

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You must have missed the strong's reference and clement followed it up with more evidence.
Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. I note that you have ignored the bulk of the post. I don't read googol copy pastes from Clem's pet websites, e.g. tent-r-us, nohopebeyond hell etc. Clem is not even on my radar.
 
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<P3>I already answered your question with scripture and everyone who has been reading this thread knows full well that I did. However they also know full well you are waffling on this issue because you have been backed into a corner and cannot answer without actually agreeing with me, which you refuse to do.
Do you really want to go down as telling people harlots enter into the kingdom of God in the state of sin?
Because you are well on your way to telling everyone exactly that.<end
>
Everyone reading this thread knows full well you have NOT addressed the 23 passages of scripture I posted. You will not have addressed them until you respond to each one individually, one by one, showing conclusively why my conclusions are wrong. Until you do that I have nothing further to say to you. And I do have an answer to your claim about prostitutes.
 
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