Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Der Alte]

Huh! scripture says aion and its adjective has a beginning and an end, I did not say it scripture did so it really matters not what any lexicon says a word means.

There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible. Hyperbole is one of those.

So please inform all the readers how there is this place of damnation or torment that is without beginning and without end? in other words is co-eternal with God?

Explain what you are talking about chapter and verse.

Is death really without beginning and without end? it must be if aionios actually means eternal.

See first response above.

Yet scripture tells us there will be no more death, death will be defeated and swallowed up in victory.

And your point is?

So again please inform the readers why you believe death is without beginning and without end/eternal

.

I never said death was without beginning or end. Chapter and verse, please. I note that you continue to refuse to address my posts. You just keep spamming the forum with your arguments over and over. When I see a response which addresses specific points I have made, then I will respond. Until then Sayonara.

 

[Pneuma3]

Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. I note that you have ignored the bulk of the post. I don't read googol copy pastes from Clem's pet websites, e.g. tent-r-us, nohopebeyond hell etc. Clem is not even on my radar.

"Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4781: συγκάμπτω

συγκάμπτω (T WH συνκάμπτω (cf. σύν, II. at the end)): 1 aorist imperative σύγκαμψον; to bend together, to bend completely: τόν νῶτον τίνος (A. V. to bow down one's back) i. e. metaphorically, to subject one to error and hardness of heart, a figure taken from the bowing of the back by captives compelled to pass under the yoke, Romans 11:10, from Psalm 68:24 (). (Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, others.)" http://biblehub.com/greek/4781.htm

"According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1"

1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75. https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) Let their eyes be darkened.—In the Apostle’s sense, “Let them be spiritually blinded, incapable of discerning or receiving the truth, and let their backs be bowed with the yoke of spiritual thraldom!” The Hebrew is, “Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not, and make their loins continually to shake.”

Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:10. Σκοτισθήτωσαν.—σύγκαμψον) They, who have their eyes darkened, and their back bent, are sure to stumble, Romans 11:11, and rush into a snare.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And bow down their back alway - The Hebrew Psa 69:23 is, "Let their loins totter or shake," that is, as one does when he has on him a heavy burden. The apostle has retained this sense. It means, let them be called to bear heavy and oppressive burdens; let them be subjected to toil or servitude, as a reward for their sins. That this had come upon the Jews in the time of Paul is clear; and it is further clear that it came upon them, as it was implied in the psalm, in consequence of their treatment of the Messiah.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
and bow down their back alway; which may denote their subjection and bondage to the Romans, when taken and carried captive by them; who laid very heavy burdens on them, which bowed down their backs indeed, multitudes of them being condemned to the mines; or this may design the general disposition of the minds of these people, which are bowed to the earth, for they mind nothing but earth and earthly things; the acquiring of which they are bent upon at any rate, and are infamous for their earthly mindedness, covetousness, extortion, usury, tricking, and over reaching: or this phrase may be expressive of that trembling, distress, horror, and despair, which shall seize them; especially when the son of man comes in the clouds of heaven, and they that have pierced him shall behold him, and wail because of trim; for in the Psalms the words are, "make their loins continually to shake", Psalm 69:23.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-10.htm

Ya I know they are all wrong and your BDAG is correct.

 

[Pneuma3]

<P3>I already answered your question with scripture and everyone who has been reading this thread knows full well that I did. However they also know full well you are waffling on this issue because you have been backed into a corner and cannot answer without actually agreeing with me, which you refuse to do.
Do you really want to go down as telling people harlots enter into the kingdom of God in the state of sin?
Because you are well on your way to telling everyone exactly that.<end>
Everyone reading this thread knows full well you have NOT addressed the 23 passages of scripture I posted. You will not have addressed them until you respond to each one individually, one by one, showing conclusively why my conclusions are wrong. Until you do that I have nothing further to say to you. And I do have an answer to your claim about prostitutes.

I have shown you via scripture that the prostitute enters the kingdom of God, that answers to those scriptures you posted and you know it and so does everyone else, you backed yourself into a corner and now are pleading ignorant. Both the prostitutes and those in the scriptures you posted are sinners so tell us all how a sinner enters into the kingdom of God while still in their sin state.

You can back out of the conversation if you like DA but we all know the real reason why.

 

[Pneuma3]

There are more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible. Hyperbole is one of those.

Explain what you are talking about chapter and verse.

See first response above.

And your point is?

I never said death was without beginning or end. Chapter and verse, please. I note that you continue to refuse to address my posts. You just keep spamming the forum with your arguments over and over. When I see a response which addresses specific points I have made, then I will respond. Until then Sayonara.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?

If it does then the punishment is without beginning and without end, therefore it is co-eternal with God.
which makes what you believe to be death being without beginning and without end.

 

[Der Alte]

"Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4781: συγκάμπτω
συγκάμπτω (T WH συνκάμπτω (cf. σύν, II. at the end)): 1 aorist imperative σύγκαμψον; to bend together, to bend completely: τόν νῶτον τίνος (A. V. to bow down one's back) i. e. metaphorically, to subject one to error and hardness of heart, a figure taken from the bowing of the back by captives compelled to pass under the yoke, Romans 11:10, from Psalm 68:24 (). (Xenophon, Plato, Aristotle, others.)" http://biblehub.com/greek/4781.htm
"According to Vine, ―"bow", (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, "to bend") "is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10)." While, he says, sunkamptō "signifies "to bend completely together, to bend down by compulsory force" (Rom. 11:10)." 1"
1. Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Thomas Nelson 1996, p. 75. https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(10) Let their eyes be darkened.—In the Apostle’s sense, “Let them be spiritually blinded, incapable of discerning or receiving the truth, and let their backs be bowed with the yoke of spiritual thraldom!” The Hebrew is, “Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not, and make their loins continually to shake.”
Bengel's Gnomen
Romans 11:10. Σκοτισθήτωσαν.—σύγκαμψον) They, who have their eyes darkened, and their back bent, are sure to stumble, Romans 11:11, and rush into a snare.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And bow down their back alway - The Hebrew Psa 69:23 is, "Let their loins totter or shake," that is, as one does when he has on him a heavy burden. The apostle has retained this sense. It means, let them be called to bear heavy and oppressive burdens; let them be subjected to toil or servitude, as a reward for their sins. That this had come upon the Jews in the time of Paul is clear; and it is further clear that it came upon them, as it was implied in the psalm, in consequence of their treatment of the Messiah.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
and bow down their back alway; which may denote their subjection and bondage to the Romans, when taken and carried captive by them; who laid very heavy burdens on them, which bowed down their backs indeed, multitudes of them being condemned to the mines; or this may design the general disposition of the minds of these people, which are bowed to the earth, for they mind nothing but earth and earthly things; the acquiring of which they are bent upon at any rate, and are infamous for their earthly mindedness, covetousness, extortion, usury, tricking, and over reaching: or this phrase may be expressive of that trembling, distress, horror, and despair, which shall seize them; especially when the son of man comes in the clouds of heaven, and they that have pierced him shall behold him, and wail because of trim; for in the Psalms the words are, "make their loins continually to shake", Psalm 69:23.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-10.htm
Ya I know they are all wrong and your BDAG is correct.

My [post #60] this thread, 23 passages which conclusively demonstrate that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal never specifically addressed..

 

[Der Alte]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?
If it does then the punishment is without beginning and without end, therefore it is co-eternal with God.
which makes what you believe to be death being without beginning and without end.

Does not specifically address anything in my post which you quoted. Can you honestly not see the glaring difference between the defintions you post and the definition in BDAG? Hint, the information highlighted in blue are the many sources the BDAG scholars consulted in determining the correct definition.. Another hint, the NT was not written in a vacuum.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press​

 

[ClementofA]

My [post #304] 23 passages which conclusively demonstrate that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal never specifically addressed..

That claim has been answered & disproven before, e.g.:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

 

[Der Alte]

I have shown you via scripture that the prostitute enters the kingdom of God, that answers to those scriptures you posted and you know it and so does everyone else, you backed yourself into a corner and now are pleading ignorant. Both the prostitutes and those in the scriptures you posted are sinners so tell us all how a sinner enters into the kingdom of God while still in their sin state.
You can back out of the conversation if you like DA but we all know the real reason why.

My [post #60] this thread, 23 passages which conclusively demonstrate that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal never specifically addressed..

 

[Pneuma3]

My [post #60] this thread, 23 passages which conclusively demonstrate that aion means eternity and aionios means eternal never specifically addressed..

You never addressed them to me, you were talking to clement and oldmantook and they made an answer to them.
I can qoute all 23 passages from YLT which shows the difference but you reject YLT as being accurate, so what good would it do?

 

[Pneuma3]

Does not specifically address anything in my post which you quoted. Can you honestly not see the glaring difference between the defintions you post and the definition in BDAG? Hint, the information highlighted in blue are the many sources the BDAG scholars consulted in determining the correct definition.. Another hint, the NT was not written in a vacuum.

αἰώνιος (ία ③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press​

Yes we already know you believe BDAG to be the be all and end all of lexicons, but I gave you scripture that states aion and its adjective have a beginning and an end.

 

[Pneuma3]

And you still have not explained why the prostitute can enter the kingdom of heaven and the other sinners you posted on can't.

And you also have not told anyone why you believe death is without beginning and without end as per this scripture.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?

If it does then the punishment is without beginning and without end, therefore it is co-eternal with God.
which makes what you believe to be death being without beginning and without end.

Come on don't just rely on others (BDAG) to answer for you, try using a little bit of logic.

 

[Der Alte]

You never addressed them to me, you were talking to clement and oldmantook and they made an answer to them.
I can qoute all 23 passages from YLT which shows the difference but you reject YLT as being accurate, so what good would it do?

They have been addressed to you now. And why do I believe YLT is not accurate? Read my quote from BDAG above. Pay particular attention to the blue highlights then ask yourself if Young provides similar scholarship? And just quoting a "version" which contradicts BDAG means nothing. What is necessary is to prove that only Young can be correct and BDAG cannot be correct. Can you do that?

Yes we already know you believe BDAG to be the be all and end all of lexicons, but I gave you scripture that states aion and its adjective have a beginning and an end.

Using this logic I would have to say that Herod was actually, literally a fox when Jesus called him that. And Simon was actually, literally a stone when Jesus called him that. Also James and John were literally, actually sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Then there are the 8 verses where "whole earth/all the earth" refers to things which cannot be the entire planet.

And you still have not explained why the prostitute can enter the kingdom of heaven and the other sinners you posted on can't.

Read the passage in context. Maybe you can figure it out.

And you also have not told anyone why you believe death is without beginning and without end as per this scripture.

I never said anything like this. You must have me confused with 3 other guys. You should not try to force your interpretation onto me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?

I don't understand your question

If it does then the punishment is without beginning and without end, therefore it is co-eternal with God.
which makes what you believe to be death being without beginning and without end.

Nonsense.

Come on don't just rely on others (BDAG) to answer for you, try using a little bit of logic.

I have been using logic all along. Unlike some folks who base their understanding on one or two out-of-context verses and cherry picked outdated resources. When you have time, do try to refute the 23 passages I posted using YLT. I'd really like to see that, it would give me a good laugh. Emended to add: Oops I forgot I already addressed anything that you can post from YLT in my 23 verse post.

You've simply drawn a wrong conclusion, that because aion is used in conjunction with God and God is eternal then aion must mean erternal. That, however, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy.

23 passages.
[post #60]

 

[ClementofA]

This says specifically "tax collectors and prostitutes." Here is the list that Paul said would not inherit the kingdom of God "unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditionists, heresies, envious, murders, drunkenness, revellers, whoremongers, unclean person, covetous, corruption." I don't see "tax collectors and prostitutes"

Prostitutes are included in your list. See "unrighteous" & "fornicators" (2X), etc. Therefore the unrighteous - shall - get into the kingdom of God. And they shall do so - before - "the chief priests and the elders of the people", which implies "the chief priests and the elders" (Mt.21:23) shall also enter. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. As your correspondent (Pneuma3) said:


"But as it just so happens scriptures do in fact show these type of individuals will enter the kingdom.

Matt 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Now tell me DA how the tax collectors and prostitutes get into the kingdom?"

No you have not reconciled anything. If the 29 groups I mentioned would sometime in the future be allowed to enter the kingdom of God. I wonder why Paul did not say anything about it in 1 Cor, Gal and Eph?

Clearly you've never read Paul, the universalist . See 1 Cor.15:22-28; Eph.2:9-11, etc.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

And my answer is you ignore that the words of God also came right out and said specifically "the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, fornicators, unclean, lascivious, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditionists, heresies, envious, murders, drunkenness, revellers, whoremongers, unclean person, covetous, corruption." shall not inherit the kingdom of God. in

1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5
.....And nowhere does scripture say these specific groups will inherit the kingdom of God.

Nowhere? Have you never read the context? He says it right there.

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

No I find it totally incredulous that you say that what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 6:9-10, 1 Cor 15:50, Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:5 is not actually recorded in scripture. As I said your Bible only has one verse mine has 31,172

Where did anyone say that?

https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-false-accusations.html

 

[Pneuma3]

They have been addressed to you now. And why do I believe YLT is not accurate? Read my quote from BDAG above. Pay particular attention to the blue highlights then ask yourself if Young provides similar scholarship? And just quoting a "version" which contradicts BDAG means nothing. What is necessary is to prove that only Young can be correct and BDAG cannot be correct. Can you do that?



Well scripture and logic tells me BDAG is wrong.

Scripture say the aions have a beginning and they have an end, thus BDAG is incorrect.

Logic tells me BDAG is wrong because if aionios mean without beginning and without end in this scripture...

...

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



Then the punishment is without beginning and without end, thus stating death is co-eternal with God.







Using this logic I would have to say that Herod was actually, literally a fox when Jesus called him that. And Simon was actually, literally a stone when Jesus called him that. Also James and John were literally, actually sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Then there are the 8 verses where "whole earth/all the earth" refers to things which cannot be the entire planet.



That has nothing to do with the scriptures stating the aions have a beginning and an end so what kind of logic are your trying to promote here? Must be the same logic that say when Paul says Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men Paul really did not mean what he said.



To me it looks more like you do not like what the scriptures actually state so come up with ways to disagree with them.





Read the passage in context. Maybe you can figure it out.



LOL still trying to get me to do your work for you. Could that be because you still have not figured out why the prostitute can enter the kingdom of God in their sinful state while all other sinner cannot.





I never said anything like this. You must have me confused with 3 other guys. You should not try to force your interpretation onto me.



You might not have said as much but that is what you teach.

If you believe aionios means without beginning and without end in this scripture..



And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal...



Then you are in fact saying death or punishment is without beginning and without end.





I don't understand your question



How can you not understand this question.



And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?



Aionios is used of both the punishment and life, so either it has the same meaning or it does not.



Which is it?







Nonsense.



No that's logic, if you say aionios means the same thing in both it occurrences in that verse then you are saying the punishment or death is without beginning and without end. Thus you are in fact stating the death or punishment is co-eternal with God.





I have been using logic all along. Unlike some folks who base their understanding on one or two out-of-context verses and cherry picked outdated resources. When you have time, do try to refute the 23 passages I posted using YLT. I'd really like to see that, it would give me a good laugh. Emended to add: Oops I forgot I already addressed anything that you can post from YLT in my 23 verse post.

23 passages.

[post #60]


If you can call what you do logic.....
We have already established you dislike YLT so why would I waste my time. Scripture tells us the aions and its adjective have a beginning and an end and scripture overrides you and BDAG.



I find it kind of funny that you believe aionios can mean two totally different things, an age and eternity because they are contrary to one another.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<P3>.....[Mostly same old repetitious nonsense over and over and over. Omitted. DA]......LOL still trying to get me to do your work for you. Could that be because you still have not figured out why the prostitute can enter the kingdom of God in their sinful state while all other sinner cannot....<end>

end

You are the one who hasn't figured out how the harlots and publicans enter heaven before "the chief priests and the elders of the people"[Matt 21:23] Evidently all you can see is vs. 31 because, out-of-context, it appears to support your UR assumptions/presuppositions. Don't say I didn't give you a chance.

Matthew 21:28-32
(28) "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
(29) "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
(30) "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
(31) "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
(32) For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.​

Only the tax collectors and the prostitutes who heard John's preaching, not all, are entering [present tense] the kingdom of God ahead of tax collectors and the prostitutes.

 

[Pneuma3]

<P3>.....[Mostly same old repetitious nonsense over and over and over. Omitted. DA]......LOL still trying to get me to do your work for you. Could that be because you still have not figured out why the prostitute can enter the kingdom of God in their sinful state while all other sinner cannot....<end>
You are the one who hasn't figured out how the harlots and publicans enter heaven before "the chief priests and the elders of the people"[Matt 21:23] Evidently all you can see is vs. 31 because, out-of-context, it appears to support your UR assumptions/presuppositions. Don't say I didn't give you a chance.

Matthew 21:28-32
(28) "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
(29) "'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
(30) "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
(31) "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
(32) For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.​

Only the tax collectors and the prostitutes who heard John's preaching, not all, are entering [present tense] the kingdom of God ahead of tax collectors and the prostitutes.

The reason i have to keep repeating myself is because you refuse to answer the questions.heck you even said you did not understand the question. so i said it 3 different ways in my last post so that there would not be any misunderstanding and now you complain about it. Just look at how long it took you to finally make an answer to the prostitute question.

However you gave the same answer I did about those other sinners and yet you disagreed with my answer. Sorry you cannot have it both ways, if this answer is good for the prostitutes it is good for the rest of sinners.
However just to point out to the readers you are adding to what the scripture actually says (you seem to have a habit of doing that) as the word ONLY is not in those scriptures.

 

[Pneuma3]

so are you going to finally answer this question, you must understand it by know, or are you just going to keep waffling.



And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?



Aionios is used of both the punishment and life, so either it has the same meaning or it does not.



Which is it?

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<P3>The reason i have to keep repeating myself is because you refuse to answer the questions.heck you even said you did not understand the question. so i said it 3 different ways in my last post so that there would not be any misunderstanding and now you complain about it. Just look at how long it took you to finally make an answer to the prostitute question.
However you gave the same answer I did about those other sinners and yet you disagreed with my answer. Sorry you cannot have it both ways, if this answer is good for the prostitutes it is good for the rest of sinners.
However just to point out to the readers you are adding to what the scripture actually says (you seem to have a habit of doing that) as the word ONLY is not in those scriptures.<end>

end

Matthew 21:28-32
(28) But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
(29) He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
(30) And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
(31) Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
(32) For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.​

Note the parable which precedes your out-of-context proof text, vss. 28-30. Vs. 31 is the application of the parable. The context requires the word "only" because misguided people, who believe that everybody, sinner or believer, will be saved, no matter what, try to manipulate Jesus' words. They try to make vs. 31 mean all harlots and publicans throughout history, past, present and future, will enter the kingdom. But the vs. clearly says "the publicans and the harlots believed [past tense] him [John]"[in this life] not some after death second chance that is why they went into the kingdom.
.....Now address these 23 passages, each and every one. [post #60]

 

[Der Alte]

so are you going to finally answer this question, you must understand it by know, or are you just going to keep waffling.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Does aionios have the same meaning in this verse?
Aionios is used of both the punishment and life, so either it has the same meaning or it does not.
Which is it?

You answer the question. I'm not here to play 20 questions. You should know what I believe based on my position on the words aion/aionios. You tell me what you think they mean and I will prove you wrong
23 passages. [post #60]
Too quote a post you want to respond to click the click +quote at the lower right hand corner and quoted post appears in the reply area. If you want to separate some parts type quote blocks around the text you want to separate from the other like this [QU0TE] to begin and [/QU0TE] to end. And it will appear as

to begin and

 

[ClementofA]

.....Now address these 23 passages, each and every one.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…