Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

ClementofA

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Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.

Which Strongs is that? The original Strongs, the new Strongs, the strongest Strongs, or online Strongs, etc? The poster you replied to did not quote the original Strongs, but what is stated here:

http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

Which defines aionios as "agelong, eternal". Likewise from the same page says the "NAS Exhaustive Concordance" and the "HELPS Word-studies". Furthermore likewise says the LSJ lexicon & many others i've quoted here before.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf



 
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ClementofA

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Here is the definition of Kolasis from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons available. The blue indicates the many sources the authors used to determine the meaning. "Punishment" not "correction."

BDAG makes references to "chastisement" which can certainly be corrective. Synonyms of "chastisement" given by Webster's dictionary are "castigate, chasten, correct, discipline, penalize, punish". For the verb, kolazo, BDAG admits to "Aristotle's limitation of the term...to disciplinary action" which Danker opines is "not reflected in general usage" (p.555).


κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries;
‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.—Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

The Universalist position on NT usage of these words is that in contexts where such words occur (e.g. Mt.25:46; 2 Pet.2:9), in reference to Divinely given eschatological &/or postmortem punishment, they are not indicative of vindictive retributive punishment, but rather of a corrective punishing or chastening for the good of the offender.

The following sources allege that the words under consideration were used of corrective punishment before, soon after & at the time of Christ.

According to this alleged quote of Trench κόλασις, as opposed to τιμωρία, has "more the notion of punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender (see Philo, Leg, ad Cai. I; Josephus, Antt. ii. 6. 8); it is ‘castigatio,’ and naturally has for the most part a milder use than τιμωρία. Thus Plato (Protag. 323 e) joins κολάσεις and νουθετήσεις together: and the whole passage to the end of the chapter is eminently instructive as to the distinction between the words: οὐδεὶς κολάζει τοὺς ἀδικοῦντας ὅτι ἠδίκησεν, ὅστις μὴ ὥσπερ θηρίον ἀλογίστως τιμωρεῖται, ... ἀλλὰ τοῦ μέλλοντος χάριν ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἀδικήσῃ; the same change in the words which he employs, occurring again twice or thrice in the sentence; with all which may be compared what Clement of Alexandria has said, Strom. iv. 24; and again vii. 16, where he defines κολάσεις as μερικαὶ παιδεῖαι, and τιμωρία as κακοῦ ἀνταπόδοσις. And this is Aristotle’s distinction (Rhet. i. 10): διαφέρει δὲ τιμωρία καὶ κόλασις· ἡ μὲν γὰρ κόλασις τοῦ πάσχοντος ἕνεκά ἐστιν· ἡ δὲ τιμωρία, τοῦ ποιοῦντος, ἵνα ἀποπληρωθῇ: cf. Ethic. Nic. iv. 5: τιμωρία παύει τῆς ὀργῆς, ἠδονῆν ἀντὶ τῆς λύπης ἐμποιοῦσα. It is to these and similar definitions that Aulus Gellius refers when he says (Noct. Att. vi. 14): ‘Puniendis peccatis tres esse debere causas existimatum est. Una est quae νουθεσία, vel, κόλασις, vel παραίνεσις dicitur; cum poena adhibetur castigandi atque emendandi gratiâ; ut is qui fortuito deliquit, attentior fiat, correctiorque. Altera est quam ii, qui vocabula ista curiosius diviserunt, τιμωρίαν appellant. Ea causa animadvertendi est, cum dignitas auctoritasque ejus, in quem est peccatum, tuenda est, ne praetermissa animadversio contemtum ejus pariat, et honorem levet: idcircoque id ei vocabulum a conservatione honoris factum putant.’ There is a profound commentary on these words in Göschel’s Zerstreute Blätter, part 2, p. 343–360; compare too an instructive note in Wyttenbach’s Animadd. in Plutarch. vol. xii. p. 776." https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=7

So in favor of κόλασις (or κολάζω) being corrective Trench lists quotes from Plato, Aristotle, Philo, Josephus, Aulus Gellius & Clement of Alexandria. To those we could add early church universalists such as Oregon, Gregory Nyssa & many others. Moulton & Milligan continue to add to that list as follows:

"The meaning ";cut short,"; which the presumable connexion with κόλος and κολούω would suggest, seems to be the original sense of the word. In the Paris Thesaurus we find quotations for the meaning ";prune"; (κόλασις τῶν δένδρων), and a number of late passages where the verb denotes ";correcting,"; ";cutting down"; a superfluity. Thus Galen ad Galatians 1:1-24 τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία τῶν ἐναντίων ἰάματά ἐστι, κολάζοντα μὲν τὸ ὑπερβάλλον. Of course this may be a derived sense, like that of castigo and of our ";correct,"; but in any case it is clearly a familiar sense during the NT period, and we cannot leave it out of consideration when we examine this very important word." https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/2849.html

In addition to those, under the section on κολάζω in TDNT, J. Schneider notes regarding "inscr. given by Steinleitner from Phrygian and Lydian monuments of the imperial period" that in "these inscriptions the sins punished by deity are those against the deity itself, e.g. violations of the sacred cultic laws. The deity smites the offender with sickness and infirmity, or even punishes himself and his family with death. The sinner can win back the grace of the deity only by open confession of his guilt. In this way alone can he be liberated from sickness and misfortune."

TDNT adds regarding Philo's view of the "legislative power of God" that this "power divides into two branches, the one for the rewarding of the good and the other for the punishment of sinners. Philo's view of God includes the insight that in God mercy is older than punishment (Deus Imm.,76) and that God would rather forgive than punish (Spec.Leg., II,196...). Punishment is for those who are not amenable to reason (Agric.,40). Thus punishment may seem to be the greatest evil, but it is to be regarded as the greatest blessing for fools, loc. cit. This is a Stoic view" ("Theological Dictionary of the New Testament", TDNT, ed. G. Kittel, Vol.3, p.815).

The "New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis" (NIDNTTE, ed. Moises Silva, 2014, Vol. II, p.716-718) concurs with TDNT's remarks above.

NIDTTE also refers to the 5 NT occurrences of the "derived vb. κολαφίζω" (kolaphizo, Strongs # 2852), "to strike (with the fist), fig. torment". It is used twice of "the Jewish leaders who struck Jesus during his trial before the Sanhedrin (Matt 26:67 = Mark 14:65)." (NIDTTE, p.718).

"Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him," (Mt.26:67; NASB).

There are no indications of an intent to correct Jesus via such actions by these evil human beings. Rather it seems vindictive or sadistic. Likewise with the occurrences of kolaphizo at 1 Pet.2:20 & 1 Cor.4:11, does the "buffeting" or ""to strike (with the fist), fig. torment" have no hint of correction.

In all 4 cases of kolaphizo mentioned so far, they all are at the hands of men & do not indicate a corrective or beneficial purpose to those receiving such "torments". However, in the 5th occurrence of this word in the New Testament, that changes.

In 2 Cor.12:7 is the only one of the 5 that refer to a Divinely given kolaphizo (compare Mt.25:46). In this context the Lord gives Paul a thorn in the flesh to "torment" or "buffet" [κολαφίζῃ] him, not as a sadistic or vindictive retribution with no thought of benefit to Paul, but rather for Paul's own good:

"7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

In Matthew 25:46, like 2 Cor.12:7, is another New Testament instance of Divinely given sufferings, usually translated "punishment" (κόλασιν) (v.46) of "fire" (v.41). Shall it not also be, as the Divinely given sufferings of 2 Cor.12:7, for the good of the recipients?

Clearly the words under consideration are not always used of correction. So in order to determine whether or not their usage in eschatological and/or postmortem passages like Matthew 25:46 & 2 Peter 2:9 is corrective, one must consider the contexts. In that light, therefore, it seems questionable what use there would be in an examination of all of the many ancient Greek occurrences of the words. Will they inform us of the view of the New Testament God of love in regard to how He interprets them in an eschatological context? Or do extrabiblical usages, such as you've cited above, often come under the classification of false gods, fables & myths which are to be rejected, as in:

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Do we find out what the real - good - God thinks on a subject by studying what the - evil - false gods think about it? Or how - evil - revengeful, bitter men with sadistic motivations use the words in question? They will punish from their own - evil - motives, whereas the - good - God, Love Omnipotent, always does so from the motive of the betterment of His created beings.

In support of that there is much to be brought forth from the inspired Scriptures & nothing in opposition to it. There are examples where His wrath, destruction, wounding, punishment, anger and torments are intended for the good of those who receive such. And no examples to the contrary.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Matthew 25:46: “And these shall be coming away into chastening(kolasin) eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLV)...1 John 4:18: “for fear has chastening(kolasin).” (CLV)

The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. Luke 12:47-48a

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Der Alte

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I just proved it. Do I need to ask you again? Does Matt 25:46 refer to the Millennial Age or not? A simple yes or no will suffice. As you know Scripture does not contradict itself so even "cherry-picked" verses have to be reconciled.
Do you have evidence that Matt 25:46 refers to the Millennial age? I don't see the word χίλιοι/xilioi , thousand in the passage. I agree scripture does not contradict itself but lots of folks jump through all kinds of hoops trying to make isolated out-of-context proof texts line up with their assumptions/presuppositions. I await your scriptural evidence to support your claim re: Matt 25:46.
 
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Der Alte

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...What does "ever and ever" mean? (To the end of the ages) ... Even time does not remain forever. "Ever and ever" cold mean ages or to the end of ages or the end of time as we know it. ... Ever or ages is a measurement of time with a beginning and a end....
There is a figure of speech the lexical name is "epezeuxis" in which a word is repeated for emphasis. See final entry "for ever and ever" below.
Epizeuxis: or, Duplication The Repetition of the Same Word in the Same Sense. When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEMINATIO , pronounced Gem-i-n ´-tio , which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling . It is also called ITERATIO ( It´-er- -ti-o ), iteration; CONDUPLICATIO ( con-d -pli-ca´-tio ), conduplication , or full doubling . When the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS , pronounced Ep´-i-zeux´-is epi ), upon , and ( zeugnumi ), to yoke , or join closely together . The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words

We may give the figure the English name of Duplication, Gemination, Iteration, or Repetition. It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it. In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger letters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking, it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence. How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! pp. 200-201
II. NOUNS AND PRONOUNS
( b ) In singular and genitive plural
( b ) In singular and genitive plural A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew. See under Idiom . Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage ( q.v. ), or exchange, by which a noun in the genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective. …
Dan. 2:37 . Ezek. 26:17 . A king of kings : i.e. , the most mighty king.
Dan. 2:47 . God of gods : i.e. , the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
Dan. 8:25 . The Prince of princes : i.e. , the most powerful Prince. Hos. 10:1

1 Tim. 6:15 . The King of kings, and Lord of lords. Compare Rev. 17:14 and 19:16 . Rev. 1:6 . The ages of the ages , i.e. , to the remotest age, for ever and ever. pp. 301-302
E.W. Bullinger​
 
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SarahsKnight

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I believe it's because Jesus and His apostles actually spoke of Gehenna, hell and Hades often.

Nobody's denying that, though, that Jesus spoke of Gehenna. Where we differ is whether the Bible teaches that it is a place where souls live forever in torment or a place where souls are destroyed.

I've got breaking news for hell-lovers. Jesus and the OT have in fact often called the fire itself (obviously referring to the fire of Gehenna) eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable, but as to the unbelieving humans themselves, there has never been a time in Scripture in which fire from God preserved them instead of consumed and destroyed them. Heck, even in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man it still didn't say that the rich man was being tormented forever (believe or not, fire will torment you with pain for a time before it completes its clearly destructive work and kills you; that's just demonstrable fact), and that's only if you even take the story literally, which presents a lot of other problems if you do.

The only time in all of Scripture I know of where fire from God preserved the object it was set against was the use of the burning bush as a sign to Moses that he was being spoken to by God. Because, yeah, if God wanted to make it so that His fire would preserve an object or creature instead of destroy it, He could. He can do anything He wants. And yet the only time it does preserve an object instead of destroy it, it is not even to punish a human but just use a bush to reveal Himself to Moses? There's no reason for me to believe the traditional view of Gehenna as eternal preservation and living death in any kind of torment, instead of literal destruction, in light of so much Scripture where the fire from God is clearly said to destroy, burn up, and consume. (I'm not going to take forever and a half to list every single one, okay? I mean, I think there literally as much as a hundred verses and passages. But here's just one right off the top of my head to at least get you thinking: Hebrews 10:26-31. Right there it says the fire will "devour" the adversaries. I can't imagine for one second that God would mince words here if He meant to teach that the fire would instead do something even worse than literally devour and destroy.)

I mean, sorry. Just not buying it. I wasted the first twelve years of my life after being graciously saved by Christ buying the eternal torment doctrine. And after enduring a torturous year suffering from scrupulosity in which I was so certain that I had done something to make it so that God now hated me - or had all along pre-destined in the Calvinistic view to hate me - so much that He wanted to send me to a hell where I would be tortured forever, coming to study the view of conditional immortality which I now uphold once He had begun to heal me from such a dreadful mental disease? Not-so-subtle threats from traditionalists no longer frighten me.
 
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Oldmantook

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Do you have evidence that Matt 25:46 refers to the Millennial age? I don't see the word χίλιοι/xilioi , thousand in the passage. I agree scripture does not contradict itself but lots of folks jump through all kinds of hoops trying to make isolated out-of-context proof texts line up with their assumptions/presuppositions. I await your scriptural evidence to support your claim re: Matt 25:46.
Again, look at its immediate context which is not hard to do. The passage does not contain chilioi so the germane question is, does it refer to eternity or to an age of time? The context better fits with my claim that it refers to age instead of eternity which you have presumed upon.
1) The judgment takes place on earth upon Christ's return. Those who are judged are those persons who are still alive. Thus it cannot be the great white throne judgment which takes place after the millennial reign upon Christ's return and when the rest of the dead (not those alive) are resurrected.
2) Verse 34 states that Jesus tells his sheep on the right to "inherit the kingdom." What do you suppose this means? What kingdom? How long? I assume you know or agree that what happens after this statement is that Jesus' return ushers in his 1,000 year reign on earth. If this is the case then the sheep - those people alive at his return - enter into the millennial age.
3) This cannot be the bema seat judgment either as the sheep are unredeemed. They are not the "raptured" saints who return with Christ.
4) For reasons already mentioned, this cannot be the GWT judgment. Also, there is no reference to any kingdom associated with the GWT judgment while the sheep/goat does indeed reference a kingdom.
Therefore, the purpose of the Sheep/Goat judgment is to see who will inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:34) and who will not (Matt 25:41). The purpose of the Great White Throne judgment is to see who will be sent to the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

Given the above context, I submit that Matt 25:46 references a limited age of time, specifically the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth whereby the Son establishes his kingdom rule. Those sheep thus have age-long life during this millennial age. I see no where in this passage any support for interpreting this passage as referencing "eternal" - or even alluding to it.
 
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redleghunter

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Nobody's denying that, though, that Jesus spoke of Gehenna. Where we differ is whether the Bible teaches that it is a place where souls live forever in torment or a place where souls are destroyed.

I've got breaking news for hell-lovers. Jesus and the OT have in fact often called the fire itself (obviously referring to the fire of Gehenna) eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable, but as to the unbelieving humans themselves, there has never been a time in Scripture in which fire from God preserved them instead of consumed and destroyed them. Heck, even in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man it still didn't say that the rich man was being tormented forever (believe or not, fire will torment you with pain for a time before it completes its clearly destructive work and kills you; that's just demonstrable fact), and that's only if you even take the story literally, which presents a lot of other problems if you do.

The only time in all of Scripture I know of where fire from God preserved the object it was set against was the use of the burning bush as a sign to Moses that he was being spoken to by God. Because, yeah, if God wanted to make it so that His fire would preserve an object or creature instead of destroy it, He could. He can do anything He wants. And yet the only time it does preserve an object instead of destroy it, it is not even to punish a human but just use a bush to reveal Himself to Moses? There's no reason for me to believe the traditional view of Gehenna as eternal preservation and living death in any kind of torment, instead of literal destruction, in light of so much Scripture where the fire from God is clearly said to destroy, burn up, and consume. (I'm not going to take forever and a half to list every single one, okay? I mean, I think there literally as much as a hundred verses and passages. But here's just one right off the top of my head to at least get you thinking: Hebrews 10:26-31. Right there it says the fire will "devour" the adversaries. I can't imagine for one second that God would mince words here if He meant to teach that the fire would instead do something even worse than literally devour and destroy.)

I mean, sorry. Just not buying it. I wasted the first twelve years of my life after being graciously saved by Christ buying the eternal torment doctrine. And after enduring a torturous year suffering from scrupulosity in which I was so certain that I had done something to make it so that God now hated me - or had all along pre-destined in the Calvinistic view to hate me - so much that He wanted to send me to a hell where I would be tortured forever, coming to study the view of conditional immortality which I now uphold once He had begun to heal me from such a dreadful mental disease? Not-so-subtle threats from traditionalists no longer frighten me.
You are basing your people or objects surviving fire on the material naturalistic world principles.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Yeah, and like I said, the Bible doesn't say that the fire of God does any different than natural fire. It is the traditional view that is based on what mankind thinks should happen to unbelievers.
 
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redleghunter

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Yeah, and like I said, the Bible doesn't say that the fire of God does any different than natural fire. It is the traditional view that is based on what mankind thinks should happen to unbelievers.
You then believe the physics of our world and universe apply to the eternal and Divine?
 
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Dan the deacon

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It means He is on earth. Omnipresent.



"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

"27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘- We are His offspring.’ "

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipresent.html
Now is that hell (as being discussed here) or sheol before the visitation of Christ?
 
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SarahsKnight

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You then believe the physics of our world and universe apply to the eternal and Divine?

Nice spin to make it sound like I am trying to minimize God in some way.

No, I don't. God does not have to act by the natural laws of the universe at all.

However, the Bible says continuously how fire from God has been used to bring about a death penalty. Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction, Elijah calling fire from the heavens down upon the soldiers who demanded he come with them against his will, Matthew 10:28 and Hebrews 10:27 which are just two of the numerous verses that could scarcely be more clear that the fire of Gehenna will kill its victims via consumption/destruction like fire typically does. The Bible says it numerous times, using terms such as burned up, consumed, destroyed, and devoured. I am not exactly having to make any presumptions about God's method of punishment or how He should operate here.

Heck, 2 Peter 2:6 not only tells you in unambiguous words what happened to the wicked in that example by saying God "burned them to ashes", but also immediately says afterward that they were made an example of what will happen to the ungodly. How much more clear could it be? What the fire from God will do?
 
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Der Alte

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Again, look at its immediate context which is not hard to do. The passage does not contain chilioi so the germane question is, does it refer to eternity or to an age of time? The context better fits with my claim that it refers to age instead of eternity which you have presumed upon.
1) The judgment takes place on earth upon Christ's return. Those who are judged are those persons who are still alive. Thus it cannot be the great white throne judgment which takes place after the millennial reign upon Christ's return and when the rest of the dead (not those alive) are resurrected.
2) Verse 34 states that Jesus tells his sheep on the right to "inherit the kingdom." What do you suppose this means? What kingdom? How long? I assume you know or agree that what happens after this statement is that Jesus' return ushers in his 1,000 year reign on earth. If this is the case then the sheep - those people alive at his return - enter into the millennial age.
3) This cannot be the bema seat judgment either as the sheep are unredeemed. They are not the "raptured" saints who return with Christ.
Logical fallacy argument from silence. The word "kingdom" does not occur in Revelation at all. I don't submit to the theory of a "millenial age" which the word "aionos" refers to.

4) For reasons already mentioned, this cannot be the GWT judgment. Also, there is no reference to any kingdom associated with the GWT judgment while the sheep/goat does indeed reference a kingdom.
Therefore, the purpose of the Sheep/Goat judgment is to see who will inherit the kingdom (Matt 25:34) and who will not (Matt 25:41). The purpose of the Great White Throne judgment is to see who will be sent to the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).
What happens to those who are not sent to the lake of fire from the GWT?

Given the above context, I submit that Matt 25:46 references a limited age of time, specifically the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth whereby the Son establishes his kingdom rule. Those sheep thus have age-long life during this millennial age. I see no where in this passage any support for interpreting this passage as referencing "eternal" - or even alluding to it.
In my [post #162] this thread, I did a study of the meaning of the word aionios in the NT.
Your view seems to presuppose that Christ's rule will end after 1000 years. Which is not supported by scripture. In your view does the age-long life of those in the kingdom end?
 
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Der Alte

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Yeah, and like I said, the Bible doesn't say that the fire of God does any different than natural fire. It is the traditional view that is based on what mankind thinks should happen to unbelievers.
When God wants fire to destroy it will destroy, when God wants fire not to destroy it will not destroy.
Exodus 3:3 Daniel 3:27
 
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ClementofA

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Logical fallacy argument from silence. The word "kingdom" does not occur in Revelation at all.


Revelation 1:6 N-AFS
GRK: ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν ἱερεῖς τῷ
NAS: and He has made us [to be] a kingdom, priests
INT: made us a kingdom priests to the

Revelation 1:9 N-DFS
GRK: θλίψει καὶ βασιλείᾳ καὶ ὑπομονῇ
NAS: in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance
KJV: and in the kingdom and patience
INT: tribulation and kingdom and endurance

Revelation 5:10 N-AFS
GRK: θεῷ ἡμῶν βασιλείαν καὶ ἱερεῖς
NAS: You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests
INT: God of us kings and priests

Revelation 11:15 N-NFS
GRK: Ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: saying, The kingdom of the world
KJV: saying, The kingdoms of this world
INT: Became the kingdoms of the world

Revelation 12:10 N-NFS
GRK: καὶ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ
NAS: and the power, and the kingdom of our God
KJV: strength, and the kingdom of our God,
INT: and the kingdom of the God

Revelation 16:10 N-NFS
GRK: ἐγένετο ἡ βασιλεία αὐτοῦ ἐσκοτωμένη
NAS: of the beast, and his kingdom became
KJV: and his kingdom was full of darkness;
INT: became the kingdom of it darkened

Revelation 17:12 N-AFS
GRK: εἰσίν οἵτινες βασιλείαν οὔπω ἔλαβον
NAS: received a kingdom, but they receive
KJV: have received no kingdom as yet; but
INT: are which a kingdom not yet received

Revelation 17:17 N-AFS
GRK: δοῦναι τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν τῷ
NAS: and by giving their kingdom to the beast,
KJV: their kingdom unto the beast,
INT: to give the kingdom of them to the

Revelation 17:18 N-AFS
GRK: ἡ ἔχουσα βασιλείαν ἐπὶ τῶν
INT: which has kingship over the
 
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Der Alte

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Nobody's denying that, though, that Jesus spoke of Gehenna. Where we differ is whether the Bible teaches that it is a place where souls live forever in torment or a place where souls are destroyed.
Please show me that verse which says God has or will destroy even one soul in Hell? If God wants to destroy a soul He can do it right here on earth. Read your proof text again. What God created He can certainly destroy.
I've got breaking news for hell-lovers.
I will say this once and only once if your intent here is to belittle and insult those who disagree with you we can end this discussion right here.

Jesus and the OT have in fact often called the fire itself (obviously referring to the fire of Gehenna) eternal, everlasting, and unquenchable, but as to the unbelieving humans themselves, there has never been a time in Scripture in which fire from God preserved them instead of consumed and destroyed them
. Heck, even in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man it still didn't say that the rich man was being tormented forever
Neither does the "story" of Lazarus and rich man say that the rich man died. But it does say that the rich man can't get out of the place he is.

Luke 16:26
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(believe or not, fire will torment you with pain for a time before it completes its clearly destructive work and kills you; that's just demonstrable fact), and that's only if you even take the story literally, which presents a lot of other problems if you do.
The only time in all of Scripture I know of where fire from God preserved the object it was set against was the use of the burning bush as a sign to Moses that he was being spoken to by God. Because, yeah, if God wanted to make it so that His fire would preserve an object or creature instead of destroy it, He could. He can do anything He wants. And yet the only time it does preserve an object instead of destroy it, it is not even to punish a human but just use a bush to reveal Himself to Moses? There's no reason for me to believe the traditional view of Gehenna as eternal preservation and living death in any kind of torment, instead of literal destruction, in light of so much Scripture where the fire from God is clearly said to destroy, burn up, and consume. (I'm not going to take forever and a half to list every single one, okay? I mean, I think there literally as much as a hundred verses and passages.
But here's just one right off the top of my head to at least get you thinking: Hebrews 10:26-31. Right there it says the fire will "devour" the adversaries.
You stopped reading your proof text too soon. The next few verses say that there is a punishment worse than death.

Hebrews 10:28-31
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
(31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
can't imagine for one second that God would mince words here if He meant to teach that the fire would instead do something even worse than literally devour and destroy.)
What you can or cannot imagine does not determine what God will/will not do.

I mean, sorry. Just not buying it. I wasted the first twelve years of my life after being graciously saved by Christ buying the eternal torment doctrine. And after enduring a torturous year suffering from scrupulosity in which I was so certain that I had done something to make it so that God now hated me - or had all along pre-destined in the Calvinistic view to hate me - so much that He wanted to send me to a hell where I would be tortured forever, coming to study the view of conditional immortality which I now uphold once He had begun to heal me from such a dreadful mental disease? Not-so-subtle threats from traditionalists no longer frighten me
There are many. many people around who are just as adamant and convinced as you are that what they believe is right and everyone else is dead wrong e.g.; LDS, JW, UU, OP UPCI, WWCG, INC etc.
In my [post #136] is my scriptural support for "eternal punishment" i.e. punishment that never ends as Jesus said in Matthew 25:46.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Do you have any scripture to support that?
Angels as the eyes of God are a popular interpretation of the scriptures that talk about the Eyes of the Lord.

Ezekiel 10:12 Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.

Rev 4:4 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under their wings.

Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD roam throughout the earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is fully devoted to him.

zech 4:19 the seven eyes of the LORD that range throughout the earth

rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God,

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are inclined to their prayer.
 
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Hank77

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deleted, always thought Yair Davidy was a Karaite, maybe he is not - would not recommend him to others, as I wouldn't with the talmudic Jews, to much muck to wade through. So the answer is None. Nehemia Gordon claims to be a Karaite, He is only good for knowing when is the new moon... other than that he is anti-missionary... Just found an article Yair wrote years ago, He is definitely not a Karaite, not sure why I ever thought he was.
Nehemia Gordon is the one who explains the hand washing ceremony.
 
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Oldmantook

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Logical fallacy argument from silence. The word "kingdom" does not occur in Revelation at all. I don't submit to the theory of a "millenial age" which the word "aionos" refers to.
Actually, your argument is the one based on silence. I gave you a detailed explanation on the context of Matt 25:46. This verse in the context of this passage DOES CONTAIN the word "kingdom" (v.34). So for you to claim that my argument is based on silence is a false charge. You and I know that the Bible does not contain the word "trinity" but I suppose you believe in that concept don't you? Furthermore, Rev 20:4 states that the martyred saints who were beheaded live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. If there is no literal kingdom, what and whom do they rule over? You can choose to take this figuratively if you like, but to me a literal translation fits quite nicely with my view. I don't have to resort to allegorizing the plain meaning of scripture. Thus I find your view to be unconvincing.

What happens to those who are not sent to the lake of fire from the GWT?
That depends whether you believe only the unsaved are present at the GWT. Regardless, do you believe the GWT and the sheep/goat judgment is the same event.

In my [post #162] this thread, I did a study of the meaning of the word aionios in the NT.
Your view seems to presuppose that Christ's rule will end after 1000 years. Which is not supported by scripture. In your view does the age-long life of those in the kingdom end?
You are putting words in my mouth so to speak as I made no such claim. I specifically stated that judgment of the sheep/goats only applies to the age of Jesus' millennial reign. I did not write that Jesus' rule ends after that time. That age only applies to the Jesus' millennial rule. Of course, Jesus continues to reign after that time. The scripture is clear: For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 1 Cor 15:25
 
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redleghunter

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Nice spin to make it sound like I am trying to minimize God in some way.

No, I don't. God does not have to act by the natural laws of the universe at all.

However, the Bible says continuously how fire from God has been used to bring about a death penalty. Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction, Elijah calling fire from the heavens down upon the soldiers who demanded he come with them against his will, Matthew 10:28 and Hebrews 10:27 which are just two of the numerous verses that could scarcely be more clear that the fire of Gehenna will kill its victims via consumption/destruction like fire typically does. The Bible says it numerous times, using terms such as burned up, consumed, destroyed, and devoured. I am not exactly having to make any presumptions about God's method of punishment or how He should operate here.

Heck, 2 Peter 2:6 not only tells you in unambiguous words what happened to the wicked in that example by saying God "burned them to ashes", but also immediately says afterward that they were made an example of what will happen to the ungodly. How much more clear could it be? What the fire from God will do?
Examples of fire completely destroying people, cities and objects is temporal judgments.

The GWT judgments are eternal.
 
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redleghunter

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According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief?
Excellent exegesis.
 
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