Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Dorothy Mae

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I am not sure of my opinion. The Bible speaks of the second death but I recall the parable Jesus told of the rich man speaking to Lazarus from hell. He was begging for some water. So that speaks of an ongoing circumstance.

Whichever it may be I am sure that God is right in His Perfect Justice.
Pretty much what a lot of Christians think and rightly so. Whatever happens, we believe there is justice and the unrepentant wicked will not do well.
 
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ClementofA

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Eternal punishment can simply mean "ultimate, final" (with no hope for a future resurrection) Hebrews 5:9 mentions "eternal salvation" yet we are not perpetually being saved for all eternity.

The word for punishment can mean correction in ancient Greek. So an eternal correction can be one that corrects someone with eternal corrective (salvific) consequences.

"Whereas eonian life with God “is clearly an end in itself—that is, valuable or worth having for its own sake—the punishment (kolasis) is just as clearly a means to an end” (p. 81). If the reading of kolasis as corrective punishment is correct, then that end can only be reconciliation with God."

continued at:

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2015/02/19/book-review-the-inescapable-love-of-god-part-4/
 
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ClementofA

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I agree and therefore annihilation is no punishment but will be considered a reward by the wicked.

Generally creatures, even insects, fight to survive & avoid death. They choose life. To be annihilated forever would only be a reward if the only alternative is endless sufferings. But relative to living & eventually becoming saved, endless annihilation is a punishment. A horrific punishment.

Even being tormented for trillions of years & then receiving immortal life with God forever would be a blessing compared to endless annihilation.

Who wants to die let alone be dead forever? Even animals & insects fight to survive. I'd rather be tormented for a trillion X a trillion X a trillion millenniums followed by salvation, than cease to be for ever and ever and ever.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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DM25

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If there were atheists on the site they would wholey agree and love your position. Your position is exactly what the atheists and evil men on earth want. That is what they hope and expect is waiting for them....nothing at all that matches the deeds of their lives. Those of your position want to tell us that this is punishment enough but I have talked to atheists and the like and they very much believe and hope what you say awaits them. No real judgement or punishment, just eternal sleep. That is their wish. They get off scot free for all the evil they ever did. If that is not a wicked man's dream come true, what is?

(It is, btw, terribly unjust as the more wicked a man is, the better he will like the eternal reward. No punishment in his experience at all just his eternal dreams fulfilled.)
Umm that is absolutely false. I never said there won't be torment in the lake of fire before they perish. READ what I wrote. The biggest sinners will receive the most torture, before fading out of existence. It is not a reward. There will be torment in the lake of fire., it just won't last forever.
 
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DM25

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Looks like the punishment is eternal in duration and punishment in quality. Eternal sleep or annihilation is a reward for the wicked. It is what they are all hoping for.
Again, I would rather have eternal torment than never has a chance to live again. And there WILL be punishment and torment, but the torment will not be eternal.
 
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DM25

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Matthew 25:46 (AMP)
46 Then these[unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”
If the eternal punishment of the unsaved doesn't last forever, then the eternal life of the saved doesn't last forever either. Someone who has ceased to exist (been annihilated) can no longer be punished, therefore, the punishment is not eternal, thus, the life of the saved is not eternal either. For this verse to be true, annihilationism has to be false.
Again, absolutely incorrect. The bible says the righteous have life, and the wicked will receive death. It is not a hard concept to understand and it is written pretty clearly.
 
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DM25

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There are a couple of things I notice in the OP and subsequent posts by the author. One, is the opening salvo assumes those who do not agree with the poster are against her. That the vast majority haven't thought about it much does not seem to be an option. So the line is an attack against those who disagree.

This view of people is continued in the way those who do not agree with the poster are pictured. The state of their underwear is addressed in a rather offensive manner. Again, if one does not agree with the poster, then one is in some kind of emotional frothing state. That people simply and calmly do not agree does not seem to be an option.

What cannot be denied by either side, is that the poster is offering an out or comfort for those who decide to live a life of selfish evil. This is a comfort no one in the Bible ever offers the wicked. The wicked are warned against coming judgement and the outcome. No one who knew God tells them not to worry, the worst that can happen is eternal sleep. No one.

So the logical position of those who want to have the mind of Christ is to warn against coming judgment and give no comfort of an out for anyone. Since no one who wrote the Bible apparently thought eternal sleep was coming and the wicked do not need to worry about suffering, but just the opposite, the OP is on very thin ice. The poster is comforting the wicked in their lifestyle. I would not want to have that charge laid against me when I stand before Him.
Firstly, I gave you countless scripture and I'm not making this up out of thin air, I am using the word of God. Secondly, you make a lot of assumptions that are completely baseless. I don't care if you agree with me or not, I know what the truth is based on my study of the bible. And lastly, who are you to say what my intentions are? You sound so anxious and not strong in the word that you are relying on eternal suffering for the wicked for your own comfort, which is a sin in itself. You are not relying on the word of God but your own understanding. The reason you are doing this is that either people told you that eternal death is a concept made up by lukewarms or people who fear hell, or you are just afraid to look at the biblical perspective because you are so used to your own worldview. I believed in eternal suffering, and I am open minded about it. But like I said, after carefully examining the bible (all the verses, as well as direct translations from the hebrew scripture), I can tell you the clear truth is that the punishment is death and there will be no more room for evil after God restores his creation. And this is based on SCRIPTURE not my own fleshly desires, unlike you who are only basing your conclusions on emotions like "OP wants to make sinners not fear God". You use baseless accusations/assumptions and emotional responses, rather than clear biblical evidence refuting my claim. Sorry, but I will go by what the bible clearly says, not by what the church teaches and what the popular beliefs are among Christians like yourself that were only passed on by people and a viewpoint that is not strongly supported by scripture. Not only does annihilation fits God's just and fair character and nature, but it also fits scripture. And if you disagree, I respect that. But don't be rude about it. I am certainly not opposed to eternal torment if that's what God really wants, so you guys shouldn't be opposed to eternal death if that's what God's wants to do as well because God is the ultimate ruler and the one who decides the fate of the wicked, not us.
 
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DM25

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Death does not refer to annihilation at any time in the scripture. The idea of an immortal soul is the opposite to annihilation so I still do not see why you are asking this question.
The assumption that it is a rule that all souls have to be immortal when they are created is false. God can do what he wants with his creation. It is the righteous who are guaranteed everlasting life.
 
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DM25

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I honestly find it interesting how so many people think that annihilation isn't a punishment. I feel like it is the ultimate punishment. I can't even imagine not existing and being completely destroyed, this thought really bothered me back when I was an atheist and I was depressed and lost sleep over it. It is most definitely a frightening thing to be destroyed with no chance of ever coming back, but I guess everyone has a different view on what punishment means.
 
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ClementofA

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I honestly find it interesting how so many people think that annihilation isn't a punishment. I feel like it is the ultimate punishment. I can't even imagine not existing and being completely destroyed, this thought really bothered me back when I was an atheist and I was depressed and lost sleep over it. It is most definitely a frightening thing to be destroyed with no chance of ever coming back, but I guess everyone has a different view on what punishment means.

Clearly being tortured forever would be worse than endless annihilation. Compared to being tortured forever, being annihilated would be described as "resting in peace". Even terminal patients who are suffering horribly often request that they be ended.

Also there would be no point to Love Omnipotent tormenting anyone hopelessly lost before endlessly annihilating them. That sounds sadistic.

Does God's love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Umm that is absolutely false. I never said there won't be torment in the lake of fire before they perish. READ what I wrote. The biggest sinners will receive the most torture, before fading out of existence. It is not a reward. There will be torment in the lake of fire., it just won't last forever.
No one in the Bible says it won't last forever so your post is absolutely false. No one in the Bible offers this hope to the wicked. Not saying it is not so. Just saying that no one who wrote the Bible offered this hope to any wicked. Makes it dubious at best. So your position offers hope to the wicked that Jesus did not offer. The only thing that is really curious, is why so many have such concern about the suffering of those who caused people in this life to suffer. Jesus did not seem to show that God cared about the just suffering of the wicked. He did not get pleasure in it. But He did not mention that they won't suffer for long and felt bad about them suffering finally.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I honestly find it interesting how so many people think that annihilation isn't a punishment. I feel like it is the ultimate punishment. I can't even imagine not existing and being completely destroyed, this thought really bothered me back when I was an atheist and I was depressed and lost sleep over it. It is most definitely a frightening thing to be destroyed with no chance of ever coming back, but I guess everyone has a different view on what punishment means.
This is because I have talked to a fair number of atheists and this is their hope and expectation after life. This is exactly what they want. They assume annihlation is their eternal destiny. When men hope for annihilation, it is not a punishment. Maybe you cannot imagine this but I assure you, this is exactly what atheists and wicked men want to await them. They know they will then never face judgement or suffer for the suffering they inflicted. They win. That is their view. Maybe you did not feel that way but you are the first atheist I ever heard say that and I doubt you said it when you were one.
 
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DM25

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This is because I have talked to a fair number of atheists and this is their hope and expectation after life. This is exactly what they want. They assume annihlation is their eternal destiny. When men hope for annihilation, it is not a punishment. Maybe you cannot imagine this but I assure you, this is exactly what atheists and wicked men want to await them. They know they will then never face judgement or suffer for the suffering they inflicted. They win. That is their view. Maybe you did not feel that way but you are the first atheist I ever heard say that and I doubt you said it when you were one.
Ok but are you completely ignoring the fact that I said there will be punishment and torment in hell as well? Atheists don't want that... And that will happen. Maybe for a long time, just not forever. So your argument still doesn't make sense. It will be like dying a painful death on earth, only worse. Is that what you want to hear? By your posts it seems like you will not settle for anything less than eternal torture and pain for the unrighteous forever which is kind of concerning to hope for that. Only God decides their punishment and fate, not you. Again, I agree with the others on here to trust God no matter what he decides. And that's what I choose to do as my focus during my walk is not on hell and what punishment for the wicked will be like (nor should that be the focus for any Christian, though it's ok to warn people about it). My focus will be on serving God.
 
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Umm that is absolutely false. I never said there won't be torment in the lake of fire before they perish. READ what I wrote. The biggest sinners will receive the most torture, before fading out of existence. It is not a reward. There will be torment in the lake of fire., it just won't last forever.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
….. I acknowledge there were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not negate anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced their belief?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Umm that is absolutely false. I never said there won't be torment in the lake of fire before they perish. READ what I wrote. The biggest sinners will receive the most torture, before fading out of existence. It is not a reward. There will be torment in the lake of fire., it just won't last forever.
The problem with that is the scriptures used to support this assume death, second death, that is, is where the annihilaion occurs. Death means end of soul for them. What you’re saying is a time delay which is not what they say their verses say. There is no hope of a limited time.

So while I appreciate the attempt to have the suffering punishment and limit it at the same time. you’re working from a position no one who wrote the Bible espoused.
 
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Again, absolutely incorrect. The bible says the righteous have life, and the wicked will receive death. It is not a hard concept to understand and it is written pretty clearly.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


 
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Dorothy Mae

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Ok but are you completely ignoring the fact that I said there will be punishment and torment in hell as well? Atheists don't want that... And that will happen. Maybe for a long time, just not forever. So your argument still doesn't make sense. It will be like dying a painful death on earth, only worse. Is that what you want to hear? By your posts it seems like you will not settle for anything less than eternal torture and pain for the unrighteous forever which is kind of concerning to hope for that. Only God decides their punishment and fate, not you. Again, I agree with the others on here to trust God no matter what he decides. And that's what I choose to do as my focus during my walk is not on hell and what punishment for the wicked will be like (nor should that be the focus for any Christian, though it's ok to warn people about it). My focus will be on serving God.
If your focus is on serving God, don’t falsely accuse others of evil
motives based on nothing whatsoever.
 
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Umm that is absolutely false. I never said there won't be torment in the lake of fire before they perish. READ what I wrote. The biggest sinners will receive the most torture, before fading out of existence. It is not a reward. There will be torment in the lake of fire., it just won't last forever.
What would be God's purpose in punishing people for an indeterminate period then killing them? The people God destroyed in the OT, I don't see any period of punishment prior to their deaths.
 
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