Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

SarahsKnight

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The GWT judgments are eternal.

And yet no word that humans who are judged at that point instead get the complete opposite treatment of destruction by fire. YOu'd think it'd be mentioned not just once or twice, but at every possible opportunity in the Bible, instead of so much emphasis on those numerous instances of so-called temporal judgments.


Examples of fire completely destroying people, cities and objects is temporal judgments.

On 2 Peter 2:6 alone, do you honestly believe that was not referring to the ultimate fate of the ungodly? Just a temporal death ... that according to the traditionalist view (depending on the sub-view about the intermediate stage between Earthly death and the afterlife) either immediately or will at some poin inevitably lead to eternal conscious torment?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No, salvation after their punishment in hell ends is their destiny. Rom.5:18-19.
That scripture doesn’t support your theory.
The Scriptures know nothing of such expressions.
You don’t know of the Judgement of the great and small and the books shall be opened and me. judged by the deeds of their lives? really?
Too bad. Love Omnipotent knows what's best for them. Their destiny is salvation.
Don’t know of this foreign diety. But God Almighty is the Judge of the Earth and if a man will not obey Him, which is the best for the man, He’s not going to force that man to be saved from his own choices.

I’m always skeptical of positions people take where they are unable to express their ideas in words but can only quote others or cut and paste links. It cannotbe a very coherent or rational view if the “believer” of such can’t remember it.
 
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redleghunter

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And yet no word that humans who are judged at that point instead get the complete opposite treatment of destruction by fire. YOu'd think it'd be mentioned not just once or twice, but at every possible opportunity in the Bible, instead of so much emphasis on those numerous instances of so-called temporal judgments.




On 2 Peter 2:6 alone, do you honestly believe that was not referring to the ultimate fate of the ungodly? Just a temporal death ... that according to the traditionalist view (depending on the sub-view about the intermediate stage between Earthly death and the afterlife) either immediately or will at some poin inevitably lead to eternal conscious torment?
Revelation 20: NASB
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21: NASB

5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 14: NASB
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Revelation 20: NASB
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21: NASB

5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


And those not found in the book of LIFE, yeah, going to the lake of fire which is called the second DEATH. How does this prove your point? How does Rev 14:11 prove it when not only is it almost clearly still happening on Earth, but the smoke going up forever is an obvious reference back to the prophecies about the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34. Oh, the fire was indeed called unquenchable, and its smoke went up "forever" ... and it was clearly wiped out. Not still burning. Revelation 14:11 also could not possibly be talking about the ultimate fate in Gehenna, because it would then require that traditionalists abandon the mainstream teaching that hell is being completely bereft of God's presence. In fact, some believe the eternal torment is simply the mental or emotional torment of that complete separation rather than physically being burned in fire forever. ... How then, if that is true, could this passage be speaking of hell when it says that the worshipers of the antichrist are being tormented with fire and brimstone IN the presence of the Lamb?

And in the book of Revelations, known for its symbolism and apocalyptic imagery, these are the verses you choose to prove eternal torment, no less.

... This debate is over. I grow weary. But thanks for at least actually posting some proof verses this time instead of just responding to my points with nothing but a "so" question.
 
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redleghunter

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And those not found in the book of LIFE, yeah, going to the lake of fire which is called the second DEATH. How does this prove your point? How does Rev 14:11 prove it when not only is it almost clearly still happening on Earth, but the smoke going up forever is an obvious reference back to the prophecies about the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34. Oh, the fire was indeed called unquenchable, and its smoke went up "forever" ... and it was clearly wiped out. Not still burning. Revelation 14:11 also could not possibly be talking about the ultimate fate in Gehenna, because it would then require that traditionalists abandon the mainstream teaching that hell is being completely bereft of God's presence. In fact, some believe the eternal torment is simply the mental or emotional torment of that complete separation rather than physically being burned in fire forever. ... How then, if that is true, could this passage be speaking of hell when it says that the worshipers of the antichrist are being tormented with fire and brimstone IN the presence of the Lamb?

And in the book of Revelations, known for its symbolism and apocalyptic imagery, these are the verses you choose to prove eternal torment, no less.

... This debate is over. I grow weary. But thanks for at least actually posting some proof verses this time instead of just responding to my points with nothing but a "so" question.

Quite a lot to skirt Revelation 14:11

Perhaps the only conclusion one could come to from an Annihilationist position is only the Beast and those who take the mark get the full lake of fire meal deal.

Also...not always do we see fire actually consuming people in the Bible. See Daniel 3.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Quite a lot to skirt Revelation 14:11

Hardly. Tell me how, if hell is complete separation from God's presence, that everyone is in hell here being eternally tormented IN God's presence. Simply telling me I am skirting a proof verse is not going to work.


Also...not always do we see fire actually consuming people in the Bible. See Daniel 3.

Okay, I have to quit sometime. Let me make this one the last one. .... I didn't even think I would have to bring up this instance to prove that every time God's fire has been used against someone in judgment in the Bible, it has destroyed them - not tortured them permanently without actually consuming them, back when I first addressed it. Not only did this fire not come from God - but instead from a vengeful opponent who wanted to punish the three faithful men, He was protecting His faithful from being harmed by it period. This is not an instance of punishment from Him, so I do not see how Daniel 3 is even a relevant instance to bring up.

Just going to listen to your response if you choose to make one.
 
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ClementofA

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You don’t know of the Judgement of the great and small and the books shall be opened and me. judged by the deeds of their lives? really?

Actually what i said was "The Scriptures know nothing of such expressions."

In response to you saying this:

"There comes a day when life and it’s choices are OVER.
But judgement is final. There is no parole. The Bible refers to final judgement."

Don’t know of this foreign diety. But God Almighty is the Judge of the Earth and if a man will not obey Him, which is the best for the man, He’s not going to force that man to be saved from his own choices.

Love Omnipotent has all eternity to win "the man". Do you really think man's will is going to win in the long run? Yes & you also believe the compassion of Love Omnipotent has an expiry date like a carton of milk gone bad.

https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Actually what i said was "The Scriptures know nothing of such expressions."

In response to you saying this:

"There comes a day when life and it’s choices are OVER.
But judgement is final. There is no parole. The Bible refers to final judgement."
The description in Revelation when the great and small stand before the Judgement and the books of the deeds of their lives are opened and the resulting decision by the Judge bespeaks final. Those who go to Heaven are not going to be continually judged and those thrown into the lake of fire are not given any hope of a change of mind later. It is up to you to prove that there is a parole later out of the lake of fire. Besides, no one thinks incarceration makes anyone love doing good. Might make them think twice about doing evil, not it does NOT make them love doing good. And loving doing good are the kind God wants in his home, not men who are afraid of doing wrong.
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to win "the man".
There is no description of God in those terms nor any hope of Him doing any such thing. And His goal is not described as "Winning the man" as though a man lost for eternity is God missing his goal. It is his will that all men repent and come to aknowledge of salvation but it is not a goal of His that all men do this.

His goal, if you want to put it that way, is for men to freely choose to love God and love their neighbor as themselves. This I can easily back up in scripture. His goal has never been that men do not suffer the just rewards of their dee. That he offers rescue is what He can justly do. But if a man chooses to hate God and hate right and love selfishness whatever the cost to others, then this is a kind o man God will not let ruin Heaven.
Do you really think man's will is going to win in the long run?
It is God's will that man's will is recognized and upheld. In the end there will be two kinds of people, those who said to God "your will be done" and those to whom God says "your will be done." God is not a tyrant forcing being good on anyone who prefers the self.

Yes & you also believe the compassion of Love Omnipotent has an expiry date like a carton of milk gone bad.
You love the perpetrators of evil such that you do to seem to want them to taste justice but have you given any thought to those who suffered because of their sin? Is only the criminal the recepient of your compassion?

It is curious that you have decided to call God (assume that is who you mean) by a term no one who knew Him used. I guess that makes it easier to make up limits as to what He can do. Just use a different term and all the Biblical concepts are gone. You, yourself, can decide what your newly christened diety can and will do. Convenient. I guess I have too much respect for God to make a name and change how he operates to take that seriously.

By the way, do you work hard so that perpetrators of evil, criminals, in your state are released so their suffering is ended? God would be just to ask you if your compassion extends only to criminals He sentences or also to all criminals. It would be just to ask you if you would like all the criminals released after some time from jail just because Jail is a very aweful place to be. This is what you are asking Him to do. And if you do not do this, has your compassion an expiration date? Or is it limited only to imaginary people?
 
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Der Alte

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Actually, your argument is the one based on silence. I gave you a detailed explanation on the context of Matt 25:46. This verse in the context of this passage DOES CONTAIN the word "kingdom" (v.34). So for you to claim that my argument is based on silence is a false charge. You and I know that the Bible does not contain the word "trinity" but I suppose you believe in that concept don't you? Furthermore, Rev 20:4 states that the martyred saints who were beheaded live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. If there is no literal kingdom, what and whom do they rule over? You can choose to take this figuratively if you like, but to me a literal translation fits quite nicely with my view. I don't have to resort to allegorizing the plain meaning of scripture. Thus I find your view to be unconvincing.
That depends whether you believe only the unsaved are present at the GWT. Regardless, do you believe the GWT and the sheep/goat judgment is the same event.
You are putting words in my mouth so to speak as I made no such claim. I specifically stated that judgment of the sheep/goats only applies to the age of Jesus' millennial reign. I did not write that Jesus' rule ends after that time. That age only applies to the Jesus' millennial rule. Of course, Jesus continues to reign after that time. The scripture is clear:
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 1 Cor 15:25
This post came too late last night for me to deal with, so intending to address it today I went to bed. And I hate it when some situation I am dealing with nibbles at my brain and wakes me up about 5:30 AM.
.....Who was standing there listening to Jesus when He spoke the words in Matt 25:31-46? Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes etc. but what is important is who was not standing there. Two old guys like you and me with a tablet in our hands with several Bible versions in which, with a click, we can call up any verse instantly.
.....Because copies of Bible scrolls were so expensive it is very unlikely that any of Jesus' audience even owned a copy of the OT at all. And if someone in the audience did own a copy of scriptures they almost certainly did not have it in their hands where they could readily look up scriptures while Jesus was talking
.....And most important what none of them had was a copy of John's apocalypse which would not be written until a few decades later.
.....Having said all that, when Jesus audience heard Him say "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" how could they possibly understand that as referring to a thousand year aion which had never been mentioned at that time.
.....With all that out of the way what would Jesus' audience in Matt 25:31-46 understand? The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died young, old, men, women, children, infants, they considered it permanent and it rarely involved punishment. When Jesus said "eternal punishment" would the Sadducees understand it as death or something worse?
 
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ClementofA

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those thrown into the lake of fire are not given any hope of a change of mind later. It is up to you to prove that there is a parole later out of the lake of fire.

No, it is up to you to prove otherwise as per:

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

Any proof i gave you you wouldn't believe anyway, e.g.:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html


It is his will that all men repent and come to aknowledge of salvation but it is not a goal of His that all men do this.

It's His WILL but not His GOAL? Seriously?

God is not a tyrant forcing being good on anyone who prefers the self.

He's not a tyrant...yet as i posted above: If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

If you don't think Love Omnipotent uses "force" to get men to repent, you should start reading your bible, e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5, Daniel 4, & many other passages. Hades & the LOF are just more of the same. God, His nature & His ways don't change. What changes is every created being for the good when Love Omnipotent has completed His pottery work.

You love the perpetrators of evil such that you do toseem to want them to taste justice but have you given any thought to those who suffered because of their sin? Is only the criminal the recepient of your compassion?

Jesus said, love your enemies.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

Besides, no one thinks incarceration makes anyone love doing good. Might make them think twice about doing evil, not it does NOT make them love doing good.

The incarcerated rich man was hearing the word of God (Lk.16:19-31). Compare 1 Pet.3:18-20; 4:6).

His goal has never been that men do not suffer the just rewards of their dee.

His punishments are always corrective, not sadistic.

That he offers rescue is what He can justly do. But if a man chooses to hate God and hate right and love selfishness whatever the cost to others, then this is a kind o man God will not let ruin Heaven.

Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem are the wicked. Those gates will never be shut. Eventually every wicked one will be saved & enter those gates into the city.

It is curious that you have decided to call God (assume that is who you mean) by a term no one who knew Him used.

Do you use the term "Trinity"?

Scripture says God is love & omnipotent. Hence He is Love omnipotent.

I guess that makes it easier to make up limits as to what He can do. Just use a different term and all the Biblical concepts are gone. You, yourself, can decide what your newly christened diety can and will do. Convenient. I guess I have too much respect for God to make a name and change how he operates to take that seriously.

Do you use the term "Trinity"?

By the way, do you work hard so that perpetrators of evil, criminals, in your state are released so their suffering is ended? God would be just to ask you if your compassion extends only to criminals He sentences or also to all criminals. It would be just to ask you if you would like all the criminals released after some time from jail just because Jail is a very aweful place to be. This is what you are asking Him to do. And if you do not do this, has your compassion an expiration date? Or is it limited only to imaginary people?

What does this have to do with the salvation of those in "hell"? They will be saved, leave "hell" & enter the New Jerusalem. Does this make you sad & bitter? Are you like the envious prodigal son's brother?

https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
 
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Der Alte

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Hardly. Tell me how, if hell is complete separation from God's presence, that everyone is in hell here being eternally tormented IN God's presence. Simply telling me I am skirting a proof verse is not going to work.
Okay, I have to quit sometime. Let me make this one the last one. .... I didn't even think I would have to bring up this instance to prove that every time God's fire has been used against someone in judgment in the Bible, it has destroyed them - not tortured them permanently without actually consuming them, back when I first addressed it. Not only did this fire not come from God - but instead from a vengeful opponent who wanted to punish the three faithful men, He was protecting His faithful from being harmed by it period. This is not an instance of punishment from Him, so I do not see how Daniel 3 is even a relevant instance to bring up.
Just going to listen to your response if you choose to make one.
Your objection is in error. There is another instant when God caused a fire in a bush but it did not consume the bush. The point is, if God wants fire to destroy it will destroy. But if God does not want fire to destroy it will not destroy.
 
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Der Alte

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And those not found in the book of LIFE, yeah, going to the lake of fire which is called the second DEATH. How does this prove your point? How does Rev 14:11 prove it when not only is it almost clearly still happening on Earth, but the smoke going up forever is an obvious reference back to the prophecies about the destruction of Edom in Isaiah 34. Oh, the fire was indeed called unquenchable, and its smoke went up "forever" ... and it was clearly wiped out. Not still burning. Revelation 14:11 also could not possibly be talking about the ultimate fate in Gehenna, because it would then require that traditionalists abandon the mainstream teaching that hell is being completely bereft of God's presence.
In fact, some believe the eternal torment is simply the mental or emotional torment of that complete separation rather than physically being burned in fire forever.
What some people "believe" is irrelevant in the absence of scriptural evidence.

... How then, if that is true, could this passage be speaking of hell when it says that the worshipers of the antichrist are being tormented with fire and brimstone IN the presence of the Lamb?
And in the book of Revelations, known for its symbolism and apocalyptic imagery, these are the verses you choose to prove eternal torment, no less.
... This debate is over. I grow weary. But thanks for at least actually posting some proof verses this time instead of just responding to my points with nothing but a "so" question.
The old "symbolism and apocalyptic imagery" dodge. When scripture as written contradicts some folks' assumptions/presuppositions, no problem just dismiss it with, what I call, the SPAM-Fig argument; symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative. Anything but literal. There is a well known adage which says "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to seek any other sense."
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms the “lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable. “The lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die. Rev 21:4-8 is one continuous narrative parts of the passage cannot be yanked out and presumed to refer to a previous time.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No, it is up to you to prove otherwise as per:

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

Any proof i gave you you wouldn't believe anyway, e.g.:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html




It's His WILL but not His GOAL? Seriously?



He's not a tyrant...yet as i posted above: If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

If you don't think Love Omnipotent uses "force" to get men to repent, you should start reading your bible, e.g. 1 Cor.5:4-5, Daniel 4, & many other passages. Hades & the LOF are just more of the same. God, His nature & His ways don't change. What changes is every created being for the good when Love Omnipotent has completed His pottery work.



Jesus said, love your enemies.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen



The incarcerated rich man was hearing the word of God (Lk.16:19-31). Compare 1 Pet.3:18-20; 4:6).



His punishments are always corrective, not sadistic.



Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem are the wicked. Those gates will never be shut. Eventually every wicked one will be saved & enter those gates into the city.



Do you use the term "Trinity"?

Scripture says God is love & omnipotent. Hence He is Love omnipotent.



Do you use the term "Trinity"?



What does this have to do with the salvation of those in "hell"? They will be saved, leave "hell" & enter the New Jerusalem. Does this make you sad & bitter? Are you like the envious prodigal son's brother?

https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
Alright Clement, I see you’ve made up a new name for God to fit the imagined values you think He has. Since neither He nor Jesus nor anyone who we know knew them uses either the name you invented (a very uncomplimentary one I might add) and none of them describe his values as you do, it is likely a name and description He does not recognize. But since you can mostly paste links and demand we prove whatever you say is contradicted, thoughts no one who knew God had, it will be impossible to get you to see anything but your imagined position. You’ve made up your mind and no other info is allowed in. God Himself cannot break through until the day you stand before him and he tells you that the name you’ve allowed yourself to personally christen him with is unacceptabl.
 
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ClementofA

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Alright Clement, I see you’ve made up a new name for God to fit the imagined values you think He has. Since neither He nor Jesus nor anyone who we know knew them uses either the name you invented (a very uncomplimentary one I might add) and none of them describe his values as you do, it is likely a name and description He does not recognize. But since you can mostly paste links and demand we prove whatever you say is contradicted, thoughts no one who knew God had, it will be impossible to get you to see anything but your imagined position. You’ve made up your mind and no other info is allowed in. God Himself cannot break through until the day you stand before him and he tells you that the name you’ve allowed yourself to personally christen him with is unacceptabl.

What "name" is it you allege i've called God that (in your baseless ill-founded opinion) He, Love Omnipotent, would consider "a very uncomplimentary one"?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
 
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ViaCrucis

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Scripture provides enough material by which one can make arguments for perpetualism, annhilationism, and even universalism. In large part because Scripture doesn't really give us a thorough, dogmatic way of describing the ultimate fate of the wicked--it does talk about it, but the language is couched in images and words which aren't always the most clear in ways we may prefer in order to build a dogmatic position.

Scripture speaks of destruction, but the destruction of the wicked is not necessary the annihilation of the wicked; Scripture uses the word aionion to describe the fires/state of the wicked but this word does not necessarily indicate endlessness.

Trying to argue that Scripture clearly teaches or supports position X on these matters are almost always over-stating the cases; in regard to any of the three positions.

I personally think Annhilationism is the weakest of the three arguments. Feel free, however, to disagree.

My position largely boils down to a kind of agnostic, or at least non-dogmatic, one. That is, I simply don't think that a firmly dogmatic position is entirely possible here using Scripture alone. I also don't think that, even when we allow ourselves to be informed by the broad, historic Christian tradition that we can get very dogmatic either; as it is noteworthy that at no time in the history of the Church has there ever been a dogmatic pronouncement. That, I think, is itself important; as Christian theology concerns itself with the salvation of the world, not the damnation of the wicked; damnation is a secondary and more peripheral matter of theology that exists as a consequence of the theology of salvation, and one that has never been treated with anything resembling the same level of dogmatic precision as Christology has, for example.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Dorothy Mae

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What "name" is it you allege i've called God that (in your baseless ill-founded opinion) He, Love Omnipotent, would consider "a very uncomplimentary one"?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
You already mentioned it above in caps as though that makes it nice. It’s like calling someone “kind” instead of their name. You think it’s a compliment but no one names their children terms like “strong man” or “quick thinker” as though what others get out of then defines them.

I use the term that God Himself or Jesus uses. I think giving Him the courtesy of choosing the name He would like to be addressed as is more honoring than daring to make up a name NO ONE who knew Him ever used. And yes, it is insulting. Since you don’t even know what name you made up or won’t admit it, it’s useless to discuss this with you.
 
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ClementofA

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You already mentioned it above in caps as though that makes it nice.

Love Omnipotent?

It’s like calling someone “kind” instead of their name.

Love Omnipotent isn't a "name", silly. It's a description. Like light, merciful, compassionate, omniscient, omnipresent, trinity, etc.

Did you ever refer to God as "God" or "Trinity", etc? To turn your unfounded accusation
back on you, that's "like calling someone “kind” instead of their name."

You think it’s a compliment

Since i've never expressed that i "think it's a compliment", how would you have any clue that's what i think?

but no one names their children terms like “strong man” or “quick thinker” as though what others get out of then defines them.

Many people call their children "darling", "sweetheart", etc.

And again, Love Omnipotent is not God's "name". No more than God, Trinity, etc. Have you ever referred to Him as God or Trinity or Omniscient, etc?

God Himself describes Himself as love in the Sacred Scriptures. Which also reveal Him as being Omnipotent. Hence Love Omnipotent. Get it?

Similarly Isa. 9:6 says "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Did you see that: "Mighty...Father". Compare "Love Omnipotent".

I use the term that God Himself or Jesus uses.

How many times have you used terms Jesus & Scripture never uses, like Trinity, Omniscient, etc? Then here you're complaining about Love Omnipotent. LOL

I think giving Him the courtesy of choosing the name He would like to be addressed as is more honoring than daring to make up a name NO ONE who knew Him ever used.

Then perhaps you'll mend your ways & cease with the references to Trinity, omniscient, etc. Also God, which is not His name.

And yes, it is insulting.

What's insulting about an accurate biblically based description of God as Love Omnipotent? Do you prefer the term Trinity which never appears in scripture? OTOH God is "love" does occur in the Bible.
 
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redleghunter

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upload_2018-7-16_13-18-35.png
 
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Ron Gurley

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The 2 eternal spiritual realms created by God and inhabitants:

1. HEAVEN...SAVED BELIEVERS + TRI-UNE GOD + ANGELS...===>PRESENCE

Matthew 6:10
‘Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

Isaiah 66:1[ Heaven Is God’s Throne ]
Thus says the Lord, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool.

2. "LAKE OF FIRE" ...LOST/WICKED + UNHOLY 3 + CONCEPTS OF DEATH/HADES + UNBELIEVERS===>SEPARATED

Revelation 20:10...the fate of unbelievers and the unholy 3
And the devil (satan,serpent,dragon,Lucifer, etc) who deceived them was thrown into the "lake of fire" and brimstone,
where the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet (anti-spirit) are also;
and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15...the fate of unbelievers
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the (Lamb's) "book of life", he was thrown into the "lake of fire".
 
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Der Alte

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... <SarahsK>On 2 Peter 2:6 alone, do you honestly believe that was not referring to the ultimate fate of the ungodly? Just a temporal death ... that according to the traditionalist view (depending on the sub-view about the intermediate stage between Earthly death and the afterlife) either immediately or will at some poin inevitably lead to eternal conscious torment?<end>.
2 Pet 2:6 is referring to temporal punishment in this world.
2 Peter 2:6
(6) if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
How do we know that the punishment in 2 Pet 2:6 is temporal not their eternal fate? Because Jesus said there was something more going to happen to them on the day of judgement which is still in the future.
Matthew 10:15
(15) Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Matthew 11:24
(24) But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."
When interpreting scripture we must consider the full context not just the verse we are trying to interpret.
 
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