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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    That's a bit presumptuous, I've been a Baptist for as long as I can remember and I've never been a Calvinist, nor have any of my Baptist friends ever claimed that title.

    Every Baptist church congregation is autonomous. So while there are probably Baptist churches out there that proclaim the teaches of Calvin, the churches I have attended, do not.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I believe it's because Jesus and His apostles actually spoke of Gehenna, hell and Hades often. They did give some fiery speeches.

    Hell NASB

    Hades NASB

    Eternal punishment

    Lake of Fire

    Will not inherit the Kingdom of God

    Will not enter the Kingdom of God/Heaven


    We can add these to the mix as well:


    REVELATION 22:15; 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9–10; GALATIANS 5:19–21; EPHESIANS 5:5; 1 TIMOTHY 1:9; HEBREWS 12:14
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    They would be called Reformed Baptists.

    What amazes me on this site is the lack of understanding that Reformed theology does not necessarily equal Calvinist. It's actually Covenant theology.
     
  4. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    https://www.onenewsnow.com/church/2018/02/05/showdown-looms-over-sbc-and-calvinism

    2/5/18

    A longtime Southern Baptist leader warns there is a theological civil war brewing over the influence of Calvinist leaders within the denomination. (Not in article, here are a few of them, R. Albert Mohler Jr., president SBC’s seminary, John Piper and Mark Driscoll.

    Hemphill, 69, the former president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, announced Feb. 1 that he is seeking the nomination of SBC president in June.

    Hemphill's announcement comes after J.D. Greear, 44, a North Carolina pastor, has been nominated to be SBC president for the second time in a row.

    6/12/18


    Greear takes over as president in the midst of the 11th consecutive year of Southern Baptist decline.

    dying


    What is Greear, Is He a Calvinist?

    He wrote an article by this title in 2012 - Pastor JD Are you a calvinist?

    Seemingly unable to give a straight yes or no answer, he skirts the question, then gives the reasons why He is a Calvinist.

    How does the Baptist house, "autonomous churches" stand being so divided on who can be saved.

    Diametrically opposed.

    Not a bad gig, work one day a week, pull a old Spurgeon sermon and make it your own.

    The SBC's Lifeway Christian Resources surveyed U.S. churches in 2010 to compile its formal compensation study. This research of 3,670 respondents found that the average full-time Southern Baptist pastor made $55,829 in average compensation and a total pay package including retirement and insurance averaging $66,275. Bi-vocational pastors, or those with an additional job beyond head pastor, made $18,971 in compensation and $20,667 in their total pay package. Ministry-related expenses such as "travel expense; expenses for conventions and continuing education; expenses for ministry-related book, tapes, and periodicals and ministry-related hospitality expenses" are not included in these compensation figures.

    https://bizfluent.com/info-12022135-income-pastor-southern-baptist-church.html
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What's your point?
     
  6. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    A House divided against itself will not stand, and the evidence is that for the past 11 years Baptist attendance has been dying.

    Piper underwent successful surgery on February 14, 2006 for prostate cancer.

    His father died on March 6, 2007

    Not that this has any significance, but while looking into the new wave of "popular" calvinist into the SBC - the decline taking place simultaneously, maybe it is all just a coincidence.

    What is your point, did you think that there wasn't one to be made?

    I Personally witnessed a group of new believers getting into Piper, didn't know much about him at the time, they learned calvinism, and several of them, their faith was shipwrecked by conscience - there is still more hope for them, and for those that it must have happened to elsewhere, led them astray... And the calvinist will say, they were never saved to begin with, or they would have stayed with us.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OMT, while i tend to generally concur with your remarks above, are you aware of the "etymological fallacy":

    "Attempting to derive the meaning of an adjective from the noun it came from is a special case of the etymological fallacy. The etymological fallacy basically consists of claiming that a word’s current meaning is the same as the meaning it had in the past, or the same as the meaning of words it was derived from. This error has also been called “the root fallacy” or “the root word fallacy”. A word’s meaning is not determined by its origin, but rather by its usage." https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-aionios-based-on-aion.8040292/#post-72088924

    I recently responded to that comment by Mark Corbett here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-5#post-72747206

    Also why do you consider the "age" referred to to be 1000 years or finite, as opposed to being eternal?
     
  8. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Words can change meaning over time. However, you would have to demonstrate to me how aionios translated as eternal can undergo a complete change in meaning to a totally opposite meaning derived from age which denotes a finite duration of time. The age that I referred to is the Millennial reign of Christ which is commonly understood to be 1,000 year and is not eternal.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What exactly is a non-denominational?

    Is your church Trinitarian?
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about the words "immortal" (1 Tim.6:16) & "incorrutible" (imperishable, 1 Tim.1:17)? Or the phrase "no end" of years (Psa.102:27)? Similarly His kingdom has "no end" (Lk.1:33). And "eternal" (aidios) power (Rom.1:16)?

    BTW, if Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Fair enough...that is something i'd like to muse on when time allows, but i'll leave it to others whose position needs to disagree with you there to try to prove otherwise.

    What is your reasoning that the age referred to in Mt.25:46 is not eternal, but rather the millennium?
     
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That claim has been answered & disproven before, e.g.:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

    OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

    12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It means He is on earth. Omnipresent.

    "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

    "27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘- We are His offspring.’ "

    https://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipresent.html
     
  14. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    I was formerly of the Ethnon/People, a stranger, cut-off from the Promises of Elohim, But in Messiah have become a Citizen of the House of Israel, Ephesians 2:11-12, Galatians 3:29, Isaiah 41:8

    A Member of His Body of Called out ones, which is a Mystery as to how He is joined to the members- Ephesians 5:30-32 (not a label from a denomination) Picked Non-Denom Because Israelite was not a choice. surnamed myself after one of the choices He gives Isaiah 44:5

    Can you show me, the baptist, presbyterian, lutheran, a gate of any denomination that goes into the new Jerusalem. Revelation 21:12, Revelation 22:14

    What gate do you hope to enter into the New Jerusalem, Myself, through the Yissachar Gate 1 Chronicles 12:32


    • B'reshyt - Bet Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw The first Six letters that spell the first Word/Phrase in the scriptures, that is translated in most English bibles as In the beginning

    • Enlarged Bet in the Torah Scrolls_ The Pictograph (P.) is a House and when Bet prefixes a word - In, by, on
    • Bet-Resh The first two letters together spell Bar Son H1247 (P.) head of man - *First (Yeshua spoke Aramaic on the Cross)
    • Bet-Resh-Aleph The first three spell Bara - Created H1254 (P.) Ox Strength
    • First three Letters ~ House Son Created
    • The 4th letter Shin_ Something Sharp, Press, and Two H8127 (P.) two teeth, the Root is H8150 c. Pierce
    • The 4th and 5th Shin-Yad spells Shay Gift or Present H7862 (P.) Arm
    • The 4th, 5th and 6th Shin Yad Taw Spells Shiet Set, Appointed H7896 (P.) Cross
    • House Son created, two pierced arms gift appointed cross ET
    • רֵאשִׁית Resh Aleph Shin Yad Taw reshyt *Beginning, Firstfruits H7225
    In the beginning House Son created, two pierced arms gift appointed cross ET

    • אשִׁ Aleph Shin = esh Fire, burning H784
    • Aleph Taw ET ; The First and Last letters of the Hebrew Alphabet
    • יהוה YHWH = Pictographically Arm Behold Nail Behold
    • Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Bar/Son

    • Bet ~ Bar ~ Son

    • Resh ~ Ruach ~ Spirit

    • Aleph ~ AB ~ Father
    Let Us make man in Our Image

    Shema Yisrael YAHUWAH Eloheinu YAHUWAH Echad

    Note: Yad for Yod Taw for Tav
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  15. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    The context of that verse has to do with the judgment of the nations otherwise know as the sheep-goat judgment and is not the great white throne judgment which occurs later. This judgment occurs right after Christ's second coming where he judges the nations as to how they treated the brethren (v.40). Consequently, Jesus commands the goats who mistreated the brethren to go into age-during punishment and the sheep who treated the brethren with compassion to go into age-during life. The next age after this age (church age) is the millennial reign of Christ on earth. Hence the sheep are people alive at Christ's return who enter into the millennial reign (age-during) of Christ on earth while correspondingly the goats are punished for the same age-during period of time.
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That sounds reasonable & is a plausible scenario. Do the goats go to the lake of fire (v.41)?
     
  17. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    That's a possibility but since the text is silent on that, I think it's best to also be silent regarding where they go.
     
  18. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    If you want to twist the plain meaning of the verse, that is certainly your prerogative. The verse does not say God sees into hell as you have added your own interpretation to the verse. The fact that you're certainly not in heaven at the present time just goes to prove that you're not in His presence.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Many scholars & early church fathers have supported universalism, so why would i care what some pro hell biased cloned lexicons say? Though the sales of them must bring in a lot of cash, eh?

    Accredited among who - the pro hell - cloned lexicons - boys club?

    The Greek scholar & early church father, Origen, in his commentary on John implies that aionios life is finite:

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. " (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...rding to John, Books 13-32, By Origen&f=false

    BDAG's (W.F. Danker, reviser & editor) entry on aionios omits that & generally ignores Origen, except for one reference to support the BDAG bias. Likewise Danker omits many other references to aionios as finite duration in ancient Koine Greek. Such as, for many examples, the following:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    Elsewhere BDAG is perhaps a bit less biased against a universalist interpretation of Scripture. For example, re the word "destruction" that occurs at 2 Thess.1:9, Danker continues his bias re aionios with a reference to "eternal death", but also states:

    "...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..." (p702)

    https://translate.academic.ru/ὄλεθρος/el/xx/

    A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

    Which opposes rendering aionios there as "eternal", favoring it being finite.

    1 Cor.5:4-5 also uses the word in the context of a positive purpose:

    4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

    Which compares to the following remark:

    "In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

    However being from uncited wiki sources, we won't put much stock in that until such can be verified from other sources.

    Returning to Danker's quote of "eternal death" above re the BDAG entry on ὄλεθρος, I will note that Scripture never refers to "death" as being "eternal". To the contrary, it speaks of death being abolished (1 Cor.15:26; 2 Tim.1:10; Rev.21:4).

    F.W. Danker also remarked regarding ἀποκαταλλάσσω:

    "...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Checkout the orthodox universalism majority in the early church (and a hope for universalism majority in the present day church):


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/


    If you think the Bible & the early church & the modern church are all wrong, you will have to prove it.

    If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
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