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Featured Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DM25, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    Do you deny that Matt 25:46 (which BADG cites) refers to the Millennial age and to "eternity" instead? Sorry but you and the BADG are wrong on this one as this particular verse refers to the Millennial Kingdom and thus age-long and not "eternal" is the proper translation.
    "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'" (YLT)
    While I'm at it, might as well throw in a quote from the expositor G. Campbell Morgan who wrote these words:
    In passing, and in connection with the great theme which we are only touching upon, let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is-" unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. (God's Methods With Man; p 185-86)
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other words and phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other words and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:]

    Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
    [3]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13] 1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does the UR crowd think that Jesus will give His followers an finite period of glory then they will eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionas” is paired with “without end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” People could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

     
  3. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Eternal punishment

    Not Eternal Punishing

    Eternal Destruction

    Not Eternal Destroying

    One leaves nothing left. Matthew 20:18

    While the other is blasphemous

    Calvinist are so special to God he picked them, they had no free will to refuse - Yet all the rest that are born besides them, never had a chance to believe, then calvinism teaches they burn in hell forever... Your doctrines make Him spew, right out of His mouth... Sickening
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    See my post immediately above. This is a prime example of heterodox cherry picking sources to support assumptions/presuppositions. What makes you think that the 2 cherry picked sources, you posted, trump the approximately 180-200 years of combined scholarship of Bauer, Dan ker, Arndt and Gingrich? If you think BDAG is wrong you will have to prove it and that requires more than quoting an opposing opinion as you have done.
     
  5. Oldmantook

    Oldmantook Well-Known Member

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    I just proved it. Do I need to ask you again? Does Matt 25:46 refer to the Millennial Age or not? A simple yes or no will suffice. As you know Scripture does not contradict itself so even "cherry-picked" verses have to be reconciled.
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nonsensical distinction which does not exist in Greek or English. Can you provide a Greek grammar which makes this distinction? If "eternal punishment" does not mean "eternal punishing" then "eternal life" does not mean "eternal living." Jesus is quoted as using the word "death" 17 times. If Jesus had meant "eternal death" in Matt 25:46 that is what He would have said. The Sadduccees were part of Jesus audience in Matt 25. They did not believe in the resurrection. They knew that everyone died old, young, men, women, children, infants and it was permanent. When Jesus said "eternal punishment" they would not have understood it as death.
     
  7. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What does "ever and ever" mean? (To the end of the ages) This is preceded by "day and night". We read in Genesis 1 "God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” Day and night has been around from the beginning. Still there was a beginning and an end. Rev 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Gen 8:2 "While the earth remaineth" This would indicate that the Earth is not going to remain forever and Science can confirm this.

    Even time does not remain forever. "Ever and ever" cold mean ages or to the end of ages or the end of time as we know it. Isaiah 34:4 "All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree"

    Science: Carl Sargon - Neil deGrasse Tyson tells us we are star stuff:

    “The atoms of our bodies are traceable to stars that manufactured them in their cores and exploded these enriched ingredients across our galaxy, billions of years ago. For this reason, we are biologically connected to every other living thing in the world. We are chemically connected to all molecules on Earth. And we are atomically connected to all atoms in the universe. We are not figuratively, but literally stardust.”

    Ever or ages is a measurement of time with a beginning and a end.
     
  8. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    Baptist teaching, Everyone is Dead in sins, God unconditionally picked me, He only died for the Elect like me - His Grace is irresistible, I will never fall away.

    For those God doesn't pick, Dead in Sins, and there is Not a chance in hell you will believe, He didn't die for you, No Grace, Into the fire for you to burn forever

    Born of no choice of their own, never had an opportunity to believe, and for all that, they get tortured forever...

    So many things wrong with this, which no Baptist shall be able to understand.

    Why is God long-suffering for whosoever will to believe and repent - Long-suffering, waiting on Himself to do, what baptist say that He is only able to do 2 Peter 3:9 That makes ZERO sense

    and one can resist the Holy Spirit, a baptist does it nearly every time they open their mouth. Acts of the Apostles 7:51

    terminators are nothing compared to the calvinators for cruelty
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  9. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    I am in the presence of God now. And yet He is in heaven. Does that mean I am in heaven? God sees onto hell
    He is not present in hell.
     
  10. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    No need for name calling. I'm not a calvinist.
     
  11. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When the Bible talks about the Eyes of the Lord, this is a reference to the Angels.
     
  12. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We were talking about eternal torment, not eternal punishment. I do not think that the serpent will ever get his old job back again, so the consequences are eternal or ever lasting in that regard. Even though the Earth is going to be restored to God plan and purpose.
     
  13. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    By associating yourself as a Baptist, that is what you are identified with, You labeled Yourself that way, not His Isaiah 44:5

    deleted because I was a dunce, and was not able to understand, need clues like (sic)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  14. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    I was not speaking against you. I was agreeing. You seem to be a bit lacking on your sence of humor or either I am a poor jokester. I did not mean to upset you so.
     
  15. SonOfZion

    SonOfZion Member

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    My apologies, now that I look at it again, HalleluYaH

    my humor button was malfunctioning.

    Sorry about that.
     
  16. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any scripture to support that? I'm not doubting your statement just asking.
     
  17. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    You’re welcome! I’m not sure separation from God is the worst part since some of them hated Him. Their speech was and still is very hate filled. They really hated Jesus. I think being separated from all that gave them pleasure and comfort is the worst, but that’s just my thoughts about it.
     
  18. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    Good point although this looks like a description of judgement not fellowship. Those who asked God for justice for their murder also might see the justice carried out and these were men. Thanks for the input.
     
  19. Dan the deacon

    Dan the deacon Well-Known Member

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    That happens easily when dealing with the Calvin crew. No problem brother. You are doing a good work here.
     
  20. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Only if your corporeal structure has reached room temperature and no longer functions.
     
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