Why are most Christians so accepting of magic

[JacksBratt]

So epitomy of a dark sorceror using dark arts is a showman doing card tricks. Probably explains why they are not running the world.

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

If you dont know your enemy, you cant fight.

If you underestimate your enemy, you endanger those you hope to protect.

If you ignore your enemies, you will perish by them.

If you have imaginery enemies you are considered to be mentally ill and you will probably have lots of unneeded stress on your life.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Sorry, I don't understand your point.

Point is : if you have an ability to do "dark arts" and you are just performing paid tricks for audience then logically you really do not have access to dark arts but rather you are a performing artist.

If someone could do something supernatural they could write their own checks.

Or they could have take a cool million from James Randi

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge - Wikipedia

TLDR version ;

The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge was an offer by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) to pay out one million U.S. dollars to anyone who could demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria. A version of the challenge was first issued in 1964. Over a thousand people applied to take it, but none were successful.

This like you see on TV some seers that charge you 3,99$ a minute to get 100.000$ a week if you just give them a call. Now if they knew how to get rich that fast why would they be advertising on TV instead of sipping drink in Bahama ?

I

 

[Kaon]

If you have imaginery enemies you are considered to be mentally ill and you will probably have lots of unneeded stress on your life.

Yes, I know how incredulous you are about entities your Father and the Redeemer has told you about, but you don't need to be passive aggressive.

I don't care what other humans - who murder, rape, kill, lie, steal and deceive their own - think about me. No human dictates the trajectory of my salvation, and/or my life. So, you and everyone else is free to call me crazy. The Truth is what matters; feelings and emotions lie, and logic is a handicap of the human psyche - always vulnerable to the ferocious reality of the "illogical". I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

The Truth is what matters; feelings and emotions lie, and logic is a handicap

Quite hard to live a normal life without believing in feelings, emotions or logic although I guess it makes pretty interesting forum posts. Well, good luck with that.

 

[Kaon]

Quite hard to live a normal life without believing in feelings, emotions or logic although I guess it makes pretty interesting forum posts. Well, good luck with that.

Did I say I don't believe in feelings? I said they lie.

Incidentally, the feeling that caused you to misread and misinterpret what I clearly said is part of how feelings lie. The compulsion to write the reply you wrote despite what had been explicitly said is another way the feeling lied. I also said logic is a handicap - the same kind of handicap that would cause one to scoff at the reality their Father and Redeemer told them is real (through the word, or exhibition).

I don't base my substance - physical, psychological or spiritual - on other humans that lie, steal, kill, deceive their own, etc.

 

[Cis.jd]

Point is : if you have an ability to do "dark arts" and you are just performing paid tricks for audience then logically you really do not have access to dark arts but rather you are a performing artist.

Aint it sad that you have to explain (and even debate) this? Unless some of the posters here are minors then i'm just blown away at the replies here and how it's coming from adults.

 

[Strong in Him]

All I can say is watch the videos. They have slow motion and stop frame coverage of cards appearing out of thin air or changing to coins... Just watch...

Then, the magician states that he uses the "black arts"?

Some may do - whatever that means. Others don't.
I'm quite sure that the devil can use whatever he wants, or work through whatever - that's if the people involved are not Christians, belong to the Father and have the Holy Spirit in them. If they are, there's no way they would collude with the devil to try to produce sorcery. Even if they don't believe in God, most tricks are illusions and have an explanation. I've even been to workshops where the performer explains how certain things were done and demonstrates the equipment used.

 

[JacksBratt]

Point is : if you have an ability to do "dark arts" and you are just performing paid tricks for audience then logically you really do not have access to dark arts but rather you are a performing artist.

If someone could do something supernatural they could write their own checks.

Or they could have take a cool million from James Randi

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge - Wikipedia

TLDR version ;

The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge was an offer by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) to pay out one million U.S. dollars to anyone who could demonstrate a supernatural or paranormal ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria. A version of the challenge was first issued in 1964. Over a thousand people applied to take it, but none were successful.

This like you see on TV some seers that charge you 3,99$ a minute to get 100.000$ a week if you just give them a call. Now if they knew how to get rich that fast why would they be advertising on TV instead of sipping drink in Bahama ?

I

Most people like this just want fame and fortune... Do you have fame and fortune. If you could do something as simple as walking around and doing magic tricks that ooooh'd and awwwww'd ordinary folk and then go on to huge shows and made more money than you could ever spend.. would you do it?

Now, would you do it if it required the activation of a demonic entity? That's the rub.

They do it for fame and fortune. To be known as the greatest magician ever, or one of them...

Not to rule the world.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

They do it for fame and fortune. To be known as the greatest magician ever, or one of them...

I think you are not really getting this. Of course they want fame and fortune. Most people do.

But if you are a master of dark arts that does card tricks you are only someone doing card tricks.

If you had real dark powers you could do something that would make you even more famous and make you even more money than card tricks.

If you had dark powers why not rob a bank, or conjure demons to fight in arena and net gazabillion credits.
To be remembered as master of demons, or the greatest demon assisted bank robber or the person whose demons took him to the Mars as first person ever.....

Instead we have....people doing card tricks......

applying bit of Occam`s razor here - they do not know dark powers, they do not have access to demons they are just normal artists putting up a good show.

How hard is this to understand ?

 

[JacksBratt]

Did I say I don't believe in feelings? I said they lie.

Incidentally, the feeling that caused you to misread and misinterpret what I clearly said is part of how feelings lie. The compulsion to write the reply you wrote despite what had been explicitly said is another way the feeling lied. I also said logic is a handicap - the same kind of handicap that would cause one to scoff at the reality their Father and Redeemer told them is real (through the word, or exhibition).

I don't base my substance - physical, psychological or physical - on other humans that lie, steal, kill, deceive their own, etc.

I agree, feelings are necessary but, especially in the world today.... if we govern everything on how people "FEEL"... it's going to be a mess.

I just took "Civil" training course. It is to teach us to be "civil". You know... acting professional and treating everyone with due respect.

I think it is a great and fantastic course.

Where they dropped the ball is when they said.. "we used to be happy with Treat others the way you want to be treated... NOW we say Treat others the way THEY WANT to be treated"....

Do you see the subtle difference there? Do you see how impossible that is? Do you not see how Satan has deceived the world to twist a good and solid ideal, and command from Christ, to treat others the way you want to be treated.. to this?

Just think... "I don't like to be told when I made a mistake".... I don't like to be told how to do things at work"... I don't like to be told what time to show up at work"... I don't like to be told that I have to pick up my garbage, cut my lawn, leave handicapped parking for those who need it...

The list is endless and you have just launched down the slippery slope of appeasing everyone.

 

[Kaon]

I agree, feelings are necessary but, especially in the world today.... if we govern everything on how people "FEEL"... it's going to be a mess.

I just took "Civil" training course. It is to teach us to be "civil". You know... acting professional and treating everyone with due respect.

I think it is a great and fantastic course.

Where they dropped the ball is when they said.. "we used to be happy with Treat others the way you want to be treated... NOW we say Treat others the way THEY WANT to be treated"....

Do you see the subtle difference there? Do you see how impossible that is? Do you not see how Satan has deceived the world to twist a good and solid ideal, and command from Christ, to treat others the way you want to be treated.. to this?

Just think... "I don't like to be told when I made a mistake".... I don't like to be told how to do things at work"... I don't like to be told what time to show up at work"... I don't like to be told that I have to pick up my garbage, cut my lawn, leave handicapped parking for those who need it...

The list is endless and you have just launched down the slippery slope of appeasing everyone.

Ultimately, we will get to "do what you want" no matter what. It is already "do what makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone." But, what hurts someone is personal; how could you know what hurts someone and what doesn't? Also, what is to stop someone from doing what they want, and justifying opposition as an illusion, and harmful?

It's all confusion, but par the course.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My question for you both then would be how do we draw a line in the sand on what we deem good fiction and bad fiction when it comes to the occult? Wouldn't this be a good instance of relying on our own understanding of things? Just because the world labels these things fictional, doesn't make them any less real. The world also calls God nothing but a fairy-tale, but again, it doesn't make Him any less real.

Well, sister Tryphena, there are these useful fields called Hermeneutics and Cultural Studies that, when applied from a Christian perspective, can help us think more deeply from several angles about what we're dealing with when any of us may encounter--or engage--what is essentially an occult laden or magically contextualized form of media. When we apply these fields of study, I think that at the end of the day we can evaluate and discern that watching, say, a movie like "The Hobbit" is not anywhere near the same kind of activity as sitting down with friends and playing a "Ouija game" or using "Tarot Cards."

And just to be clear, it's this kind of discernment that allows me to sit down and actually watch "The Hobbit" as a form of fictional entertainment but to refrain, always, from engaging in occult paraphenalia like Ouija boards or Tarot Cards or Crystal Balls or Wiccan Spell Books, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

disturbing. But you're total sure that's what that scripture means? I'm not.

Most people are not going to want to chop off their hand or gouge out their eye. I would also not tell somebody directly to do such a thing privately as their only solution or choice. A person should try to cut sin out of their lives in other ways with the Word of God, and prayer first. They should make every other effort they can to cut out this sin out of their lives. Obviously this would be a last resort for those super extreme rare cases for people who cannot stop no matter what else they have tried with God. If they were to be convinced by Jesus's words to take their own hand, or eye, etc. they should do safely by a doctor who is willing to help them in some third world country. I see it as a last resort when all else fails for a person. I used to think it meant to be exclusively a metaphor alone, but the more I study the words of Jesus and or God's Word, the more I have come to believe them (even when they are uncomfortable to accept). For Jesus said that by one taking their hand, or eye, they could save their whole body from being cast into hell fire. Hard to imagine how a metaphor could save one from entering the kingdom.

Jesus is clearly talking about masturbation in Matthew 5:28-30 because he is talking about lusting after a woman and he talks about how the hand and the eyes are a part of the problem. So if it is metaphor, what is the metaphor for gouging out one's eyes according to the Bible? What is the metaphor for cutting off one's hand according to the Bible? They each have to mean something.

You also have to make a metaphor out of masturbation in this passage, as well. For the hand, and the eye are clearly involved in lusting after a woman (i.e. masturbation).

Sure, one can make a broad brush stroke metaphor with this passage. One could say that it is talking about taking extreme measures of cutting of sin in one's life, but then the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew 19 about how a person made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven would be useless (and it would not be a cross reference or confirmation of Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus did not say it was wrong for a person to make themselves eunuchs to do so for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. By Jesus talking about such people and not expressing his disapproval, this means it not necessarily wrong for one to do so. Granted, I think most people would find other ways to put away the sin of lusting after a woman like: Not going to areas where scantily clad women are at (like international airports in the South), or cutting off their internet access, and they would spend every spare time in focusing on memorizing Scripture verses like James, the epistles of John, the sermon on the Mount, Matthew 25, Luke 10:25-28, etc.

You have to remember, that GOD asked Abraham to take the life of his own son. That is pretty radical and extreme (like almost chopping off one's hand or gouging out one's eye). Yes, Abraham knew that GOD was going to resurrect his son (according to Hebrews 11:17-19). Yes, GOD stopped Abraham. But the point here is that Abraham did not know that Abraham was going to be stopped by GOD. He was going to go through with sacrificing his son Isaac. That is the GOD we serve. Radical. Extreme. We are called to offer our bodies as a willing sacrifice unto GOD in Romans 12:1. This is sure enough a metaphor for offering our whole lives up to GOD in dedication to Him and putting away any sin or sinful things out of our lives (like worldly sinful movies, books, comics, music, role playing games, video games, etc.).

1 John 2:15-17 says,

15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17).

 

[JacksBratt]

I think you are not really getting this. Of course they want fame and fortune. Most people do.

But if you are a master of dark arts that does card tricks you are only someone doing card tricks.

If you had real dark powers you could do something that would make you even more famous and make you even more money than card tricks.

If you had dark powers why not rob a bank, or conjure demons to fight in arena and net gazabillion credits.
To be remembered as master of demons, or the greatest demon assisted bank robber or the person whose demons took him to the Mars as first person ever.....

Instead we have....people doing card tricks......

applying bit of Occam`s razor here - they do not know dark powers, they do not have access to demons they are just normal artists putting up a good show.

How hard is this to understand ?

That's your opinion. Maybe you would do that. Maybe the deal is that they "sell their soul" for fame and fortune.

It's not a secret that performers have been linked to demonic help throughout our life.. AC/DC, KISS, Ozzy, Black Sabbath..... the list goes on. Even Katie Perry admitted that she tried for fame in the Christian rock scene but, even though her father is a pastor... she admittedly sold her soul do the devil for the fame she has..

But, you.... maybe you would want to control more.. But, maybe your soul is only good enough to buy fame and fortune, in Satan's currency...

 

[Newtheran]

I think you are not really getting this. Of course they want fame and fortune. Most people do.

But if you are a master of dark arts that does card tricks you are only someone doing card tricks.

If you had real dark powers you could do something that would make you even more famous and make you even more money than card tricks.

If you had dark powers why not rob a bank, or conjure demons to fight in arena and net gazabillion credits.
To be remembered as master of demons, or the greatest demon assisted bank robber or the person whose demons took him to the Mars as first person ever.....

Instead we have....people doing card tricks......

applying bit of Occam`s razor here - they do not know dark powers, they do not have access to demons they are just normal artists putting up a good show.

How hard is this to understand ?

While I typically agree with Jonathan on absolutely nothing, I think it is pretty clear that the actual sorcery discussed in the Bible is something beyond slight of hand card tricks.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

It's not a secret that performers have been linked to demonic help throughout our life.. AC/DC, KISS, Ozzy, Black Sabbath..... the list goes on. Even Katie Perry admitted that she tried for fame in the Christian rock scene but, even though her father is a pastor... she admittedly sold her soul do the devil for the fame she has..

But, you.... maybe you would want to control more.. But, maybe your soul is only good enough to buy fame and fortune, in Satan's currency...

This is total nonsense, but really fits these forums. Do keep on I will read em in few days when I get back to work. I draw a line at reading these and not getting paid.

 

[devin553344]

Most people are not going to want to chop off their hand or gouge out their eye. But Jesus said that by one doing so, they could save their whole body from being cast into hell fire. Hard to imagine how a metaphor could save one from entering the kingdom.

Jesus is clearly talking about masturbation in Matthew 5:28-30 because he is talking about lusting after a woman and he talks about how the hand and the eyes are a problem. So if it is metaphor, what is the metaphor for gouging out one's eyes according to the Bible? What is the metaphor for cutting off one's hand according to the Bible? They each have to mean something.

Sure, one can make a broad brush stroke metaphor with this passage. One could say that it is talking about taking extreme measures of cutting of sin in one's life, but then the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew 19 about how a person made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven would be useless (and it would not be a cross reference or confirmation of Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus did not say it was wrong for a person to make themselves eunuchs to do so for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. By Jesus talking about such people and not expressing his disapproval, this means it not necessarily wrong for one to do so. Granted, I think most people would find other ways to put away the sin of lusting after a woman like: Not going to areas where scantily clad women are at (like international airports in the South), or cutting off their internet access, and they would spend every spare time in focusing on memorizing Scripture verses like James, the epistles of John, the sermon on the Mount, Matthew 25, Luke 10:25-28, etc. You have to remember, that GOD asked Abraham to take the life of his own son. That is pretty radical and extreme (like almost chopping off one's hand or gouging out one's eye). Yes, Abraham knew that GOD was going to resurrect his son (according to Hebrews 11:17-19). Yes, GOD stopped Abraham. But the point here is that Abraham did not know that Abraham was going to be stopped by GOD. He was going to go through with sacrificing his son Isaac. That is the GOD we serve. Radical. Extreme. We are called to offer our bodies as a willing sacrifice unto GOD in Romans 12:1. This is sure enough a metaphor for offering our whole lives up to GOD in dedication to Him and putting away any sin or sinful things out of our lives (like worldly sinful movies, books, comics, music, role playing games, video games, etc.).

1 John 2:15-17 says,

15 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:15-17).

I can't but help to think you missed the point of God creating humans with sexual drive to continue the species. That was a good thing God did. You make it evil somehow.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I can't but help to think you missed the point of God creating humans with sexual drive to continue the species. That was a good thing God did. You make it evil somehow.

Sexual drive is only safe within the bounds of marriage and or with their partner (in whom they are married with). Looking at others besides one's own married partner is a violation of God's laws and it was never intended for us to lust after others outside of marriage.

"But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (1 Corinthians 7:9).

 

[devin553344]

Sexual drive is only safe within the bounds of marriage and or with their partner (in whom they are married with). Looking at others besides one's own married partner is a violation of God's laws and it was never intended for us to lust after others outside of marriage.

"But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (1 Corinthians 7:9).

I totally agree with the marriage part of that statement. You say safe, what danger is there? God's judgment? And he created you with sexual desires. And now he will judge you for what he created in you?