Why an eternal hell? (2)

[dollarsbill]

Doesn't matter who will do the tormenting. The question is how it follows that just because you're omniscient, you're justified in torturing anybody forever.

I'm not omniscient. God is. He is also omnipotent. You might want to look up the definition of omnipotent.

 

[dollarsbill]

I don't see how you can base such an important doctrine on your interpretation of TWO verses, especially when that doctrine is incompatible with the concept of God's omnipotence and righteous judgment. If you hadn't been taught earlier that hell meant endless torment, there's no possible way you would've concluded that it is, based on scripture alone. Because if you're going to interpret the bible that way you might as well conclude that we must name all the animals.

There are many more that just 2.

 

[createdtoworship]

Nevertheless, would you experience it any differently? Wouldn't it be endless torture to you?

no, you have to think out of the box. There is no reference to time at all, you would actually never describe Hell as endless, just eternal. In order for there to be an end, implies time, so Hell cannot be endless torment. It is simply beyond the time domain, in the eternal estate.

 

[FredVB]

There are many more that just 2.

There are many verses mentioning hell, and with Christ having done so. There might be two that are thought as being definite about that being eternal, but that does not contradict other passages on coming judgment and hell. Only the insistence that death must mean what the the unbelieving world understands about death and not the separation of the spirit from the body will contradict that, but death in scripture does not contradict other scripture it also means the separation of the nonphysical self from the old body.

I would only see that it would continue through time, I do not see why not, with Rev 20:10 showing there will be torment day and night forever.

 

[holo]

I'm not omniscient. God is. He is also omnipotent. You might want to look up the definition of omnipotent.

That doesn't remotely answer my question. I'll ask again: how does it follow that just because you're omniscient, you're justified in torturing anybody forever?

 

[holo]

There are many more that just 2.

Which were those again?

 

[holo]

no, you have to think out of the box. There is no reference to time at all, you would actually never describe Hell as endless, just eternal. In order for there to be an end, implies time, so Hell cannot be endless torment. It is simply beyond the time domain, in the eternal estate.

Would you experience it differently than everlasting time? How would you manage that? By thinking outside the box?

 

[dollarsbill]

That doesn't remotely answer my question. I'll ask again: how does it follow that just because you're omniscient, you're justified in torturing anybody forever?

It does indeed. God is omniscient and omnipotent. You will not overrule Him. Pretty simple.

 

[dollarsbill]

Which were those again?

Already stated several. But I will certainly accomodate your again if you insist.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB)
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

 

[createdtoworship]

Would you experience it differently than everlasting time? How would you manage that? By thinking outside the box?

no thats a contradiction in terms, everlasting and time are mutually exclusive. That would be like a round triangle. Or a square circle.

 

[holo]

It does indeed. God is omniscient and omnipotent. You will not overrule Him. Pretty simple.

You're still not answering my question. How does it follow, or how is it reasonable, that if you know everything, you're justified in torturing someone?

 

[holo]

Already stated several. But I will certainly accomodate your again if you insist.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB)
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

The original text says Gehenna, not hell. Gehenna has been translated into hell in many bibles, but Jesus said Gehenna, which is/was a garbage dump outside of the city. If He had meant hell, He would've said hell. The jews probably knew the concept of hell from the pagan religions around them. But "hell" didn't exist in the jewish religion.

 

[holo]

no thats a contradiction in terms, everlasting and time are mutually exclusive. That would be like a round triangle. Or a square circle.

OK. But again, would you experience it any differently if it was everlasting time or "outside of time?"

Does it make any difference for those who are in hell right now, like most of the jews who were killed in the death camps?

 

[holo]

The idea of eternal torment is so thinly supported in the scriptures, but people hang on to that doctrine for dear life. Why? Nobody will be torturer forever, God will judge FAIRLY. That's GOOD NEWS! It makes me want to preach the gospel, with a boldness I never had when I had to tell people that yeah, God loves you, but He also wants to torture you endlessly. No wonder I felt ashamed of the gospel, having to portray an infinitely unfair God who's not even able to save most of His creation because of one single sin in the history of man.

Now I LOVE God. Now I come to Him because He is GOOD, not because He'll torture me forever if I don't. Now I get to share the gospel boldly and freely and happily. Now I get to see all the good reasons for seeking a life with the Lord.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK. But again, would you experience it any differently if it was everlasting time or "outside of time?"

Does it make any difference for those who are in hell right now, like most of the jews who were killed in the death camps?

yes, one would be outside the limits of time, there is no boredom or feelings associated with time at all.

 

[dollarsbill]

You're still not answering my question. How does it follow, or how is it reasonable, that if you know everything, you're justified in torturing someone?

I am not omnipotent or omniscient, but God is.

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

 

[dollarsbill]

The original text says Gehenna, not hell. Gehenna has been translated into hell in many bibles, but Jesus said Gehenna, which is/was a garbage dump outside of the city. If He had meant hell, He would've said hell. The jews probably knew the concept of hell from the pagan religions around them. But "hell" didn't exist in the jewish religion.

It's about punishment in the fire my friend.

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
22 But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:22 (ASV)
22 ; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (AMP)
22 , and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (BBE)
22 ; and whoever says, You foolish one, will be in danger of the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (MontgomeryNT)
22 , while he who curses his brother shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.

Matthew 5:22 (Darby)
22 ; but whosoever shall say, Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (ESV)
22 ; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (GW)
22 Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hellfire.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB)
22 "; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NIV)
22 But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NLT)
22 And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NRSV)
22 ; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (TLB)
22 And if you curse him, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (WesleyNT)
22 ; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be liable to hell-fire.

Matthew 5:22 (WEY)
22 ; and that whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.

Matthew 5:22 (YLT)
22 , and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

 

[dollarsbill]

The idea of eternal torment is so thinly supported in the scriptures, but people hang on to that doctrine for dear life. Why? Nobody will be torturer forever, God will judge FAIRLY. That's GOOD NEWS! It makes me want to preach the gospel, with a boldness I never had when I had to tell people that yeah, God loves you, but He also wants to torture you endlessly. No wonder I felt ashamed of the gospel, having to portray an infinitely unfair God who's not even able to save most of His creation because of one single sin in the history of man.

Now I LOVE God. Now I come to Him because He is GOOD, not because He'll torture me forever if I don't. Now I get to share the gospel boldly and freely and happily. Now I get to see all the good reasons for seeking a life with the Lord.

I don't know of even one English Bible that doesn't mention the 'eternal fire'. Punishment in fire is a clear NT doctrine.

 

[holo]

yes, one would be outside the limits of time, there is no boredom or feelings associated with time at all.

So in effect, not everlasting torture after all? It won't end, but it's still not everlasting? I don't get it. I don't see how it would make a difference to anybody in there.

 

[holo]

I am not omnipotent or omniscient, but God is.

Daniel 4:35 (NASB)
35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

You're still not answering my question. I'm not asking whether or not God is almighty, or if He can torture people if He chooses to. I'm asking how does it follow that if you're omnipotent and omniscious, that you're justified in torturing somebody infinitely?

The reason I'm asking is because you seem to argue that the reason God can/will/wants to torment people eternally is because He is omnipotent.