Who Created God?

[paperneck]

we say him or he because we haven't another word. we might say "it" but it sounds like blasphemy.

 

[Buttermilk]

There's a commandment that addresses that.

Which one?

 

[CVL]

Which one?

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

[Buttermilk]

How is refering to God as "He" making him an "idol" (of Himself)?

 

[CVL]

How is refering to God as "He" making him an "idol" (of Himself)?

hmm, that's funny. I always misinterpreted that. I always took it as - never idolize or objectify God.

 

[Brendan1000]

I hope nobody minds if I inteject here - I'm very new to this forum but I'm actually from a mathematical background and I can relate to the sort of dilemma posed here. I understand both sides of the argument and I know that some people work on different levels than other.

In an attempt to appeal to Buttermilk's search for something more physical or relating perhaps to the universe, I would highly recommend the arguments put forward by Thomas Aquinas (for example, the argument of the Unmoved Mover).

In the most physical sense, people observe things in time and space around them. Physicists believe that the universe started with a Big Bang but I have often asked myself "who started this Big Bang?" This notion that something can't come from nothing is one key idea that helps me to look for more answers.

 

[Buttermilk]

Welcome Brendan1000

Thanks for your response.

To continue your "argument", if you say God started the "Big Bang", the question still is who/what created/started God who in turn stated the "Big Bang"?

 

[Brendan1000]

Let's put it this way - in all there are only two choices about the start of the universe.

1. It had a starting point - it came from nothing.

2. It is an infinite recurrence. Either sometime timless / eternal started it or the universe is in infinite progression of things in a chain that can never be linked back to a starting point.

It's hard to argue against your point because you don't really give any plausable alternative and I find by the very nature of this problem there is no solution that makes intuitive sense on the most fundamental level but one of them has to be right. I find it more plausable that the universe didn't come from nothing.

 

[CVL]

The Universe up until now hasn't required a starting point, because "before" the Big Bang neither physics nor time "existed". A starting point implies a before and after. There was no before. God isn't constrained by physics or time though.

Maybe the Universe is the only thing that's measureable and finite.

 

[Brendan1000]

Yeah, that's a really good point too. I was sort of thinking that partially when I was talking about an infinite recurrence of things but didn't say it exactly.

The problem people have with thinking about this is analogous to a 2-dimensional figure attempting to jump off of their plane.

 

[Jimmy15]

Maybe the reason you're not satisfied with all these long and thought out answers, is because God is waiting on you to come to realization yourself. You're continuously rejecting him throughout this whole thread, refusing the answers, and refusing faith itself.

You come here to ask the biggest question of all, but none of the answers are good enough. Why not? What is preventing Jesus from getting through to you?

Do you hold anger so strongly that you refuse to acknowledge the good he's done for you? It seems by a post that I read, you did used to believe in God, but you've lost your faith. If you could just give us the gist of what happened, we could give you better answers, I'm sure.

To understand why you reject God is to bring us one step closer to helping you, and that's all we want to do. You say a lot that you shouldn't have come here again, when that's not true. You take people's reactions as pushing you away, when really they (and now me) want to help you.

 

[suzybeezy]

Blind faith is worse than no faith - I think I'll pass on that one thanks.

I've read this thread and would love to find the answer you're looking for. But I don't think it can be answered the way you want. I personally believe God has always been based on what I read in the Bible and how He has become a reality in my own life. Faith is not blind its a spiritual awakening. Faith is knowing and believing what cannot be seen. To assume Christians have blind faith asumes we don't have reason.

Have you ever been skydiving? If so, you understand faith. You hope that the parachute will open, when it's time for it to open. Even though you've prepped and double-checked the chute, you don't know for sure that it will open. Faith is a decision to trust the parachute. Blind faith is when you have been given no rational or tangible reason to trust, in other words, blind faith is believing that something is true REGARDLESS of the evidence presented to you.

People think that Christianity is simply a matter of faith, and is wholly incompatible with science, history, logic, or common sense. Paul told the church at Thessalonica to "prove all things" and "hold fast to that which is good." (I Thessalonians 5:21) In other words, don't just believe things blindly. God expects people to think, which is why He gave people a brain. The Bible tells us that the evidence for our faith is all around us and that we have no excuse before God for not acknowledging it.

There are many scripture in the Bible that support that God existed before time (which he created):

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

2 Timothy 1:9 This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time

Titus 1:2 The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time

Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

I realize scriptural proof isn't what you are looking for, but as Christian I believe: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

May the Lord bless you as you search for your answers.

 

[Buttermilk]

Maybe the reason you're not satisfied with all these long and thought out answers, is because God is waiting on you to come to realization yourself.

To come to realisation I need satisfactory answers to my questions

You're continuously rejecting him throughout this whole thread,

I am not

refusing the answers,

Just because I don't agree with an answer does not mean I am refusing the answer.

and refusing faith itself.

Please explain to me how I am refusing faith (and how in your eyes I can rectify that)

You come here to ask the biggest question of all, but none of the answers are good enough. Why not?

Again, just because I don't agree with the answers does not mean to say the answers are not good enough, or don't raise other questions.

What is preventing Jesus from getting through to you?

I don't know, why don't you ask Him and then tell me the answer.

Do you hold anger so strongly

What gives you that idea?

that you refuse to acknowledge the good he's done for you?

What has He done, what am I refusing to acknowledge?

It seems by a post that I read, you did used to believe in God, but you've lost your faith. If you could just give us the gist of what happened, we could give you better answers, I'm sure.

As I said on numerous occassions before I do not wish to discuss it - suffice to say it has nothing in particular to do with the questions I am now asking. The questions have alway been there, but supressed - now they have been released (albeit perhaps by recent events, but these events did not initiate these particular questions), and I need answers that are logical to make any sense of it all.

To understand why you reject God is to bring us one step closer to helping you, and that's all we want to do.

How can I reject something I am not even sure is there in the first place? What I am doing is starting with the fundamentals. Once the fundamental questions have been answered to my satisfaction (in my mind), then I can move on, one way or the other.

You say a lot that you shouldn't have come here again, when that's not true. You take people's reactions as pushing you away, when really they (and now me) want to help you.

Some here do genuinely want to try and help, but others just want to chase people like myself away - that is fundamental fact sadly.

 

[Buttermilk]

I've read this thread and would love to find the answer you're looking for.................May the Lord bless you as you search for your answers.

Hi Suzy

M comment about blind faith was in response to a particular post - it was not a generalised sweeping comment.

There are however those who do have blind faith.

 

[paperneck]

i think the point here many may be trying to make is that your question doesn't have an answer. simply put the answer you're asking is too big.

hypothetically let us say god does not exist. Suppose the big bang happened simply because it happened and there was nothing behind it but itself. If this is the case you'll still never be given an answer that will satisfy your question because the orgin is too complicated to trace with telescopes or microscopes. the event is too grand and to far behind us to ever fully understand what happened.


i can relate with why you want to understand it. but god or no god we won't find an answer to the exact mechanics of creation.

this is why many christians assume that the story of adam and eve is a classic example of parable, or more accuratly myth(in the true meaning of the word that is an untrue story given given to explain an everlasting truth) we can't understand the exact orgin of our creation, but we know what is implied and expressed directly in the fact that we were created. we know there is love there, and likewise we know there is forgiveness.


i'm not sure if this is helpful, but i'm presenting a case for you to find another question to ask. looking to see if god was around billions seems like an impractical search, and i can't see how it pretains to you as much as you are living now. ought you to see if god is here with you now?

 

[suzybeezy]

Hi Suzy

M comment about blind faith was in response to a particular post - it was not a generalised sweeping comment.

There are however those who do have blind faith.

think the point here many may be trying to make is that your question doesn't have an answer. simply put the answer you're asking is too big.

Hi Buttermilk, when I read this thread truly wanted to come up with an answer that could help. I focused on the faith response because it is by faith that I believe what I've learned thru reading the Bible along with the reality of God's presence in my life that God was a work before the beginning of time. Without faith, its almost impossible to believe that God has always been.

I think the question itself is flawed in that "Who Created God" assumes there's a beginning like everything else. But God created time. He's not bound by beginning and end. Its like asking What does Blue smell like? The question can't be answered. God is not of this realm and is not held to the same time standards that every other living being is. To believe that requires faith and as humans faith doesn't seem logical. It is part of human nature to always doubt and question. To understand God we have to forfeit our limited understanding of the world. We are only present in the now. We can not move back in time... and we can't move forward in time. God is not stationary in time like we are... he is outside of time and at every point in time. This will never be proven scientifically. You have to accept it with faith.

I hope that helps some. I'll be praying for you and if you ever need someone to talk to, please know that I am here.

 

[SharonL]

Lil Lamb gave you Bible references - there is no other proof - if after Bible proof and after over 13,000 posts - you are not choosing to believe and no one will convince you - this is your choice.

 

[Buttermilk]

Lil Lamb gave you Bible references - there is no other proof -

That is not proof that is a selection of words from a book

if after Bible proof and after over 13,000 posts

Have you read each of 13000 posts - no I thought not (and you would be unable to anyway since many of them are actually in the staff forums!!!) - let me sumarise for you - they are not all on this particular topic!!!

- you are not choosing to believe and no one will convince you - this is your choice.

Hmm so its a choice I need to make - others may disagree with you.

Seeing as you actually don't know anything about me or what led me to ask this particular question, please do not make surmised assumptions about me - thank you!!!

 

[SharonL]

I'm an atheist agnostic as I still leave the possibility of God open. But I seriously doubt a God exists.

And this whole thing about faith... People say you must welcome Christ into your life. And you can feel his presence and all that stuff. Hasn't anyone thought about if it's all just a psychological effect? Cause and effect? That sort of thing.

Are you willing to take that chance - one second in eternity and it's too late to say oooooppps - my mistake.

Look at your hands, your eyes, your body - how it all works, look at the trees, they know when to grow and when to rest, look at the birds feeding their young - how do they know what to feed them or how to take care of them - look at a seed - how does it bring forth food - how can all this be without a supreme maker - how do you explain where we come from, how the earth is made.

We walk in the fields around my house - there are little kildeer birds - they lay their eggs on the ground - the birds see us coming - they run off and pretend like they have a broken wing to draw you away from their nest - it is amazing to watch - I always walk around and think - how can anyone not believe in God when you see all this around you.

 

[Buttermilk]

Look at your hands, your eyes, your body - how it all works, look at the trees, they know when to grow and when to rest, look at the birds feeding their young - how do they know what to feed them or how to take care of them - look at a seed - how does it bring forth food - how can all this be without a supreme maker - how do you explain where we come from, how the earth is made.

Chemistry, Biology and Physics.