Who Changed Shabbat?

[HARK!]

I am using the lunar month calendar which the Hebrews used. Your the one using the papal, solar, Gregorian calendar.

You ignore the new moon so your day count is incorrect.

Exodus 16:1
Then they set out from Elim, and all the congregation of the sons of Israel came to the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departure from the land of Egypt.

Israel used the moon to determine the first day of the month!

That fifteenth day of the second month has nothing to do with any solar, papal calendar.

Isaiah 66:23
"And it shall be from NEW MOON to NEW MOON and from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will
come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.

Does that verse say; NEW MOON to NEW MOON?

My point is that the seventh day Shabbat cycle is independent of the New Year, and the New Moon.

John Wesley- The Works of the Rev. John Wesley "But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other." (Wesley was a Methodist)

"The Sabbath instituted in the beginning and confirmed again and again by Moses and the Prophets, has never been abrogated. A part of the moral law, not a part or tittle of its sanctity has been taken away."- New York Herald 1874, on the Methodist Episcopal Bishops Pastoral 1874.

Another Methodist, Dwight L. Moody- Weighed and Wanting, The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeted the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." - Professor James C. Moffat, DD., Professor of Church History at Princeton.; from The Church in Scotland, pp140.

 

[Bob S]

The fact is Hark they were all wrong. They were honest sincere men that had it wrong. Gentile nations were never given the ten commandments. When they converted to Christianity the new covenant didn't demand a bunch of ritual laws like the Sabbath Paul called the Galatians foolish for allowing the Jews to persuade them to keep the defunct laws of Torah. Read 2Cor3:6-11 and Eph 2:11-15 Jesus set aside Torah according to Eph and Matt 5:17 Jesus said He came to bring the law to closure. Yes, those great men had it wrong. We have a choice, follow great men, follow scripture or don't follow anything.

 

[klutedavid]

My point is that the seventh day Shabbat cycle is independent of the New Year, and the New Moon.

Continuous weekly cycles only occur on a solar calendar. Lunar calendars do not have continuous weekly cycles.

The Hebrews were following a lunar calendar and a lunar calendar is not in sequence with a papal solar calendar.

Lunar and solar calendars have a different number of days per year.

Pentecost for example is timed according to the moon not the solar cycles.

Pentecost will always occur on the exact same date on a lunar calendar but that is not the case on the papal calendar.

1 Samuel 20:27
It came about the next day, the second day of the new moon, that David’s place was empty.

1 Samuel 20:34
Then Jonathan arose from the table in fierce anger, and did not eat food on the second day of the new moon.

The day count was always from the new moon.

 

[HARK!]

Continuous weekly cycles only occur on a solar calendar.

I'll say it again, the weekly cycle is independent of a solar calendar. Otherwise the fourth of July would fall on the same day of the week every year. Even a 24 hour day is independent of the Earth's rotation around the sun

1 Year = 365.242199 Days

365.242199 / 7 = 52.177457

The Hebrews were following a lunar calendar and a lunar calendar is not in sequence with a papal solar calendar.

Neither is lunation evenly divisible by seven; but the issue is compounded in that the duration of the cycle is variable, due to the moon's elliptical orbit. Yet another factor with the Hebrew new moon sighting, is that atmospheric conditions compounded by the moon's elliptical orbit, can vary a sighting by a few days.

The 7 day cycle is independent of the lunar cycle.

Lunar and solar calendars have a different number of days per year.

Nope!

The time that it takes for the Earth to rotate around the Sun is independent of how many times the Earth revolves on its' axis, and independent of how many times the moon revolves around the Earth. The timing for each can be compared with the timing of the others; but the timing of each, is independent of the timings of the others.

Pentecost will always occur on the exact same date on a lunar calendar but that is not the case on the papal calendar.

Pentecost is dependent on the solar year, the lunar month, and the seven day cycle

That does not mean that anything that Pentecost is dependent on, is dependent on anything else that Pentecost is dependent on.

The day count was always from the new moon.

You need to reread Genesis. The moon wasn't even created until the fourth day.

 

[HARK!]

Dr. Hefele, Concilliengesch 3, 512, sec. 362 about the Council of Liftinae, Belgium AD 745 (attended by Boniface)- "The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea"

Dr. Hefele, Concilliengesch 4, 346-352, sec 478 quoting Pope Nicholas I answer to a question from Bogaris the prince of Bulgaria- "One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath" /On the subject of the same letter- "The head of the Greek Church , offended at the interference of the papacy, declared the Pope ex-communicated"- Truth Triumphant pp 232

"They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner...These things Margaret abolished" - A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation, speaking of Queen Margaret's (a Catholic) decree.

 

[Cribstyl]

Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day

Jorge, how do you reconcile that the sun and moon was made on the 4th day, to establish the day from the night, years, weeks, hours,(and 24hrs days as we know it? )

 

[BobRyan]

Continuous weekly cycles only occur on a solar calendar. Lunar calendars do not have continuous weekly cycles.

The Hebrews were following a lunar calendar and a lunar calendar is not in sequence with a papal solar calendar.

Lunar and solar calendars have a different number of days per year.

Pentecost for example is timed according to the moon not the solar cycles.
.

1. Not text says the first day of the month - of very month - is also the first day of the week. This is irrefutable.
2. There is no record of 2 day week in scripture where the end of the last week of the month is cut short to start over again with the new moon. This is irrefutable.
3. Nobody the first day of the new month as always being the first day of the week. This is irrefutable.

Jews don't have it.
Catholics don't have it.
Protestants don't have it.

Why even go there??

 

[guevaraj]

Jorge, how do you reconcile that the sun and moon was made on the 4th day, to establish the day from the night, years, weeks, hours,(and 24hrs days as we know it? )

Brother, there is a different verb used on the fourth day that in the later context with Abraham at the end of this post shows that it means prepared (asah) and not create (bara') as in the previous verses.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made (asah) two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made (asah) the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19 NIV)​

The sun already existed from the first day as explained here to decide the days and added was the moon to the sun to prepare (asah) and not create (bara') the sun that already existed from the first day to decide from now on the seasons of the year in addition to the days from the first day.

So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.” Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare (asah) it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared (asah), and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. (Genesis 18:6-8 NIV)​

United in our hope of the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[HARK!]

"During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (AD 1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in hounour of the Virgin Mary."- History of the Sabbath p 672

"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until AD 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." - Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol 1, p 29

Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (AD 1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in hounour of the Virgin Mary."- History of the Sabbath p 672

"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until AD 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." - Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol 1, p 29

Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

The "problems" began between East and West as early as 116-126 AD with Pope Sixtus of Rome regarding Passover, 154 AD with Polycarp (East) and Anicetus (West) argument, Polycrates argument with Victor of Rome in in 196 AD. Regarding the Sabbath, Jews never fast on Shabbat. The Eastern Orthodox, even up to today, do not fast on the Sabbath (other than on Holy Saturday of Passover). The church of Rome made Saturday a fast day. Phillip Schaff, 1864 and 1952 ed, "History of the Church".

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Continuous weekly cycles only occur on a solar calendar. Lunar calendars do not have continuous weekly cycles.

The Hebrews were following a lunar calendar and a lunar calendar is not in sequence with a papal solar calendar.

Lunar and solar calendars have a different number of days per year.

The day count was always from the new moon.

We have been through all this before...the lunar weekly Sabbath has been disproven many times...

 

[klutedavid]

1. Not text says the first day of the month - of very month - is also the first day of the week. This is irrefutable.

The day of the new moon was a day of rest for Israel the same as the Sabbath.

Do you deny that the day of the new moon was a day of rest?

Exodus 23:12
Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest...

The new moon day was a rest day then you worked six days until the next Sabbath day.

Your crowd can have three rest days within one week around the beginning of the month.

2. There is no record of 2 day week in scripture where the end of the last week of the month is cut short to start over again with the new moon. This is irrefutable.

Your in denial of the reality of the day of the new moon being a rest day.

3. Nobody the first day of the new month as always being the first day of the week. This is irrefutable.

Six days you will work then a rest day. The new moon was a rest day so the Sabbath can only occur after six days of work. Your in denial Bob.

Jews don't have it.

Yes, the Jews switched to a Roman solar calendar.

Catholics don't have it.
Protestants don't have it.

Gentiles used the solar calendar so they did not need to switch.

Why even go there??

Because your not following the rule of working six days then resting. You want to have three rest days around the start of the month.

That is lawlessness.

 

[klutedavid]

We have been through all this before...the lunar weekly Sabbath has been disproven many times...

The day of the new moon was a rest day the same as the Sabbath day. Do you also deny the reality of the day of rest during the day of the new moon?

 

[klutedavid]

I'll say it again, the weekly cycle is independent of a solar calendar. Otherwise the fourth of July would fall on the same day of the week every year. Even a 24 hour day is independent of the Earth's rotation around the sun

1 Year = 365.242199 Days

365.242199 / 7 = 52.177457

You are mistaken and you need to do some research.

Synodic months are 29 or 30 days in length, making a lunar year of 12 months about 11 days shorter than a solar year. (wikipedia.lunar.calendar)

Neither is lunation evenly divisible by seven; but the issue is compounded in that the duration of the cycle is variable, due to the moon's elliptical orbit.

Correct Hark. But the Hebrews followed lunar months and each month started on the day of the new moon.

That day of the new moon, the start of the month was a rest day. Will you rest on the day of the new moon or will you work?

Yet another factor with the Hebrew new moon sighting, is that atmospheric conditions compounded by the moon's elliptical orbit, can vary a sighting by a few days.

For the Hebrews the observance of the new moon was not an exact science. Of course there were days when the new moon was not visible to Israel, but that was not a problem for them.

The 7 day cycle is independent of the lunar cycle.

No it's not. You must rest on the day of the new moon according to the law. On the day of the new moon, you work, you sin. Another one who disregards the day of rest.

The time that it takes for the Earth to rotate around the Sun is independent of how many times the Earth revolves on its' axis, and independent of how many times the moon revolves around the Earth. The timing for each can be compared with the timing of the others; but the timing of each, is independent of the timings of the others.

Still the day of the new moon is a day of rest, ignore this fact and you will be confused.

Pentecost is dependent on the solar year, the lunar month, and the seven day cycle

Pentecost was never based on a solar calendar. Pentecost is based on lunar observations.

You need to reread Genesis. The moon wasn't even created until the fourth day.

You may need to reread Genesis.

Genesis 1:14-15
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.

Your problem is that you ignore the new moon and that throws your timing out.

Will you regard the day of the new moon as a rest day or not?

 

[HARK!]

Correct Hark. But the Hebrews followed lunar months and each month started on the day of the new moon.

That day of the new moon, the start of the month was a rest day. Will you rest on the day of the new moon or will you work?

...but that day/month/new moon is sill independent of the seventh day sabbath.


"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." , Dr. Heylyn's- History of the Sabbath Part 2, pp. 73,74, London: 1636

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath." Gieseler's Church History, Vol.1, ch.2, par.30, p.93.

 

[HARK!]

"During the first crusade, Pope Urban II decreed at the council of Clermont (AD 1095) that the Sabbath be set aside in hounour of the Virgin Mary."- History of the Sabbath p 672

"There is much evidence that the Sabbath prevailed in Wales universally until AD 1115, when the first Roman bishop was seated at St. David's. The old Welsh Sabbath-keeping churches did not even then altogether bow the knee to Rome, but fled to their hiding places." - Lewis, Seventh Day Baptists in Europe and America, Vol 1, p 29

Josephus , first century Historian, says : "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clathie, Notes and Queries on China and Japan. (edited by Dennys),Vol.4, Nos. 7,8, p.100.

 

[HARK!]

Your problem is that you ignore the new moon and that throws your timing out.

I don't ignore the new moon; but how would that throw out my timing for the seventh day Shabbat; when the seven day cycle is independent of the moon?


"The first matter concerned a keeping holy of Saturday. It had come to the earth of the archbishop that people in different places of the kingdom had ventured the keeping holy of Saturday. It is strictly forbidden- it is stated- in the Church-Law, for any one to keep or adopt holy-days. outside of those which the pope,archbishop, or bishops appoint." - speaking of the Church Council held at Bergen, Norway in the year 1435, The History of the Norwegian Church under Catholicism, R. Keyser, Vol II, p 488. Oslo: 1858.

"It will surely be far safer to observe the seventh day, according to express commandment of God, than on the authority of mere human conjecture to adopt the first."- Jihn Milton, Sab. Lit. pp 46-54.

"Thus we see Dan. 7 , 25, fulfilled, the little horn changing 'times and laws'. Therefore it appears to me that all who keep the first day for the Sabbath are Pope's Sunday-keepers and God's Sabbath-breakers."- American Elder T.M. Preble, Feb 13 1845.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The day of the new moon was a rest day the same as the Sabbath day. Do you also deny the reality of the day of rest during the day of the new moon?

Rosh Kodesh...but had nothing to do with when Shabbat is or was

 

[klutedavid]

I don't ignore the new moon; but how would that throw out my timing for the seventh day Shabbat; when the seven day cycle is independent of the moon?

Simply because the new moon day of rest will fall in between your Sabbaths. Therefore you will have three rest days in eight days.

The scripture states six days of work then a rest day. The scripture does not say have a new moon day rest then another Sabbath rest day the next day.

Exodus 31:15
For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

We know the new moon day is a day of rest.

Hear this, you who trample the needy, to do away with the humble of the land, saying, “When will the New Moon be over, so that we may sell grain, and Shabbat, that we may open the wheat market...(Amos 8:4-6)

It is beyond doubt that the new moon day was a rest day and yet you want to follow a papal calendar. Ignoring the new moon day of rest.

It is not lawful to do that.

Think it through!

 

[klutedavid]

I don't ignore the new moon; but how would that throw out my timing for the seventh day Shabbat; when the seven day cycle is independent of the moon?

What happens if your resting on Friday because that is the new moon day. Then you also rest on Saturday according to the papal calendar.

You have rested twice in two days when the scripture clearly says; six days of work then a rest day.

You tell me how you can do that?