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Which is easier...?

Which is easier?

  • An evolutionist to sit through Instant Creation 101

  • An instant creationist to sit through Evolution 101

  • Neither


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Naraoia

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There is no legitimate evolution research out there.
Care to show how each of these 1 million + papers are not legitimate? :)

How do you account for all the peer-reviewed articles on Intelligent Design?
Let's see. Since the subject of debate is the existence of a peer-reviewed literature on ID, for the moment we'll disregard the quality of the publications below.

Crick, F.H.C., and Orgel, L.E., Directed Panspermia, Icarus, Volume 19, Pages 341-346, 1973
From the abstract:
Crick&Orgel1973 said:
We conclude that it is possible that life reached the earth in this way, but that the scientific evidence is inadequate at the present time to say anything about the probability. We draw attention to the kinds of evidence that might throw additional light on the topic.
Doesn't look like an article arguing for ID ...

At least, I can't for the life of me see how planting life on a planet equals intelligent design.

Another quote, from the body of the paper this time:
Crick&Orgel1973 said:
It has also been argued that “infective” theories of the origins of terrestrial life should be rejected because they do no more than transfer the problem of origins to another planet. This view is mistaken; the historical facts are important in their own right. For all we know there may be other types of planet on which the origin of life ab initio is greatly more probable than on our own. For example, such a planet may possess a mineral, or compound, of crucial catalytic importance, which is rare on Earth.
I was right. Crick and Orgel do NOT argue for intelligent design: they argue that other planets might be more conducive to the spontaneous appearance of life.

Further, they propose that the organisms sent to seed the earth were microbes...
Crick&Orgel1973 said:
Here we wish to examine a very specific form of Directed Panspermia. Could life have started on Earth as a result of infection by microorganisms sent here deliberately by a technological society on another planet, by means of a special long-range unmanned spaceship?
....packed up by an evolved sender.
Crick&Orgel1973 said:
ln summary, there is adequate time for technological society to have evolved twice in succession. The places in the galaxy wltere life could start, if seeded, are probably very numerous. We can foresee that we ourselves will be able to construct rockets with sufficient range, delivery ability, and surviving payload if microorganisms are used. Thus the idea of Directed Panspermia cannot at the moment be rejected by any simple argument.
Where is ID in this, again?

(Yet another example of why we should always check Agon's sources!)

Axe, D.D., Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds, Journal of Molecular Biology, Volume 341, Issue 5, Pages 1295-1315, Aug 2004
Fair enough, though the abstract doesn't even mention ID. (Can you provide a quote from the paper itself that does?)

Behe, M.J., and Snoke, D.W., Simulating Evolution By Gene Duplication of Protein Features that Require Multiple Amino Acid Residues, Protein Science, Volume 13, Number 10, Pages 2651-2664, Oct 2004
Yeah, heard of that. Read it, even. Well, it is peer-reviewed and it is sort of about ID, so I'll give you that.

"Dynamical Genetics" appears to be a book, not a peer-reviewed publication.

Couvreur, P., and Vauthier, C., Nanotechnology; Intelligent Design to Treat Complex Diseases, Pharmaceutical Research, Volume 23, Number 7, Jul 2006
... has nothing to do with evolution: the intelligent design in question appears to be that of targeted drug delivery mechanisms. Its key words, from the link: autoimmune disease - cancer - drug targeting - infections - industrial development - liposome - metabolic disease - nanoparticle - vaccine - nanotechnology

Agon, where does the review talk about ID, the alternative to evolution?

Always check Agon's sources. It's starting to sound like a mantra.

Marks, R.J., and Dembski, W.A., Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success, Systems Man and Cybernetics: Part A Systems and Humans, IEEE Transactions, Volume 39, Issue 5, Pages 1051-1061, Sep 2009
... seems to be about ways to make an evolutionary search find a given target (remember? evolution doesn't search for pre-determined targets). Does it even present an argument for ID? (If yes, can you quote? You love quoting, don't you?) It's certainly not in a biological journal, which makes me wonder.

In summary:

- Two of your references definitely have nothing to do with ID.

- Four of them may have something to do with it; one of those is a book contribution, not a peer-reviewed article.

That leaves three articles that MAY represent a peer-reviewed literature for ID?

OK, I'll grant you that it exists. Three papers, at least one of which, Behe and Snoke 2004, I know to be rubbished by a pretty eminent expert on the subject (what were the reactions to the others?)

And that warrants class time? Maybe an off-hand mention, certainly not equal standing.

Darwinism has never made a successful experiment or measurement.
Evolution =/= Darwinism, and when would you like to start debunking those million or so articles again?

What country do you live in?

I live in the United States where it is illegal to teach any evidence that contradicts evolution in public school.

Really? Can you produce the legal texts supporting that claim?
That.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Care to show how each of these 1 million + papers are not legitimate? :)
Sure.

"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, The Illustrated London News, April 19th 1930

"If 50 million people believe a fallacy it is still a fallacy." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1970

Humans like us were in Mexico prior to 200,000 B.C. Therefore they cannot possibly have evolved in Kenya in 195,000 B.C.

Let's see. Since the subject of debate is the existence of a peer-reviewed literature on ID, for the moment we'll disregard the quality of the publications below.
An attack on the quality of the publications is an ad hominem fallacy.

Of course you attack the quality because they disagree with you.

From the abstract:

Doesn't look like an article arguing for ID ...

At least, I can't for the life of me see how planting life on a planet equals intelligent design.
You must have missed the part where it said intelligent beings directed a certain design called panspermia.

Another quote, from the body of the paper this time:

I was right. Crick and Orgel do NOT argue for intelligent design: they argue that other planets might be more conducive to the spontaneous appearance of life.
Do you know what "directed" means?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/directed

Pronunciation: \də-ˈrek-təd, dī-\
Function: adjective
Date: 1891
1 : subject to supervision or regulation

Further, they propose that the organisms sent to seed the earth were microbes...

....packed up by an evolved sender.

Where is ID in this, again?
Well you must have missed the part where it said intelligent beings directed a certain design called panspermia.

... has nothing to do with evolution
I agree scientific reality has nothing to do with evolution.

the intelligent design in question appears to be that of targeted drug delivery mechanisms. Its key words, from the link: autoimmune disease - cancer - drug targeting - infections - industrial development - liposome - metabolic disease - nanoparticle - vaccine - nanotechnology

Agon, where does the review talk about ID, the alternative to evolution?
It talks about "intelligent design" which you believe is unscientific because you disagree with it and have faith it is wrong.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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It is illegal to teach anything other than evolution in biology class because Darwinists have a totalitarian monopoly in our government education system. Identical to Nazi Germany.
That gave me a good, rich belly laugh. Thank you!

What's next? The "Galilean conspiracy" pushing the totalitarian concept of heliocentrism down the throats of poor, godly geocentrists?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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What's next? The "Galilean conspiracy" pushing the totalitarian concept of heliocentrism down the throats of poor, godly geocentrists?
That gave me a good, rich belly laugh. Thank you!

The same pseudoscientists who taught you that Galileo discovered heliocentrism also claim that humans like us didn't exist prior to 195,000 B.C.

"And he [Methuselah] was moreover with the angels of God these six jubilees of years, and they showed him everything which is on the earth and in the heavens, the rule of the sun, and he wrote down everything." -- Jubilees 4:21-22

"... then yonder sun strings these worlds to himself on a thread. Now that thread is the same as the [solar] wind; and that wind is the same as this Vikarnî: thus when he lays down the latter, then yonder sun strings to himself these worlds on a thread." -- Yajnavalkya, gymnosophist, Satapatha Brahmana, 1st millenium B.C.

"Most people -- all, in fact, who regard the whole heaven as finite -- say it [the Earth] lies at the centre. But the Italian philosophers known as Pythagoreans take the contrary view. At the centre, they say, is fire, and the earth is one of the [wandering] stars, creating night and day by its circular motion about the centre." -- Aristotle, philosopher, On The Heavens, Book II, 350 B.C.

"Does the earth move like the sun, moon, and five planets, which for their motions he calls organs or instruments of time? Or is the earth fixed to the axis of the universe; yet not so built as to remain immovable, but to turn and wheel about, as Aristarchus and Seleucus have shown since; Aristarchus only supposing it, Seleucus positively asserting it? Theophrastus writes how that Plato, when he grew old, repented him that he had placed the earth in the middle of the universe, which was not its place." -- Plutarch, historian, Platonic Questions, VIII, 1st century

"... Pythagoras, on account of its immense force of attraction, said that the Sun was a prison of Zeus [Jupiter]...." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1690

"This [heliocentrism] was the philosophy taught of old by Philolaus, Aristarchus of Samos, Plato in his riper years, the whole sect of Pythagoreans, and that wisest king of the Romans, Numa Pompilius." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1694
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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AoS is either a nut-job or the best poe ever. Let him go on with his illogical rants and weird source material. It is fun to read and I would bet my house no one here takes him seriously.
Only an atheist or evolutionist could claim, with a straight face, that Pythagoras, Aristotle, Plutarch, and Isaac Newton are "weird source material."
 
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Naraoia

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Sure.

"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, The Illustrated London News, April 19th 1930

"If 50 million people believe a fallacy it is still a fallacy." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1970
"If famous people say so, doesn't make it true" - Me, evolutionary biologist, 2010.

Start backing up your claims with quotes that address the subject, pretty please.

Humans like us were in Mexico prior to 200,000 B.C. Therefore they cannot possibly have evolved in Kenya in 195,000 B.C.
Humans like us? Says what evidence? Far as I'm aware, no human bones have been found at the one such site I know of. Homo erectus/ergaster has been in existence (and out of Africa) for quite a bit longer than 200k years, so in lieu of concrete evidence, it's the obvious candidate.

An attack on the quality of the publications is an ad hominem fallacy.
Since when is a publication a person?

Of course you attack the quality because they disagree with you.
That, OTOH, is an ad hominem.

And on top of all that, I specifically stated that I'm going to DISREGARD quality issues. That means I'm not going to criticise a paper, or discard it as ID literature, because of quality issues.

Your claim, far as I could tell, was that a peer-reviewed literature on ID exists.

Whether the literature is good or convincing doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Ergo, I chose to ignore quality, and only examine whether the references you provided are about ID.

Note that I did NOT use the quality of any publication you listed to make a judgement about whether or not it's on ID. Also note that I acknowledged that a literature on ID may exist.

And having read that, you still have the gall to accuse me of doing something I didn't do, AND accuse ME of ad hominem in the same breath?

Ironic doesn't even begin to describe it.

You must have missed the part where it said intelligent beings directed a certain design called panspermia.
But, you see, "intelligent design" is the theory that certain properties of living things were designed, not evolved.

Crick and Orgel's hypothetical intelligent beings did not design anything about life on earth - they just sent some microbes on their way. Their argument does not aim to propose an alternative to evolution.

You are worse at semantic games than AV.

It talks about "intelligent design"...
In roughly the same way this wiki entry talks about different types of men.

...which you believe is unscientific...
Finally, you got something about me right! :clap:

...because you disagree with it...
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I also disagree with the Articulata hypothesis, but I don't call it unscientific.

...and have faith it is wrong.
Wrong again.

Do you know the difference between ID and the example I gave above?

The latter is testable (by molecular and fossil evidence, for example). ID, as far as I can tell, is not. If you think it is - what observations about living things, in your opinion, would contradict ID?

That's why I think ID is not scientific (aside from the religious issues brought up in the Dover trial, of course), and I'm open to convincing. You just have to answer my questions in the previous paragraph.
 
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Naraoia

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Define legal texts. My point is that they are illegal.
I'll translate for you.

Quote us the paragraph in US law that states "no alternatives to evolution shall be taught in public school biology classes".

Clearer now?

AoS is either a nut-job or the best poe ever. Let him go on with his illogical rants and weird source material. It is fun to read and I would bet my house no one here takes him seriously.
I'm afraid AV does...
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Humans like us? Says what evidence?
Says the archaeological evidence you are deliberately ignoring.

"The problem as I see it is much bigger than Hueyatlaco. It concerns the manipulation of scientific thought and the suppression of 'Enigmatic Data,' data that challenges the prevailing mode of thinking. Hueyatlaco certainly does that! Not being an anthropologist, I didn't realize the full significance of our dates back in 1973, nor how deeply woven into our thought the current theory of human evolution had become. Our work at Hueyatlaco has been rejected by most archaeologists because it contradicts that theory [evolution], period. Their reasoning is circular. H. sapiens sapiens evolved ca. 30,000-50,000 years ago in Eurasia. Therefore any H.s.s. tools 250,000 years old found in Mexico are impossible because H.s.s. evolved ca. 30,000- ... etc. Such thinking makes for self-satisfied archaeologists but lousy science!" -- Virginia Steen-McIntyre, tephrochronologist, March 30th 1981

"I determined fission-track ages on zircons from two of the tephra units overlying the artifacted beds. The Hueyatlaco ash yielded a zircon fission-track age of 370,000+/-200,000 years, and the Tetela brown mud yielded an age of 600,000+/-340,000 years. There is a 96 percent chance that the true age of these tephras lie within the range defined by the age and the plus or minus value. Now, there were four different geological dating techniques that suggested a far greater antiquity to the artifacts than anyone in the archaeological community wanted to admit." -- Charles W. Naeser, chemist, April 2007

Far as I'm aware, no human bones have been found at the one such site I know of.
So, since you're not aware of it, it can't possibly be true?

Homo erectus/ergaster has been in existence (and out of Africa) for quite a bit longer than 200k years, so in lieu of concrete evidence, it's the obvious candidate.
I'm not talking about Homo erectus in Africa. I'm talking about Homo sapiens in Mexico.

The latter is testable (by molecular and fossil evidence, for example). ID, as far as I can tell, is not. If you think it is - what observations about living things, in your opinion, would contradict ID?
"Intelligent design and evolutionary theory are either both testable or both untestable. Parity of reasoning requires that the testability of one entails the testability of the other. Evolutionary theory claims that certain material mechanisms are able to propel the evolutionary process, gradually transforming organisms with one set of characteristics into another (for instance, transforming bacteria without a flagellum into bacteria with one). Intelligent design, by contrast, claims that intelligence needs to supplement material mechanisms if they are to bring about organisms with certain complex features. Accordingly, testing the adequacy or inadequacy of evolutionary mechanisms constitutes a joint test of both evolutionary theory and intelligent design." -- William A. Dembski, philosopher, August 25th 2005

"Well, it [Intelligent Design] could come about in the folowing way, it could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilisation ... [came] to a very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, an intriguing possibility, and I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry and molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer. And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe." -- Richard Dawkins, atheist preacher, 2008
 
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BananaSlug

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Only an atheist or evolutionist could claim, with a straight face, that Pythagoras, Aristotle, Plutarch, and Isaac Newton are "weird source material."

Only a creationist would claim that everything somebody said is 100% correct.
 
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Naraoia

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Says the archaeological evidence you are deliberately ignoring.
I'm not. I was talking about Hueyatlaco, after all.

"The problem as I see it is much bigger than Hueyatlaco. It concerns the manipulation of scientific thought and the suppression of 'Enigmatic Data,' data that challenges the prevailing mode of thinking. Hueyatlaco certainly does that! Not being an anthropologist, I didn't realize the full significance of our dates back in 1973, nor how deeply woven into our thought the current theory of human evolution had become. Our work at Hueyatlaco has been rejected by most archaeologists because it contradicts that theory [evolution], period. Their reasoning is circular. H. sapiens sapiens evolved ca. 30,000-50,000 years ago in Eurasia. Therefore any H.s.s. tools 250,000 years old found in Mexico are impossible because H.s.s. evolved ca. 30,000- ... etc. Such thinking makes for self-satisfied archaeologists but lousy science!" -- Virginia Steen-McIntyre, tephrochronologist, March 30th 1981
Wait a moment.

Blatant insertion of word that she clearly didn't mean (my emphasis on what she did mean) aside, the quote doesn't offer evidence that these tools are from our own species. I could find a mention of "bifacial" tools in the abstract of the recent article that dated the site biostratigraphically. The wikipedia entry on Hueyatlaco mentions scrapers besides those.

These are, without further information, entirely consistent with the makers being Homo erectus. Who was alive and well in the Far East way before Hueyatlaco, whereas fossils of H. sapiens are not known from anywhere in the world before 200ky. IOW, H. erectus is still the obvious candidate.

"I determined fission-track ages on zircons from two of the tephra units overlying the artifacted beds. The Hueyatlaco ash yielded a zircon fission-track age of 370,000+/-200,000 years, and the Tetela brown mud yielded an age of 600,000+/-340,000 years. There is a 96 percent chance that the true age of these tephras lie within the range defined by the age and the plus or minus value. Now, there were four different geological dating techniques that suggested a far greater antiquity to the artifacts than anyone in the archaeological community wanted to admit." -- Charles W. Naeser, chemist, April 2007
I don't dispute the age of the remains. I dispute that they were made by modern humans.

I'm not talking about Homo erectus in Africa.
Good, 'cause I wasn't either.

I'm talking about Homo sapiens in Mexico.
Again, why must it be sapiens?

I'm not saying it's impossible. First fossil appearance by necessity post-dates the origin of a species, and the fossil range of H. sapiens has been extended a lot already. And when we left Africa, we reached just about every corner of the world in a few tens of thousands of years.

But, given that this would upset current consensus more than if the toolmakers belonged to an earlier human species, the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

"Intelligent design and evolutionary theory are either both testable or both untestable. Parity of reasoning requires that the testability of one entails the testability of the other. Evolutionary theory claims that certain material mechanisms are able to propel the evolutionary process, gradually transforming organisms with one set of characteristics into another (for instance, transforming bacteria without a flagellum into bacteria with one). Intelligent design, by contrast, claims that intelligence needs to supplement material mechanisms if they are to bring about organisms with certain complex features. Accordingly, testing the adequacy or inadequacy of evolutionary mechanisms constitutes a joint test of both evolutionary theory and intelligent design." -- William A. Dembski, philosopher, August 25th 2005
Conceded. In that specific formulation, ID is testable.

"Well, it [Intelligent Design] could come about in the folowing way, it could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilisation ... [came] to a very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. Now that is a possibility, an intriguing possibility, and I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry and molecular biology you might find a signature of some sort of designer. And that designer could well be a higher intelligence from elsewhere in the universe." -- Richard Dawkins, atheist preacher, 2008
My god. Did you really just quote Dawkins rambling? :D :D

Tell you a secret, though. "possible" =/= "testable" ;)
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Blatant insertion of word that she clearly didn't mean (my emphasis on what she did mean) aside, the quote doesn't offer evidence that these tools are from our own species. I could find a mention of "bifacial" tools in the abstract of the recent article that dated the site biostratigraphically. The wikipedia entry on Hueyatlaco mentions scrapers besides those.
You're a mind reader now are you?

These are, without further information, entirely consistent with the makers being Homo erectus. Who was alive and well in the Far East way before Hueyatlaco, whereas fossils of H. sapiens are not known from anywhere in the world before 200ky. IOW, H. erectus is still the obvious candidate.

I don't dispute the age of the remains. I dispute that they were made by modern humans.

Good, 'cause I wasn't either.

Again, why must it be sapiens?

I'm not saying it's impossible. First fossil appearance by necessity post-dates the origin of a species, and the fossil range of H. sapiens has been extended a lot already. And when we left Africa, we reached just about every corner of the world in a few tens of thousands of years.

But, given that this would upset current consensus more than if the toolmakers belonged to an earlier human species, the onus is on you to provide the evidence.
No. The onus is on you. You have no idea what the footprints of Homo erectus look like. You only know what the footprints of Homo sapiens look like.

"Scientists have recently announced the discovery in Kenya of some interesting footprints, found in layers of rock about 1.5 million years old. Researchers describe them as anatomically modern. That is to say, the foot structure is the same as in human beings like us. But most scientists today would never even dream of suggesting that the footprints were made by humans like us. According to their understandings, humans like us did not exist 1.5 million years ago. We had not evolved yet. Most scientists now believe the first humans like us came into existence about 150,000 years ago. So the Kenya footprints are ten times too old for modern humans. So the scientists attributed the footprints to the apeman called Homo ergaster, which some scientists believe to be a kind of Homo erectus. The problem is that we do not know what the Homo erectus foot structure was really like. No one has ever found a foot skeleton of Homo erectus. So at the present moment, the only creature known to science that has a foot just like that of a modern human being is in fact a modern human being, like us. Maybe in the future someone will find a foot skeleton of Homo erectus (or Homo ergaster) that is fully modern in it’s anatomy. But that has not been done yet. So if we are going to stick to the facts, to the evidence that we really have, then the most reasonable thing we can say is that the scientists in Kenya have found evidence that humans like us existed 1.5 million yeas ago. And this contradicts the current evolutionary accounts of human origins." -- Michael A. Cremo, author, February 2009

Conceded. In that specific formulation, ID is testable.

My god. Did you really just quote Dawkins rambling? :D :D

Tell you a secret, though. "possible" =/= "testable" ;)
:thumbsup:
 
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Naraoia

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No. The honus is on you.
"Honus" is not a word, and definitely not the word you wanted.

You have no idea what the footprints of Homo erectus look like. You only know what the footprints of Homo sapiens look like.
The postcranial anatomy of the two species is very similar. Why would their footprints differ in any major way?

Especially given the known geographic range of erectus. Those guys clearly had a thing for walking, why wouldn't they have the feet for it?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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"Honus" is not a word, and definitely not the word you wanted.
Pardon my typo.

The postcranial anatomy of the two species is very similar. Why would their footprints differ in any major way?
The Darwinist claim is that the morphologies of the two species are different. If you claim they are the same then they are the same species.

Especially given the known geographic range of erectus. Those guys clearly had a thing for walking, why wouldn't they have the feet for it?
Apparently your alleged cavemen were so primitive and unevolved that they circumnavigated the globe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/science/16archeo.html

Early humans, possibly even prehuman ancestors, appear to have been going to sea much longer than anyone had ever suspected.

That is the startling implication of discoveries made the last two summers on the Greek island of Crete. Stone tools found there, archaeologists say, are at least 130,000 years old, which is considered strong evidence for the earliest known seafaring in the Mediterranean and cause for rethinking the maritime capabilities of prehuman cultures.

Crete has been an island for more than five million years, meaning that the toolmakers must have arrived by boat.
 
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KIYX

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If you don't deny the Bible and all of Jewish history then I suggest you change your religion.

I see, so you were lying.

One doesn't need to deny jewish history to deny their religion.

Thanks for playing, please stop lying about what other posters believe or say.
 
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KIYX

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What country do you live in?

I live in the United States where it is illegal to teach any evidence that contradicts evolution in public school.

MOMMY MOMMY THAT MAN JUST MOVED THE GOALPOSTS!
angrylittlegirlbodylang.jpg


Yes he did dear, now come away from him before he starts telling you about the aliens.
motherg.jpg
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Yes he did dear, now come away from him before he starts telling you about the aliens.
Have you declared war on science?

"Perhaps the major lesson to be learned so far from looking for planets around other stars is that nature can make a lot more planets than we can dream of." -- Alan P. Boss, astrophysicist, October 2008

"We know that there are many stars and planets throughout the cosmos so there may have been countless civilizations that were destroyed by gamma ray bursts." -- Stanford E. Woosley, astrophysicist, 2007

"Aliens could attack at any time." -- Nick Pope, British defense minister, November 2006

"Our children and our grandchildren, et cetera, will be space aliens." -- Jim Logan, physician, July 2006

"As for extragalactic civilizations, I guess we would probably have difficulty recognizing any very intelligent ones." -- Halton C. Arp, astronomer, 2004

"They came from outerspace -- and posed for portraits." -- Erich Von Däniken, author, December 3rd 2002

"Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God." -- Michael Shermer, author, Jan 2002

"If they wish to perpetuate the cover-up, their purpose would be better served by remaining silent, as opposed to insulting the intelligence of the world's population by offering nonsensical explanations that, in no way, correspond with the evidence." -- David E. Twichell, author, 2001

"The Star of Bethlehem was an unidentified flying object in the truest definition of the term." -- David E. Twichell, author, 2001

"Anyone who thinks that there is not enough evidence to prove the existence of UFOs, has simply not studied the evidence." -- David E. Twichell, author, 2001

"...how did these diverse peoples, separated by great oceans and land masses, who could not speak the same language, come up with the same fictitious tales? Even the folklore of the various tribes of the world echo the same underlying theme. Gods descending from the sky in mystical vehicles of fire and smoke to set moral standards for mankind and aid in their development." -- David E. Twichell, author, 2001

"At first everyone believed that those debris were part of some novelty aircraft manufactured in the United States or England, but having done some measurements & material analysis, we came to the conclusion that none of the domestic or foreign manufacturers known to us could have produced this apparatus, at least not in the conditions existing on this planet." -- Pavel A. Klimchenkov, KGB officer, 1998

"It must be a very dour and pessimistic astronomer indeed who seriously doubts that there must be countless numbers of intelligent civilizations scattered throughout the universe on other planets which are orbiting around other stars. An attitude which asserts that man is the only intelligent life form in the universe is intolerably arrogant today ... anyone who holds such an opinion today is, fortunately for those who like to see some progress in human conceptions, something of an intellectual freak equivalent to a believer in the Flat Earth Theory." -- Robert K. G. Temple, author, The Sirius Mystery, 1998

"... civilization as we know it was an importation from another star in the first place." -- Robert K. G. Temple, author, The Sirius Mystery, 1998

"I believe it is time we explored the possibility that UFOs carry the angels of God." -- Barry H. Downing, reverend, 1997

"I wonder if what we now call the UFO reality, and what the Bible calls angels of God, are not the same reality. If this is true, then we humans have a lot of thinking to do." -- Barry H. Downing, reverend, 1997

"It can be doubtlessly proven from old Indic texts that the earth had been visited and influenced by extraterrestrials in remotest antiquity." -- Dileep K. Kanjilal, linguist, June 1995

"To me the most exciting speculation is the idea that extraterrestrials have indeed visited this planet in the past, which is what deductive logic would dictate." -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1995

"... in a universe in which life is also possible at many levels in an infinite range of scale too, life elsewhere becomes a certainty. It is therefore of interest to speculate about why we are not in obvious communication with extraterrestrials, rather than about whether or not such beings exist." -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1993

"The case in point is the origin of the human race. By either Von Daniken's approach or by Sitchin's, Occam's Razor argues that the single hypothesis of earlier alien contact with extraterrestrials to explain the wonders of the ancient world and the remarkable agreement among ancient texts in speaking of visitation by "the gods" should be prefered to the multitude of separate and ad hoc explanations others have offered. If mainstream science were not so preoccupied with avoiding extraordinary hypotheses, it would surely be agreed by most parties that the evidence, severely lacking though it is, mildly favors the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis over most others. However, it cannot be argued that the evidence is anything approaching compelling, especially since it is all indirect (i.e., no definite extraterrestrial artifacts have been found). And since the hypothesis is certainly extraordinary, science prefers to reject it until and unless some extraordinary proof comes along. But what if the hypothesis were true, but most of the evidence has been destroyed?" -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1993

"For all I know we may be visited by a different extraterrestrial civilization every second Tuesday...." -- Carl E. Sagan, professor, 1990

"In the vastness of the Cosmos there must be other civilizations far older and more advanced than ours." -- Carl E. Sagan, professor, 1990

"Two thousand years ago these extraterrestrials created a being to be placed on this planet to teach homo-sapiens about love and peace." -- Linda M. Howe, journalist, 1989

"The Hebrew original named them Nephilim; the teacher explained it meant 'giants'; but I objected: didn't it mean literally 'Those who were cast down', who had descended to Earth? I was reprimanded and told to accept the traditional interpretation." -- Zecharia Sitchin, author, 1976

"It should not surprise us that there must be other civilizations in our galaxy and throughout the entire universe." -- Robert K.G. Temple, author, The Sirius Mystery, 1976

"The question which this book poses is: Has Earth in the past been visited by intelligent beings from the region of the star Sirius?" -- Robert K.G. Temple, author, The Sirius Mystery, 1976

"Two theories can explain the artifacts described in this chapter -- either there was some kind of technological civilization in a bygone past, or the earth has been visited by beings from other stellar worlds." -- Andrew Tomas, author, 1971

"Personally, I'm absolutely convinced that extraterrestrial creatures have stopped on our planet because of the many traces they left behind." -- Viatscheslav Zaitsev, philologist, 1968

"I consider it extremely probable that not only plant and animal life but also intelligent living creatures exist in the infinite reaches of the universe." -- Wernher Von Braun, physicist, 1968

"... civilizations more advanced than our own could have developed on 100,000 planets." -- Erich Von Däniken, author, 1968

"The past teemed with unknown gods who visited the primeval earth in manned spaceships." -- Erich Von Däniken, author, 1968

"The Bible seems to suggest that angels are very much like missionaries from another world." -- Barry H. Downing, author, 1968

"Included in Biblical mythology was the belief that the Biblical people were frequently visited by superior beings from another world." -- Barry H. Downing, author, 1968

"We started in 1965. Early 1965. Well, I became interested in the idea the the universe is full of intelligent civilizations, which is the current scientific belief. Well the facts in the film only help you believe the story. But the scientists know now that there are about 1 hundred billion stars in our galaxy and about one hundred billion galaxies in the visible universe. The point is that there are so many stars in the universe that the likelihood of life evolving around them, even if it were possibilities of one in a million, there would be hundrerds of millions of worlds in the universe." -- Stanley Kubrick, film maker, 1968

"I believe it is possible for unknown foreign beings of superior intelligence to have visited our planet at a remote point in time." -- Hermann Olberth, physicist, 1967

"There had been aeons when other Things ruled on the earth, and They had had great cities. Remains of Them ... were still be found as Cyclopean stones on islands in the Pacific. They all died vast epochs of time before men came, but there were arts which could revive Them when the stars had come round again to the right positions in the cycle of eternity. They had, indeed, come themselves from the stars, and brought Their images with them." -- Howard P. Lovecraft, author, The Call of Cthulhu, 1926

"... the sixteenth century, an age -- as you must have been told at school -- when it was the great fashion among poets to make the denizens and powers of higher worlds descend on earth and mix freely with mortals...." -- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, author, The Brothers Karamazov, 1880

"... there are inhabitants in other worlds." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1781

"... there are more worlds, and on them more creatures of beauty to be found." -- Immanuel Kant, natural philosopher, 1764

"Stored in each orb, perhaps, with some that live." -- John Milton, poet, Paradise Lost, Book VIII, 1667

"... so our world's sunne
Becomes a starre elsewhere ...." -- Henry More, poet, Democritus Platonissans or The Infinity of Worlds, 1647

"... infinity of worlds there be;" -- Henry More, poet, Democritus Platonissans or The Infinity of Worlds, 1647

"And wast infinity
Of worlds...." -- Henry More, poet, Democritus Platonissans or The Infinity of Worlds, 1647

"... I should have found very noble Patronage for the cause [of extraterrestrial life] among the ancients, Epicurus, Democritus, Lucretius, &c. Or if justice may reach the dead do them the right, as to show, that though they may be hooted at, by the Rout of the learned, as men of monstrous conceits, they were either very wise or exceedingly fortunate to light on so probable and specious an opinion...." -- Henry More, poet, Democritus Platonissans or The Infinity of Worlds, 1647

"He [Anaxagoras] asserted ... that the moon contained houses...." -- Diogenes Laertius, historian, 3rd century

"He [Democritus] said that the ordered worlds are boundless and differ in size, and that in some there is neither sun nor moon, but that in others, both are greater than with us, and yet with others more in number. And that the intervals between the ordered worlds are unequal, here more and there less, and that some increase, others flourish and others decay, and here they come into being and there they are eclipsed. But that they are destroyed by colliding with one another. And that some ordered worlds are bare of animals and plants and all water." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century

"Alexander wept when he heard from Anaxarchus that there was an infinite number of worlds; and his friends asking him if any accident had befallen him, he returns this answer: 'Do you not think it a matter worthy of lamentation that when there is such a vast multitude of them, we have not yet conquered one?'" -- Plutarch, historian, 1st century

"Democritus, Epicurus, and their scholar Metrodorus affirm that there are infinite worlds in an infinite space ...." -- Plutarch, historian, 1st century
 
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