Which Commandments?

[Mark Quayle]

You say this in response to the question, "Can I tell if I am chosen? If so, how can I tell?"

So you are saying that if we do the following we are going to heaven:

1. continue in Christ.
2. Eventually...find yourself with a whole different focus in this life, and different reactions to the things of God.
3. Have the Spirit of God witness to our spirit that we are children of God.
Your list of requirements is quite different from the list that Jesus gave this man.

I'm having a hard time believing you are not purposely repeatedly misunderstanding me.

You don't even ask me if that is what I am saying. You TELL me that is what I am saying. "So you are saying that if we do the following we are going to heaven." No. That is not what I am saying. I am saying if you are of the elect, and regenerated, you will do those things.

I have follow up questions.

1. What does it mean to "Continue in Christ"?
2. Since the different focus is "eventual", are you saying it is optional?
3. How would I know if the Spirit of God is witnessing to my spirit that I am a child of God?

1. To continue pursuing Christ; to not 'fall away' for any length of time (the definition of which, or length of time of which is up to God, not up to anyone's conscience.)
2. It will happen if you are of the Elect, sooner or later. What does 'optional' have to do with it?? Do you suppose it is optional (to the Elect) whether God regenerates the Elect? I thought I had already walked you through Romans 8:5-8.
3. Haha! I guess you got to be a child of God to know!

 

[doubtingmerle]

You don't even ask me if that is what I am saying. You TELL me that is what I am saying. "So you are saying that if we do the following we are going to heaven."

I am simply echoing back what you said. You said that everybody that does these three things can know they are elect and going to heaven.

Have you backed down on that?

OK, I will simply ask again. Is there any way to know if you are elect and going to heaven?

I am saying if you are of the elect, and regenerated, you will do those things.

OK, the elect do those things.

Do some that are not elect do those things also?

If these are things which both the elect and the non-elect do, then they are not a sign of being elect as you claimed.

So do these three things verify that you are elect, or don't they?

1. To continue pursuing Christ; to not 'fall away' for any length of time (the definition of which, or length of time of which is up to God, not up to anyone's conscience.)

OK, so this is one of the three things you mentioned. "Don't fall away." That is extremely vague. But whatever it means, if you "Don't fall away" and do the other two things, then you said you are elect and will go to heaven.

2. It will happen if you are of the Elect

OK, "It" refers to "find yourself with a whole different focus in this life".

Fine. When I left Christianity I have found myself with a whole different focus in this life. Check.

3. Haha! I guess you got to be a child of God to know!

So how do you know that when the spirit witnesses that you are a child of God, that is it not just something that happens in your head? How do you know it is actually the spirit?

You seem to say that you know because you know. That is not very convincing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am simply echoing back what you said. You said that everybody that does these three things can know they are elect and going to heaven.

Have you backed down on that?

OK, I will simply ask again. Is there any way to know if you are elect and going to heaven?

No, I said that those who do not do those things can well suppose they are not elect. Those who think they are doing those things can have confidence, though, yes, even then they may be fooling themselves. There is no point at which one who has been doing those things can sit back on their laurels and coast.

I have not backed down. Yes, one can have confidence they are of the elect, though, yes, they may be fooling themselves.

OK, the elect do those things.

Do some that are not elect do those things also?

If these are things which both the elect and the non-elect do, then they are not a sign of being elect as you claimed.

So do these three things verify that you are elect, or don't they?

The non-elect may think they are doing those things, but Romans 8 shows that when they do, they are doing it in enmity --not obedience-- to Christ.

OK, so this is one of the three things you mentioned. "Don't fall away." That is extremely vague. But whatever it means, if you "Don't fall away" and do the other two things, then you said you are elect and will go to heaven.

Not exactly. Like I said before, you may convince yourself you are doing those things, and still not be elect. In the end, though God does give us conscience, we are not our own judges --God is.

OK, "It" refers to "find yourself with a whole different focus in this life".

Fine. When I left Christianity I have found myself with a whole different focus in this life. Check.

Your donkey is rather intelligent!

So how do you know that when the spirit witnesses that you are a child of God, that is it not just something that happens in your head? How do you know it is actually the spirit?

You seem to say that you know because you know. That is not very convincing.

Not that that is what I said, but my intention is not to convince you. Convincing is in God's bailiwick. But yes, I could be fooling myself.

 

[dcalling]

Ah, so Jesus was not telling him the truth when he told him he needed to keep these 7 commandments to get to heaven (plan A). If he needed to follow plan B (redemption) why didn't Jesus tell him he needed to follow plan B?

Jesus did tell him plan B, sell all his belongings and follow him. He refused.

You say this in response to:

And do we really need to keep all of them? How about the command to keep Saturday holy? How about the command not to mix wool and linen in a garment? How about the command to give to everybody that asks? How about the command to abstain from things strangled?​

Your answer seems to be that we can simply ignore the command to keep Saturday holy.

How about the other commandments? Can I also ignore the command not to covet, as long as I try to control my thoughts and keep my desires private?


I agree that it is wrong to sell a cheapened product as though it was something else. If this is what Deuteronomy 22:11 meant, why didn't it say so?

Back to my question: Is this one of the things that we must do to go to heaven?

I am asking you Christians what we need to do to get to heaven.

"Go ask the Jewish rabies [sic]" is not the answer I expected.

I wasn't asking about temple worship. I was asking about keeping Saturday holy, not mixing wool and linen in a garment, giving to everyone that asks, and abstaining from things strangled. Do we need to follow these to go to heaven?

Which commandments are for the purpose for separating Jews from others, and which are there to tell us what we need to do to go to heaven?


Actually, no, it is not out of scope. See the title of this thread? "Which Commandments?"

Questions about which commandments we need to follow are indeed within the scope of this thread.



Understood. There is a Plan A salvation (which never works for us mortals) and a Plan B salvation. Jesus told the man Plan A. That plan is apparently out. So what is required for Plan B? What must one do to go to heaven based on Plan B?

We do need to keep Sabbath (not Saturday) holy. We do need to keep all the commandments, i.e. don't covet etc. All of us will fall short, the only difference is some of us accepted the salvation of Jesus (a free debit forgive program in a sense) and some don't.

 

[HIM]

Jesus did tell him plan B, sell all his belongings and follow him. He refused.



We do need to keep Sabbath (not Saturday) holy. We do need to keep all the commandments, i.e. don't covet etc. All of us will fall short, the only difference is some of us accepted the salvation of Jesus (a free debit forgive program in a sense) and some don't.

Not Saturday? What day then?

So you keep the Sabbath Holy?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Jesus did tell him plan B, sell all his belongings and follow him. He refused.

Ah, so now we have 2 plans of salvation:

Plan A: Keep the 6 commandments Jesus stated in Matthew 19:17-20.

Plan B: Sell all your belongings and follow Jesus.​

All of us will fall short, the only difference is some of us accepted the salvation of Jesus (a free debit forgive program in a sense) and some don't.

Uh, now we have a third plan of salvation:

Plan C: Accept free salvation.
​

If there are 3 plans of salvation, why doesn't the Bible make that clear?

And why did Jesus hold out on this man? Why didn't he lead with his best offer, plan C?

We do need to keep Sabbath (not Saturday) holy.

Wait, what? Even if we follow plan C, we need to keep the sabbath holy? What else is in the fine print of plan C?

And by the way, Saturday is the sabbath. For instance Matthew 28:1 says,

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.​

Question: Since Easter occurred on the day after the Sabbath, on what day of the week did Easter occur?

We do need to keep all the commandments, i.e. don't covet etc.

... and don't wear clothes of mixed fabrics, and do kill people who teach another religion, and give to everybody that asks no matter what they ask for, and so forth?

 

[dcalling]

Not Saturday? What day then?

So you keep the Sabbath Holy?

Different people have different understanding. Usually Jewish people use Saturday as Sabbath, Catholic people and Protestants uses Sunday. I use a 24 hour period (traditionally it is sun down to sun down)

The reason is we don't know what a day in God's time is (it could be a thousand years or more), and no one knows for sure if the Iseralies keep the 7 day cycle perfectly during all those years (possible but unlikely, and not necessary)

 

[dcalling]

Ah, so now we have 2 plans of salvation:

Plan A: Keep the 6 commandments Jesus stated in Matthew 19:17-20.

Plan B: Sell all your belongings and follow Jesus.​

Uh, now we have a third plan of salvation:

Plan C: Accept free salvation.

If there are 3 plans of salvation, why doesn't the Bible make that clear?

And why did Jesus hold out on this man? Why didn't he lead with his best offer, plan C?
​

it is always one, accept God's salvation. It is pretty clear in the Bible, "And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”" (Acts 16:31), "I am the way, truth life no one comes to the father except through me" John 16:4.

That guys knows what he did is not enough, and that is why he as the second question. And when given the clear answer directly by God (sell all and follow me), he can't follow.

none of us can follow the commandments all the way, that is why salvation is needed. you just need to accept it. Once you accept it, it is a strange thing that you want to follow the commandments (example the sabbath), even though you can't go all the way.

​

Wait, what? Even if we follow plan C, we need to keep the sabbath holy? What else is in the fine print of plan C?

And by the way, Saturday is the sabbath. For instance Matthew 28:1 says,

Saturday Sabbath is Jewish tradition. Sunday is Christian tradition. I just use a 24 hour period.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.​

Question: Since Easter occurred on the day after the Sabbath, on what day of the week did Easter occur?

... and don't wear clothes of mixed fabrics, and do kill people who teach another religion, and give to everybody that asks no matter what they ask for, and so forth?

I have no idea when Easter occur and could care less the exact time

When God give commandments directly to you, you have to follow it. Read the Rabbies explainations and those are pretty good.

For us Christians (and Jews), since God does not give direct revlations any more, we follow the Bible, i.e. don't murder, don't live nor covet etc. The Bible teaches that if no one want to listen to us, just shake off the dust on our shoes and leave.

 

[HIM]

Different people have different understanding. Usually Jewish people use Saturday as Sabbath, Catholic people and Protestants uses Sunday. I use a 24 hour period (traditionally it is sun down to sun down)

The reason is we don't know what a day in God's time is (it could be a thousand years or more), and no one knows for sure if the Iseralies keep the 7 day cycle perfectly during all those years (possible but unlikely, and not necessary)

No it not.
Genesis 1 and 2 is clear and is back by Exodus 20

 

[doubtingmerle]

Different people have different understanding. Usually Jewish people use Saturday as Sabbath, Catholic people and Protestants uses Sunday. I use a 24 hour period (traditionally it is sun down to sun down)

The reason is we don't know what a day in God's time is (it could be a thousand years or more), and no one knows for sure if the Iseralies keep the 7 day cycle perfectly during all those years (possible but unlikely, and not necessary)

So "remember the Sabbath to keep it holy" means make one day of your week holy? Why doesn't the commandment say that?

Numbers 15:32-36 say:

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
​

So all this man had to say was, "I personally keep Sunday holy instead of Saturday"?

 

[doubtingmerle]

it is always one, accept God's salvation. It is pretty clear in the Bible, "And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”" (Acts 16:31), "I am the way, truth life no one comes to the father except through me" John 16:4.

This is what I call plan C. So is that your final answer? Plan C?

So was Jesus testifying falsely when he told this man he needed to follow commands to get to heaven?

That guys knows what he did is not enough, and that is why he as the second question. And when given the clear answer directly by God (sell all and follow me), he can't follow.

This is what I call plan B. So is that your final answer? Plan B?

none of us can follow the commandments all the way, that is why salvation is needed. you just need to accept it.

To err is human, to forgive is divine.

One would think if I did what I could, God would be willing to forgive human errors in judgement.

It is a strange thing that you want to follow the commandments (example the sabbath), even though you can't go all the way.

I want to follow commands that make sense, such as not killing or stealing. I really don't have a desire to follow the commands that don't make sense, such as not wearing mixed fabrics.

I have no idea when Easter occur and could care less the exact time

OK, but the writer of Matthew cared. Matthew said that Easter occurred on the day after the sabbath. Do you agree with Matthew that Easter Sunday was the day after the sabbath?

When God give commandments directly to you, you have to follow it.

Fine. The Bible commands you to give to every man that asks. If I asked you for everything you had, would you have to follow that command?

For us Christians (and Jews), since God does not give direct revlations any more, we follow the Bible, i.e. don't murder, don't live nor covet etc.

...and give every man everything he asks you for, kill those who teach other gods, don't wear mixed fabrics, sell everything you have, etc. Why did your list stop short at just 2 of the commands in the Bible?

 

[Mark Quayle]

To err is human, to forgive is divine.

One would think if I did what I could, God would be willing to forgive human errors in judgement.

I think it would serve you well to do a good study into the Doctrine of Sin. In a sense, sin cannot be forgiven --it MUST be paid, and it WILL be paid by the sinner, or by the substitute. It is not a matter of God not being kind enough to simply forgive.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I think it would serve you well to do a good study into the Doctrine of Sin. In a sense, sin cannot be forgiven --it MUST be paid, and it WILL be paid by the sinner, or by the substitute. It is not a matter of God not being kind enough to simply forgive.

Interesting. I didn't know that was necessary.

I have had people sin against me, and I never once thought about demanding that a substitute die for what the person did. If the person wanted to make things right, I forgave him. I didn't demand a blood sacrifice.

If I can forgive without demanding a substitute, why can't God? Who or what is forcing God to require a substitute before he forgive? Whoever or whatever is forcing God to do this must be greater than God.

 

[cvanwey]

But yes, I could be fooling myself.

I'd gather that it is highly possible you are:

- invoking intentional agency - (due to evolution) -- but most end up committing type 1 errors, more often than not, even if a god(s) were to actually exist

- having been indoctrinated; for which you are a product of indoctrination

- conforming to your geographical surroundings -- (just do a google search for 'world religion map' and see how belief in differing religious philosophies seem to be conveniently clustered into finite regions of color - (with some outliers of course).

And you most certainly could be fooling yourself, simply by way of not observing external world skepticism.

 

[cvanwey]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

@doubtingmerle , I highly doubt any believer knows how one might enter heaven. The Bible is quite inconsistent, hence, the multitude of conflicting denominations. So here's my bit of help... Just skip forward to (3:20), and beyond, if you wish:

 

[Mark Quayle]

Interesting. I didn't know that was necessary.

I have had people sin against me, and I never once thought about demanding that a substitute die for what the person did. If the person wanted to make things right, I forgave him. I didn't demand a blood sacrifice.

If I can forgive without demanding a substitute, why can't God? Who or what is forcing God to require a substitute before he forgive? Whoever or whatever is forcing God to do this must be greater than God.

You are not infinite God. You did not create the one who claims you are not relevant. Sin is what a friend of mine calls cosmic treason. If God was all other things that he truly is, yet subject to time, I believe sin would have destroyed the universe. What is true, real, fact, is actually distorted, but for God keeping it straight. What would otherwise have torn the fabric of reality is held in stasis by God until all things are completed. But it harms him to do so (The 'bruised heel'). Sin is the only thing that can harm him.

Sin is infinite crime against infinite God. And God is not only just, but the source of all justice. The smallest sin will be met, equaled, by infinite payment. For God to do otherwise would be contrary to his nature.

God created, the best way I know how to put it, according to his nature. As First Cause, and as Omnipotent, there is nothing greater than him, or that can control or govern him. There is no fact or principle from outside himself to which he must answer. If anything is "forcing" God to require a substitute before he can forgive, it is his own justice. But the whole notion that it is Forcing him to do this-before-that is not representative of what happens. He only does what he is. His eternal plan was not a mental struggle for him, but a delight, because in it, he shows his love and justice --his glory. God does not need to weigh one value against another to work out a plan.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'd gather that it is highly possible you are:

- invoking intentional agency - (due to evolution) -- but most end up committing type 1 errors, more often than not, even if a god(s) were to actually exist

You used this term before --
'Intentional Agency'-- and I never got an answer I could understand when I asked: WHO is the agent? In other words, exactly what are you talking about, saying, "invoking Intentional Agency". Also, how is it due to evolution? You mean, as a reaction to the teaching of evolution? Or are you saying that evolution somehow is causing me to invoke Intentional Agency? Or what are you saying?

Actually, I don't follow that paragraph at all, but then, you keep mentioning 'a god' or 'a god(s)'. I have no interest in gods. If you use such as a category into which to group God, First Cause, Omnipotent, go ahead, but the conversation is meaningless at that point. He is not them.

- having been indoctrinated; for which you are a product of indoctrination

- conforming to your geographical surroundings -- (just do a google search for 'world religion map' and see how belief in differing religious philosophies seem to be conveniently clustered into finite regions of color - (with some outliers of course).

And you most certainly could be fooling yourself, simply by way of not observing external world skepticism.

I can only guess why you are going there. Are you trying to say that in the end there is no real reason for me to believe what I do? If you have to revert to external world skepticism, to make me doubt what I have experienced, I'd say I have at least as much reason to believe what I do as anyone has to believe what they do.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You are not infinite God.

True.

You did not create the one who claims you are not relevant.

You are not doing much for my self esteem.

When I go to evangelical churches it is all about God valuing us and wanting a relationship with us. It is all about our relevance to God. Your view is quite a contrast to the mainstream.

Sin is what a friend of mine calls cosmic treason.

So if I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell "d___!" I have committed cosmic treason? Either that, or being a limited human being, I simply make decisions instantaneously that may not have thought through every implication of what I do. That is not treason.

Sin is infinite crime against infinite God.

I disagree. If a child steals a cookie from a cookie jar, he has not committed an infinite crime. He has committed a finite transgression. He does not deserve eternal hell because, in that moment of time, his hunger was more overwhelming in his mind then any sense of personal property he may or may not have been aware of.

And God is not only just, but the source of all justice.

In other words, if God wants it, it is just.

If God told you to kill innocent children, would it then be just for you to kill innocent children?

The smallest sin will be met, equaled, by infinite payment.

Sounds like something a third world dictator would say.

For God to do otherwise would be contrary to his nature.

OK, so why does God require a bloody sacrifice before he forgives? You tell us he requires that because that is his nature. If God is omnipotent, could he not choose to forgive without demanding a bloody sacrifice?

So there is no reason that Jesus needed to die, other than that God chose to do it that way?

And if I don't believe God's nature is such that he chose to demand the death of his son, I am doomed?

And what is your source that God's nature demands this? A book that is so contradictory nobody here can tell me what I need to do to go to heaven?

 

[Mark Quayle]

True.
You are not doing much for my self esteem.

When I go to evangelical churches it is all about God valuing us and wanting a relationship with us. It is all about our relevance to God. Your view is quite a contrast to the mainstream.

I'm glad to hear that about your self-esteem. To my mind it is obvious that our self-esteem should be derived from the truth --i.e. from God's view of things: It is in God's use of us, and assessment of us, that both satisfaction from intellectual truth and satisfaction from experience are found. Our position in the way of things finally makes sense, when we know what God is and what we are in relation to him. I love to be used by God, and my morality to be driven and judged by God. It's a good thing when my life is beyond my control, and under God's control.

Yes, evangelicalism has gone way beyond Scripture; I once conjectured that ALL cults and denominations have some truth to what is wrong with them --usually both the truth and error are identified with the denom/cult name. Usually the error is by way of excess, and/or of introduction of human thinking into the spiritual truth. I'm not sure I was right, but there is something to the notion. Evangelicalism has a lot of salesmen in it. They work to close the sale, full disclosure be damned. They don't mean to be like that, but they are like that. They even find themselves, like politicians, believing their self-made error. Their god is kind and nice, tame. Attractive, so they suppose.

But their god is a weakling, and doesn't quite make sense to the preachers kid, the missionary kid, and others who grow up within Christendom. Their creator depends on his creatures to make up his mind as to what to do next.

So if I hit my thumb with a hammer and yell "d___!" I have committed cosmic treason? Either that, or being a limited human being, I simply make decisions instantaneously that may not have thought through every implication of what I do. That is not treason.

It is worse than that. Your sins are (your sin is) within every thought and decision. It is treason to claim that such a King (the maker and sustainer of life) is irrelevant.

I disagree. If a child steals a cookie from a cookie jar, he has not committed an infinite crime. He has committed a finite transgression. He does not deserve eternal hell because, in that moment of time, his hunger was more overwhelming in his mind then any sense of personal property he may or may not have been aware of.

If he does not deserve hell for it, it is not sin. But, like I said above, as unregenerated people, sin is pervasive. It is found within every thought and deed. We are already condemned, not only for every sin, but for every sinfulness.

In other words, if God wants it, it is just.

If God told you to kill innocent children, would it then be just for you to kill innocent children?

If God told me to kill a whole nation of sinful people, would I? Who told you children were innocent? They are self-centered savages! Some would kill their parents in a torrent of rage, if they were able.

But your question has already been answered at length. God has the right to do as he sees fit. But if God commands me to kill, I'd better be sure it was God telling me.

Sounds like something a third world dictator would say.

I suppose it does. So what? They think too highly of themselves. God does not. He is, after all, THE SUPREME BEING.

OK, so why does God require a bloody sacrifice before he forgives? You tell us he requires that because that is his nature. If God is omnipotent, could he not choose to forgive without demanding a bloody sacrifice?

So there is no reason that Jesus needed to die, other than that God chose to do it that way?

And if I don't believe God's nature is such that he chose to demand the death of his son, I am doomed?

And what is your source that God's nature demands this? A book that is so contradictory nobody here can tell me what I need to do to go to heaven?

"The life is in the blood". The bloody sacrifice is 'the life poured out'. Jesus' death was the ONLY way God's purpose for creation could be accomplished.

You are doomed even if you do believe that "God's nature is such that he chose to demand the death of his son." You are doomed regardless of what you believe, unless you are born again.

Haha I'd say it was closer to the the truth that EVERYBODY can tell you what you need to do to go to Heaven. But true, they can be wrong and so can I.

But the book is not where the contradiction is. The contradiction lies within the attempt of humans to submit while remaining in control of their lives.

 

[cvanwey]

You used this term before --
'Intentional Agency'-- and I never got an answer I could understand when I asked: WHO is the agent? In other words, exactly what are you talking about, saying, "invoking Intentional Agency". Also, how is it due to evolution? You mean, as a reaction to the teaching of evolution? Or are you saying that evolution somehow is causing me to invoke Intentional Agency? Or what are you saying?

Actually, I don't follow that paragraph at all, but then, you keep mentioning 'a god' or 'a god(s)'. I have no interest in gods. If you use such as a category into which to group God, First Cause, Omnipotent, go ahead, but the conversation is meaningless at that point. He is not them.

1. In your case, you invoke (God) as this intentional agent/being/source.

2. It's due to evolution for the following reason...

10K years ago, you are walking along a path and hear a rustle in the high grass. Do you:

a: assume it is an intentional agent whom might be there to harm you
b: assume it is the wind, or some other benign reason

The ones more-so assume answer b) are more-so dead, and can no longer pass along their genes to their offspring.

This also works for 'good' outcomes.

Case/point: You are involved in a car wreck with three fellow members in the vehicle. The other three are injured or die, and you are unharmed: Do you:

a: assume it is an intentional agent whom might be there to help you
b: assume natural phenomenon and/or circumstances left you int he right place at the right time

3. Why do you assume your taught indoctrinated God is THE God? Surely, even using the 'first cause argument, could lead to alternate claimed deities.

I can only guess why you are going there. Are you trying to say that in the end there is no real reason for me to believe what I do? If you have to revert to external world skepticism, to make me doubt what I have experienced, I'd say I have at least as much reason to believe what I do as anyone has to believe what they do.

1. Yes, I am going here. As I told you in the other thread, for which I will address when I have more time... Both you and I are products of indoctrination. I just later found lack in reason to continue hold this indoctrinated belief, where you have instead found a way to continue holding this indoctrinated concept.

2. Your geographical surroundings make it easier for you to retain belief perseverance, either by finding the 'first cause argument', or many others. Remember what I also told you prior, about a staunch republican tuning into Fox for his/her news, while a staunch democrat may turn to MSNBC. This is one way we, as humans, cleave to our comfortable and already existing beliefs.

3. Why is it your believed God, and not another god or anything else?

4. You honestly think it's just as rational to believe Jesus did rise from the dead, verse not?