Which Commandments?

[dcalling]

Well, I had to take some time to go through our conversion history. You were asking multiple times on the requirements to go to heaven, and you are trying to tweak my word.

Got it. As far as I can tell, your list of requirements for heaven looks like this:

1. Believe on the Lord Jesus
2. Don't intentionally murder.

Is this your final list, or is there more? (And please don't divert the question by arguing there is also an unworkable plan by following the law, and please don't divert the question by talking about what causes goodness. I am asking what you must do, not what causes you to do it.)

As I said again and again, follow the law is not a requirement, it is a by product.

So the only requirement is Believe in God ...

dcalling, I am not asking you what causes you to do good. I am asking you what you need to do to go to heaven. Please let me know how many times you want me to repeat this.

I don't know why you can't see this. As I told you again and again...... Believe in God is the only requirement. All others come naturally (with the help of God) as a result, and not as a cause.

Again, I am not asking you what causes you to do good. I am asking you what you need to do to go to heaven. Please let me know how many times you want me to repeat this.

Let me repeat myself the (n)th time... All you need to do to go to heaven is believe in God

Is this you final answer? "No other action is required"?

You are just trying to tweaking my word now. I have clearly said the answer is "truly Believing in God"

No, sir, I am not tweaking your words. All I quoted back was , "No other action is required."

If you think that "truly believing in God" differs from "believing in God", how do they differ?

Did you see how many times I give you the answer and you just trying to avoid that answer? me: "believe in God", you:"Is this you final answer? "No other action is required"?" lol

 

[doubtingmerle]

No other action is required, although they will come because of you believe in God (unless you die right after you truly believe in God), but those are not required.

Do those deeds that "will come" need to come for one to go to heaven"? If so, those deeds are required.

You seem to think that if the resultant good works are done willingly, then they don't count as a requirement, even though they must come. That is flapdoodle.

Let me illustrate. Suppose you tell me that there is this great National Park that I can get in for free. I go and I find that they are charging $30 for admission. I come back and ask you why you said it is free. You say, yes, you had to pay the $30 but you wanted to pay the money. It went to support the National Forest, and it is beautiful, so you willing paid the $30 to support the forest. OK, but that is not the same as being free. The fact that you wanted to pay the fee does not change the fact that there was a fee.

Likewise, the fact that you say you now want to do good things does not invalidate the fact that you sometimes say you need to do these good things, or you cannot possibly be one that is going to heaven. If those who have lived long past the moment of salvation must do them for admittance, then they are a requirement.

Let's try another illustration. Suppose you go to get a new car and they tell you it is free.

Free? Really?

Yes, it is free.

So you accept. Unbeknownst to you they insert a chip in your brain that makes you "want" to give them $2000 a month for the rest of your life. So you take the "free" car. And you start writing a check to that company for $2000 every month. Was that car free?

No, that car was not free. And if a company had the ability to do this, it would be highly unethical. If they are implanting a chip that makes you want to give them a lot of money, they cannot say it is free. Further, if they implant the chip without your consent, that is highly unethical.

But we are somehow being asked to believe that God does something like this. He claims it is free, but he inserts the Holy Spirit into you. He does not specifically ask permission to do this. He just does it. All you are doing is believing, and a Holy Spirit is inserted into you that is more powerful than any chip. And this Holy Spirit makes you now want to do things so desperately that you do those things.

Any ethical God would tell you that a Spirit will be inserted in you that will control your mind such that you will do things you are not now willing yo do. And any ethical God would tell you what those things are.

It appears that the list of things includes things like not murdering or pillaging, which is good, but one wonders what else is on that list. An ethical God would surely tell us. Why are you so unwilling to tell us? Why the secrecy?

Regarding the claim that you have a Holy Spirit within you that somehow causes you to do good things, whereas unbelievers do not, that claim is clearly bogus. Both believers and unbelievers do good things. And there is not a huge moral difference between the two. In fact, if anything, I suspect the unbelievers live a more moral life.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Did you see how many times I give you the answer and you just trying to avoid that answer? me: "believe in God", you:"Is this you final answer? "No other action is required"?" lol

The problem is, when I ask you if that means one does not need to refrain from going on murdering sprees, you seem to say that actually, one needs to refrain from murdering sprees. So if your answer is:

Belief only.

Correction. Believe and don't murder.

Correction. Belief only.

Correction. Believe and don't murder.

ad infinitum.

Then which way is it? Does a person need to refrain from going on murdering sprees to go to heaven or doesn't he? Are there other requirements in the fine print? A simple final answer would make the question go away.

 

[dcalling]

The problem is, when I ask you if that means one does not need to refrain from going on murdering sprees, you seem to say that actually, one needs to refrain from murdering sprees. So if your answer is:

Belief only.

Correction. Believe and don't murder.

Correction. Belief only.

Correction. Believe and don't murder.

ad infinitum.

Then which way is it? Does a person need to refrain from going on murdering sprees to go to heaven or doesn't he? Are there other requirements in the fine print? A simple final answer would make the question go away.

I give you clearly the answer, only believe in God is enough. I know it can be very hard to comprehend. I hope this is clear now. I will answer the rest of your question in the other thread.

 

[dcalling]

Do those deeds that "will come" need to come for one to go to heaven"? If so, those deeds are required.

You seem to think that if the resultant good works are done willingly, then they don't count as a requirement, even though they must come. That is flapdoodle.

Let me illustrate. Suppose you tell me that there is this great National Park that I can get in for free. I go and I find that they are charging $30 for admission. I come back and ask you why you said it is free. You say, yes, you had to pay the $30 but you wanted to pay the money. It went to support the National Forest, and it is beautiful, so you willing paid the $30 to support the forest. OK, but that is not the same as being free. The fact that you wanted to pay the fee does not change the fact that there was a fee.

Likewise, the fact that you say you now want to do good things does not invalidate the fact that you sometimes say you need to do these good things, or you cannot possibly be one that is going to heaven. If those who have lived long past the moment of salvation must do them for admittance, then they are a requirement.

Let's try another illustration. Suppose you go to get a new car and they tell you it is free.

Free? Really?

Yes, it is free.

So you accept. Unbeknownst to you they insert a chip in your brain that makes you "want" to give them $2000 a month for the rest of your life. So you take the "free" car. And you start writing a check to that company for $2000 every month. Was that car free?

No, that car was not free. And if a company had the ability to do this, it would be highly unethical. If they are implanting a chip that makes you want to give them a lot of money, they cannot say it is free. Further, if they implant the chip without your consent, that is highly unethical.

But we are somehow being asked to believe that God does something like this. He claims it is free, but he inserts the Holy Spirit into you. He does not specifically ask permission to do this. He just does it. All you are doing is believing, and a Holy Spirit is inserted into you that is more powerful than any chip. And this Holy Spirit makes you now want to do things so desperately that you do those things.

Any ethical God would tell you that a Spirit will be inserted in you that will control your mind such that you will do things you are not now willing yo do. And any ethical God would tell you what those things are.

It appears that the list of things includes things like not murdering or pillaging, which is good, but one wonders what else is on that list. An ethical God would surely tell us. Why are you so unwilling to tell us? Why the secrecy?

Regarding the claim that you have a Holy Spirit within you that somehow causes you to do good things, whereas unbelievers do not, that claim is clearly bogus. Both believers and unbelievers do good things. And there is not a huge moral difference between the two. In fact, if anything, I suspect the unbelievers live a more moral life.

There is nothing hidden. Believe in God is all you need. No other deed is required.

So basically, I am not required to do any good deed, however this is my personal experience, that after I believed in God, I have changed and I am doing those things (and stay aways from certain things) out of happiness. It is a relive to not hate your enemies. It is not a burden, as I know God is like a father figure, when He tell you covet is bad, it is like your dad told you that fire is bad, don't touch it. The spirit of God will guide you, it is not a control, rather you have to learn to listen to it. In the Bible it is described as "
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God." (Romans 8:26-27). It is not a control, it is a very gentile guidance. Most people just ignores them, especially young Christians (they can be very old age but still young as a Christian).

Of course from time to time we humans with our sinful nature want to touch it, and got burned. However to go to heaven it is not required to not get burned. You can get burned many time and still enter heaven naked because all your cloth got burned away.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I give you clearly the answer, only believe in God is enough. I know it can be very hard to comprehend. I hope this is clear now.

Ok, so all you need to do is believe.

You don't need to refrain from mass killing sprees.

You don't need to refrain from serial rapes.

You don't need to love, to show compassion to others, or refrain from acts of terror.

All you need to do, according to you, is believe.

Many verses have been pointed out by other Christians that show you are wrong.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The spirit of God will guide you, it is not a control, rather you have to learn to listen to it...It is not a control, it is a very gentile guidance. Most people just ignores them, especially young Christians

Well, that is not the impression I got from your earlier posts. Those posts seemed to indicate the Holy Spirit somehow made it so you could not possibly do other than what he said.

Now the Holy Spirit appears to be like your mother: "Share your toys". "Say please". "Don't interrupt".

Hmmm. Couldn't they just make an app for that, an app that would monitor everything that is going on and whisper gentle advice in your ear?

 

[dcalling]

Ok, so all you need to do is believe.

You don't need to refrain from mass killing sprees.

You don't need to refrain from serial rapes.

You don't need to love, to show compassion to others, or refrain from acts of terror.

All you need to do, according to you, is believe.

Many verses have been pointed out by other Christians that show you are wrong.

That is what they believe, this is what I understand.

And once you believe, God will help you change. Take Paul, who was running around killing Christians, and once he change he became an apostle.

 

[dcalling]

Well, that is not the impression I got from your earlier posts. Those posts seemed to indicate the Holy Spirit somehow made it so you could not possibly do other than what he said.

Now the Holy Spirit appears to be like your mother: "Share your toys". "Say please". "Don't interrupt".

Hmmm. Couldn't they just make an app for that, an app that would monitor everything that is going on and whisper gentle advice in your ear?

Show one sentence from my post where I said "the Holy Spirit somehow made it so you could not possibly do other than what he said" I have said time and time again that I am a sinner just like you.

And if you would like, I can show you post after post you misquoted me and tried various ways to drag my clear statement to something else. Just see post 281 Which Commandments?

 

[cvanwey]

That is what they believe, this is what I understand.

And once you believe, God will help you change. Take Paul, who was running around killing Christians, and once he change he became an apostle.

I have some honest follow up questions for you...

1. How do you know if you are changed? Is this 'change' demonstrably detectable? And if so...

2. Do the 'chosen' continue to lie, cheat, trespass, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, dishonor their parents, lust, or any other defined sin? (yes or no).

If (yes), then it seems as though no one is truly changed; as they all still continue to sin against God.
If (no), then no one is ever chosen, as all continue to sin until natural death.

My point being, if you still sin against God, WHAT has changed?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Show one sentence from my post where I said "the Holy Spirit somehow made it so you could not possibly do other than what he said"

Ah, you would rather talk about the history of what was said. OK. I have been hearing you say that, when one believes, it causes that person to then do certain things. If it truly caused one to do these things, then there is no way the person could do something different. For instance:

all other things (i.e. love your neighbor, no covet, no muder etc) comes as by product of this, as you believe in God, God will change you, and you will became better and better.

You have to trust in Jesus, declare he is your savior with you mouth and in your heart. Once you do that you will be trying to follow the commands willingly.

Follow Jesus will make you follow commandments, even though none of us can follow it completely.

Nope, you need first accept God, and that will make you follow commandments.

And if you truly believe in Jesus, God's spirit will enter you and change you to be better

All others, i.e. worship him, good person (even though none is good) etc are not criteria but as a result of believe in Jesus.

A follower of Christ will fail morally, but they will not fail intentionally (i..e with planning). they could even kill, but they won't murder, God has the mind control (or more like guard rail).

Its amazing how these discussions change people. As things go along, views start to change. Sometimes a person doesn't even recognize what he said at the beginning of the thread as something he would say. It might be a good idea for you to go back and read this thread again sometime.

 

[dcalling]

Ah, you would rather talk about the history of what was said. OK. I have been hearing you say that, when one believes, it causes that person to then do certain things. If it truly caused one to do these things, then there is no way the person could do something different. For instance:

Its amazing how these discussions change people. As things go along, views start to change. Sometimes a person doesn't even recognize what he said at the beginning of the thread as something he would say. It might be a good idea for you to go back and read this thread again sometime.

Everything else I said I stand by, i.e. "All others, i.e. worship him, good person (even though none is good) etc are not criteria but as a result of believe in Jesus.", "And if you truly believe in Jesus, God's spirit will enter you and change you to be better", "Nope, you need first accept God, and that will make you follow commandments.", but I have to retract what I said about "God has the mind control (or more like guard rail).", God helps you to change, but mind control is way too strong a word in this case (that is why right after that I changed to guard rail). But now when I reflect, things like actually kill a person, we could not do, but sometimes hate someone I still do even I know I should not, so it is not even like a guard rail as I personally still cross over willingly. So it is more like a soft boundary, i.e. once I sin the Holy spirit will grieve and remind me. All God done (so far) is remind me and make the temptations easier to resist.

However we all make those mistakes, since we are all human, you ignored law of transition as well.

The one thing I disagree with your statement is "If it truly caused one to do these things, then there is no way the person could do something different.", which is in correct, as all believers are still sinners, and even though they will sin less and less (on average, it is more like a decreasing sine wave)., they will still sin never the less.

 

[dcalling]

I have some honest follow up questions for you...

1. How do you know if you are changed? Is this 'change' demonstrably detectable? And if so...

2. Do the 'chosen' continue to lie, cheat, trespass, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, dishonor their parents, lust, or any other defined sin? (yes or no).

If (yes), then it seems as though no one is truly changed; as they all still continue to sin against God.
If (no), then no one is ever chosen, as all continue to sin until natural death.

My point being, if you still sin against God, WHAT has changed?

1. differ from person to person. For me, it is from my understanding of the Bible and my personal experiences. The initial moment is like some one fliped a switch, and I just go "well let's try this could be right". The rest of the change are more gradual and up/down with upward trend with years of more understanding and sometimes debating. The change may or may not be demonstrably detectable. Even if you detect a change it might not be from the heart. So there is no way to know if others have changed, only yourself. Also all experiences are different as we are all different.

2. Yes
3. From God's perspective, their debt has been paid, their sin covered. From our perspective, we still sin, but overall on average sin less and less (i.e. no longer accelerate toward sin, but the other way around). it is like a stone been thrown upward, even though the height (sin) might still be increasing, the acceleration is downwards and eventually it will decrease.

EDIT: had to edit answer one on my personal experiences. It is a hard one, I still don't think I did it right. it is something like , i.e. if you feel to follow what you believe (i.e. love your neighbors, love your enemies) make you better and better, go follow it more.

 

[cvanwey]

1. differ from person to person. For me, it is from my understanding of the Bible and my personal experiences. The initial moment is like some one fliped a switch, and I just go "well let's try this could be right". The rest of the change are more gradual and up/down with upward trend with years of more understanding and sometimes debating. The change may or may not be demonstrably detectable. Even if you detect a change it might not be from the heart. So there is no way to know if others have changed, only yourself. Also all experiences are different as we are all different.

2. Yes
3. From God's perspective, their debt has been paid, their sin covered. From our perspective, we still sin, but overall on average sin less and less (i.e. no longer accelerate toward sin, but the other way around). it is like a stone been thrown upward, even though the height (sin) might still be increasing, the acceleration is downwards and eventually it will decrease.

EDIT: had to edit answer one on my personal experiences. It is a hard one, I still don't think I did it right. it is something like , i.e. if you feel to follow what you believe (i.e. love your neighbors, love your enemies) make you better and better, go follow it more.

So if you change, but the result of the change still yields sin against God, does this "change" mean anything to YHWH? Of course such a new belief would change you. Any new radical belief would; whether it be YHWH, Brahman, Xenu, or other... Does the change need to propel you to more-so follow the morals of the believed upon God? If so, how much is enough? Remember, you will still fall short.

I could also accept Christ, and also CHANGE from a democrat to a republican. Right? If the change differs for everyone, then maybe someone's change could be switching political views?

And to answer your "EDIT." Does the passport to heaven require that you do need to more-so follow His other stated requirements (i.e.) "love others as yourself", "treat others like you want to be treated", "don't steal", "don't trespass", etc..), or not? I'm now confused?

Or, are you saying that, "as a result of your new belief, you will change and follow Him more, but He does not care how much more."?

Remember, He does not tell His follows, "when you belief in me, you will no longer want to sin." He tells you not to sin. This is what He's tells believers.

 

[dcalling]

So if you change, but the result of the change still yields sin against God, does this "change" mean anything to YHWH? Of course such a new belief would change you. Any new radical belief would; whether it be YHWH, Brahman, Xenu, or other... Does the change need to propel you to more-so follow the morals of the believed upon God? If so, how much is enough? Remember, you will still fall short.

I could also accept Christ, and also CHANGE from a democrat to a republican. Right? If the change differs for everyone, then maybe someone's change could be switching political views?

And to answer your "EDIT." Does the passport to heaven require that you do need to more-so follow His other stated requirements (i.e.) "love others as yourself", "treat others like you want to be treated", "don't steal", "don't trespass", etc..), or not? I'm now confused?

Or, are you saying that, "as a result of your new belief, you will change and follow Him more, but He does not care how much more."?

Remember, He does not tell His follows, "when you belief in me, you will no longer want to sin." He tells you not to sin. This is what He's tells believers.

All of us will fall short of God, we will all sine, that is what humans do.

However for Christians, we know we are bad, and we know we can't do much about it, but God can, and we ask God to save us, and God promised He will help us, and by faith we know He delivers his promises in His manner and His time.

So basically I don't care how much is enough, or I might die tomorrow and don't have enough time for change/good deeds etc, because I know God has made the promise, from my own experiences, I trust God and I am not worried about anything else.

 

[cvanwey]

All of us will fall short of God, we will all sine, that is what humans do.

However for Christians, we know we are bad, and we know we can't do much about it, but God can, and we ask God to save us, and God promised He will help us, and by faith we know He delivers his promises in His manner and His time.

So basically I don't care how much is enough, or I might die tomorrow and don't have enough time for change/good deeds etc, because I know God has made the promise, from my own experiences, I trust God and I am not worried about anything else.

Does God require that believers be baptized?

 

[doubtingmerle]

And if you truly believe in Jesus, God's spirit will enter you and change you...that will make you follow commandments

Got it. If your new car comes with an app that makes you pay $2000 a month, an app that is absolutely impossible to resist, then that is the cost of the new car.

So you say you must be made to follow the commandments to go to heaven. That is the same as saying you must follow them.

God helps you to change, but mind control is way too strong a word in this case (that is why right after that I changed to guard rail).

Whatever. If the end result of the dealers technique is that you are caused to pay $2000 a month, then it doesn't matter if the persuasion is gentle. If it irresistably forces you to pay the money if you get the car, that is a cost you must pay for the car.

But now when I reflect, things like actually kill a person, we could not do, but sometimes hate someone I still do even I know I should not, so it is not even like a guard rail as I personally still cross over willingly.

What if you believe and then kill? Do you still go to heaven?

Or is this gentle force irresistable?

So it is more like a soft boundary, i.e. once I sin the Holy spirit will grieve and remind me. All God done (so far) is remind me and make the temptations easier to resist.

Got it. So if the car dealer puts an app on your phone that grieves and reminds you until you pay them $2000 a month, and nobody is ever able to resist these demands, then you must pay that $2000 a month for that car.

The one thing I disagree with your statement is "If it truly caused one to do these things, then there is no way the person could do something different."

Huh? If A truly causes you to do B, how can it possibly be that you can do different? On the other hand, if you have the ability to resist A, then A is not causing you to do B.

 

[dcalling]

Got it. If your new car comes with an app that makes you pay $2000 a month, an app that is absolutely impossible to resist, then that is the cost of the new car.

So you say you must be made to follow the commandments to go to heaven. That is the same as saying you must follow them.


Whatever. If the end result of the dealers technique is that you are caused to pay $2000 a month, then it doesn't matter if the persuasion is gentle. If it irresistably forces you to pay the money if you get the car, that is a cost you must pay for the car.


What if you believe and then kill? Do you still go to heaven?

Or is this gentle force irresistable?

I don't know how God made this, I can only speak of my own experience. If you truely believe in God, you will want to follow God's law and dislike what God forbids, hate/kill etc.

Got it. So if the car dealer puts an app on your phone that grieves and reminds you until you pay them $2000 a month, and nobody is ever able to resist these demands, then you must pay that $2000 a month for that car.



Huh? If A truly causes you to do B, how can it possibly be that you can do different? On the other hand, if you have the ability to resist A, then A is not causing you to do B.

 

[dcalling]

Does God require that believers be baptized?

This is my believe that baptize is only a ritual and not required as the theif who died on cross was not baptized. Believe is the only thing that is required.

 

[cvanwey]

This is my believe that baptize is only a ritual and not required as the theif who died on cross was not baptized. Believe is the only thing that is required.

Okay, but then in Mark, it also states:

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Since you did not die on the cross, next to Jesus, does baptism apply to you? Or, are you somehow exempt from Jesus' requirement of baptism?