Which Commandments?

[dcalling]

You call the commandments in plan A "requirements" but we can skip them by choosing plan B. In that case, they really aren't requirements.

So it seems odd to me that Jesus told this man only plan A (keep commandments) when he knew plan A was impossibly hard for humans, and a much easier plan B was available. Why didn't Jesus tell him plan B?



You seem to be saying that all Jesus had to say was, "You can't be good enough, but no worries, it does not matter what you do. Here. Have eternal life. It's a gift. Accept it. No strings attached, except also you must surrender to Christ as Lord, follow God, and follow through on a specific commitment to turn your life around. Details to be described later."

OK, it comes back to "following God" and "fulfilling a commitment". And that is on top of the acceptance part? So there is some fine print we need to discuss before we sign on?

Must one "follow God" and "fulfill a commitment" to get to heaven? If one must follow God and fulfill a commitment to get to heaven, exactly what does that entail?

Yes one must follow God. By following God one will willingly try to fulfill all God's commandments, even though man will fail, but at least he will be trying since he is following God, and God accept us not because our actions (which will not up to his standard), but because we accepted God's redemption (i.e. he paid for our crimes).

 

[doubtingmerle]

Yes one must follow God. By following God one will willingly try to fulfill all God's commandments, even though man will fail, but at least he will be trying since he is following God,

Ah, so to get to heaven you must try to follow all the commandments.

There are hundreds of commandments in the Bible. Jesus only listed seven, but he really meant all of them? Why didn't he just say "all of them"?

And do we really need to keep all of them? How about the command to keep Saturday holy? How about the command not to mix wool and linen in a garment? How about the command to give to everybody that asks? How about the command to abstain from things strangled?

I grew up on a farm. Once a heifer got her head caught and strangled herself. My Dad knew the heifer was alive several minutes earlier, so he quickly drained the blood and called the butcher. Acts 15:20 commands us not to eat things strangled. Did we sin when we ate that meat?

and God accept us not because our actions (which will not up to his standard), but because we accepted God's redemption (i.e. he paid for our crimes).

So there are two plans to get to heaven?

Plan A: Keep all commandments perfectly.

Plan B: "Accept God's redemption" and also try to keep all the commandments. If you select Plan B, some failures are allowed.
​

In Matthew, why did Jesus only mention Plan A (which is impossible). Why not tell him about Plan B?

And it's still unclear what "accept God's redemption" means.

 

[DamianWarS]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

I think one unanswered part here is despite the man keeping these 7 commandments he still is lacking which ultimately Jesus tells him to sell his possessions and follow him. But Jesus seems to use this list as a segue to the request to follow him already knowing what he would say and this suggests the latter is more powerful than the former. The part you left unquoted is that the man turned away and the implication is he was unwilling to comply because he had great wealth. Jesus then makes his points regarding wealth which prompts a deeper conversation.

Hebraic logic and thought are often contained in blocks or in a storied approach where there is a goal and each detail builds to that goal and often with a clear break or change in the middle. I would suggest this is happening here too where if you stop too early you miss the point that the author is building to and wants you to see. Not to say that the account of the man is not important or that it didn't happen but what I think the goal the author is trying to make is building to the following Jesus part as the more important detail. Jesus makes a point to comment on how hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven and this troubled the disciples as in v25 it even says "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”" which I think is more the crux of the account and gets to the real point being made. I think your question stops too early and by focusing on the commandments only you are no different than this rich man and have missed the point.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Jesus seems to use this list as a segue to the request to follow him already knowing what he would say and this suggests the latter is more powerful than the former.

OK, here are the verses we are looking at. I will put the portion you wish to emphasize in blue.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

The question before us is what we must do to have eternal life. In response Jesus goes down the list and ends with "and thou shalt have treasure in heaven". That seems clear that the text in black is intended to be the answer to the question. But is the text in blue also required? It is the kind of thing that we sometimes slip in after a list: " Oh, and I forgot, one more thing, you also need to come follow me." So why does Matthew put the text in blue after the list and the promise? Was Jesus adding something Jesus missed in the first list? Or was Matthew adding something that Matthew forgot in the first list? He didn't have a word processor, so did he just added that "Oh, Jesus also said this, I forgot"?

Neither of those has good implications for the deity of Christ and the inspiration of scripture.

And if the most important requirement is the one in blue, how could it have been forgotten until the list was made and the promise was stated?

But anyway, let's say that the text in blue really belongs as a requirement for heaven. We are now completely away from getting to heaven by faith alone. We find that one needs to "follow Jesus" to get to heaven. Which leads to the followup question, "What does Jesus want us to do?" We can't really follow Jesus if we don't know what he wants us to do. And that just circles back to the original question in a slightly different format: What do we need to do to get to heaven?

So the answer to "What does Jesus say we need to do to get to heaven?" is "He says we need to do what he says we need to do"? That doesn't seem to answer the question.

 

[dcalling]

Ah, so to get to heaven you must try to follow all the commandments.

There are hundreds of commandments in the Bible. Jesus only listed seven, but he really meant all of them? Why didn't he just say "all of them"?

it is basically show him it is impossible to obey even one of them.

And do we really need to keep all of them? How about the command to keep Saturday holy? How about the command not to mix wool and linen in a garment? How about the command to give to everybody that asks? How about the command to abstain from things strangled?

I tried to keep every day holy, and try not to do work on at least one day a week. Wool/linen is more of the line of not to cheat (i.e. mix expensive fabric and cheap ones together and sell as the expensive one, hat is what I heard, may not be correct). The Jewish rabies can explain the rest better than me What I come to understand is, all things ceremonial (temple worship) are no longer required, and there are certain things God give to the Jewish people to seperate them from the rest of the world. Of course I could be wrong, but that is outside of the scope of our discussion.

I grew up on a farm. Once a heifer got her head caught and strangled herself. My Dad knew the heifer was alive several minutes earlier, so he quickly drained the blood and called the butcher. Acts 15:20 commands us not to eat things strangled. Did we sin when we ate that meat?


So there are two plans to get to heaven?

Plan A: Keep all commandments perfectly.

Plan B: "Accept God's redemption" and also try to keep all the commandments. If you select Plan B, some failures are allowed.
​

In Matthew, why did Jesus only mention Plan A (which is impossible). Why not tell him about Plan B?

And it's still unclear what "accept God's redemption" means.

Again, the commandments, we can't follow any perfectly, as we are all sinners, so for us only way is redemption, plan B, but Jesus can do plan A, and he set an example of it. We only care about what we can do.

 

[doubtingmerle]

it is basically show him it is impossible to obey even one of them.

Ah, so Jesus was not telling him the truth when he told him he needed to keep these 7 commandments to get to heaven (plan A). If he needed to follow plan B (redemption) why didn't Jesus tell him he needed to follow plan B?

I tried to keep every day holy, and try not to do work on at least one day a week.

You say this in response to:

And do we really need to keep all of them? How about the command to keep Saturday holy? How about the command not to mix wool and linen in a garment? How about the command to give to everybody that asks? How about the command to abstain from things strangled?​

Your answer seems to be that we can simply ignore the command to keep Saturday holy.

How about the other commandments? Can I also ignore the command not to covet, as long as I try to control my thoughts and keep my desires private?

Wool/linen is more of the line of not to cheat (i.e. mix expensive fabric and cheap ones together and sell as the expensive one, hat is what I heard, may not be correct).

I agree that it is wrong to sell a cheapened product as though it was something else. If this is what Deuteronomy 22:11 meant, why didn't it say so?

Back to my question: Is this one of the things that we must do to go to heaven?

The Jewish rabies can explain the rest better than me

I am asking you Christians what we need to do to get to heaven.

"Go ask the Jewish rabies [sic]" is not the answer I expected.

What I come to understand is, all things ceremonial (temple worship) are no longer required,

I wasn't asking about temple worship. I was asking about keeping Saturday holy, not mixing wool and linen in a garment, giving to everyone that asks, and abstaining from things strangled. Do we need to follow these to go to heaven?

and there are certain things God give to the Jewish people to seperate them from the rest of the world.

Which commandments are for the purpose for separating Jews from others, and which are there to tell us what we need to do to go to heaven?

Of course I could be wrong, but that is outside of the scope of our discussion.

Actually, no, it is not out of scope. See the title of this thread? "Which Commandments?"

Questions about which commandments we need to follow are indeed within the scope of this thread.

Again, the commandments, we can't follow any perfectly, as we are all sinners, so for us only way is redemption, plan B, but Jesus can do plan A, and he set an example of it. We only care about what we can do.

Understood. There is a Plan A salvation (which never works for us mortals) and a Plan B salvation. Jesus told the man Plan A. That plan is apparently out. So what is required for Plan B? What must one do to go to heaven based on Plan B?

 

[ChetSinger]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

I confess I haven't read the entire thread so maybe this has been covered.

The man Jesus was speaking to was under the Mosaic Law which contained 613 commandments.

You're right: all but the last one in Jesus' answer are among the original ten. The last one was given separately. I think Jesus was just cherry-picking some of the major commandments to provide the man some context for his reply. This was a personal conversation, not a sermon on soteriology. I don't attach any special meaning to those particular commandments because of this passage.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The man Jesus was speaking to was under the Mosaic Law which contained 613 commandments.

You're right: all but the last one in Jesus' answer are among the original ten. The last one was given separately. I think Jesus was just cherry-picking some of the major commandments to provide the man some context for his reply. This was a personal conversation, not a sermon on soteriology. I don't attach any special meaning to those particular commandments because of this passage.

Ah, so Jesus meant to say "All of them"? Why didn't he just tell the man to keep all of them?

Let me ask you the question that this man asked Jesus: Which commandments do I need to keep to have eternal life? I take it that your answer is, " it used to be all 613. Now there is a different list." Which commandments are in the new list?

 

[ChetSinger]

Ah, so Jesus meant to say "All of them"? Why didn't he just tell the man to keep all of them?

Let me ask you the question that this man asked Jesus: Which commandments do I need to keep to have eternal life? I take it that your answer is, " it used to be all 613. Now there is a different list." Which commandments are in the new list?

If you really are searching for eternal life, and not just hanging out here to find fault, I suggest you begin with this:

...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. - Romans 10:9-10​

 

[doubtingmerle]

If you really are searching for eternal life, and not just hanging out here to find fault, I suggest you begin with this:

...because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. - Romans 10:9-10​

So the list Jesus gave the man was irrelevant to the question of what we need to do today to have eternal life?

The correct list of things we need to do is confess and believe?

Why did Matthew repeat this irrelevant list, and never explain the true list?

 

[Mark Quayle]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

Jesus whole answer was rhetorical, as in, teaching, making a point, not in telling us the way to Heaven. The rich young man asked him a question, and not a good one, so Jesus answered him in kind.

Grace does not admit to earning entrance to Heaven. It is impossible for man to obey all the commandments perfectly, or to earn it any other way. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow to wrap oneself up in."

 

[doubtingmerle]

Jesus whole answer was rhetorical, as in, teaching, making a point, not in telling us the way to Heaven. The rich young man asked him a question, and not a good one, so Jesus answered him in kind.

So uh, Jesus was using, er, uh, sarcasm? He didn't really mean what he said about needing to keep these commandments to go to heaven? He was just joking?

There are a lot of folks here that think Jesus was serious. If people cannot tell if the sarcasm is serious or sarcasm, that is not effective communication.

Why give a wrong answer to a question about access to heaven, an answer that would later be taken as serious by many Christians?

And what is so dumb about the man's question: "What do I need to do to inherit eternal life." I have asked the question here, and people have tried to answer. If that is not a good question, why are people here answering this question?

Grace does not admit to earning entrance to Heaven.

The man was not asking what we need to do to earn heaven. I am not asking what we need to do to earn heaven. We are asking what we need to do to have heaven.

If you won a million dollars in the lottery and then asked what you needed to do to actually have the money, that is a good question. You might need to sign the check and deposit it. That act does not earn you the million, but it is what you need to do to actually have it.

Asking what you need to do to have your lottery winnings, and asking what you need to do to earn your lottery winnings are two different questions. Do you understand that?

What if I wanted to ask you what you needed to do to have eternal life? Is there any possible words in the English language that would make you understand that I am asking what you need to have it, and not asking what you need to do to earn eternal life? Are there any possible words that I could use to frame that question and you would understand what I was asking?

It is impossible for man to obey all the commandments perfectly, or to earn it any other way. "The bed is too short, the blanket too narrow to wrap oneself up in."

That's odd, because immediately following this story, Jesus responded that with man this is impossible but with God it is possible. So who is giving me the correct scoop? You who tell me it is impossible, or Jesus, who tells me that with God it is possible?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So uh, Jesus was using, er, uh, sarcasm? He didn't really mean what he said about needing to keep these commandments to go to heaven? He was just joking?

'Rhetorical' doesn't mean joking or sarcasm.

There are a lot of folks here that think Jesus was serious. If people cannot tell if the sarcasm is serious or sarcasm, that is not effective communication.

Not that your presupposition (that 'rhetorical' means sarcasm) is valid, but why would God want effective communication with those who are set on getting there by themselves?

Why give a wrong answer to a question about access to heaven, an answer that would later be taken as serious by many Christians?

It isn't a wrong answer. He answered the question in kind. Like I said before, the man asked what he can do to gain Heaven (does 'gain' feel better to you?) and Jesus told him what had been said for centuries: by obedience to the law.

And what is so dumb about the man's question: "What do I need to do to inherit eternal life." I have asked the question here, and people have tried to answer. If that is not a good question, why are people here answering this question?

Not everyone is on the same page. MANY Christians are of the opinion that grace is like you describe below, a gift you must reach out and take or something.

The man was not asking what we need to do to earn heaven. I am not asking what we need to do to earn heaven. We are asking what we need to do to have heaven.

A distinction without a difference. But, regardless, we do not --we cannot-- do anything to have heaven. Read Romans 8 again, vs 7 in particular. Heaven is only the result of Grace, not works.

If you won a million dollars in the lottery and then asked what you needed to do to actually have the money, that is a good question. You might need to sign the check and deposit it. That act does not earn you the million, but it is what you need to do to actually have it.

Asking what you need to do to have your lottery winnings, and asking what you need to do to earn your lottery winnings are two different questions. Do you understand that?

We are not talking about the lottery here. Read Romans 8 again. Verses 5-8 in particular.

It is not for just anybody, it is not up to chance, in spite of what most Christians will say. It is for those God chose, those God created for his particular purpose for creation, those in whom the Spirit of God has taken up residence, "new birth", done without consulting the one upon whom he has mercy.

You cannot merit your way, and you can do nothing to get what God gave you.

What if I wanted to ask you what you needed to do to have eternal life? Is there any possible words in the English language that would make you understand that I am asking what you need to have it, and not asking what you need to do to earn eternal life? Are there any possible words that I could use to frame that question and you would understand what I was asking?

Probably not any words that would convince me you are right. You can play with words, as most Christians do, and misunderstand the principle of perseverance, wherein a 'believer' indeed 'loses' what he thought he had, if he does not continue in Christ. If the Elect do persevere, they have Eternal life. But that too is the work of God, even if the Elect wear themselves out doing it. "It is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

And indeed the Elect will persevere. If one was to ask what happens if the Elect fail to persevere, it is a moot question.

That's odd, because immediately following this story, Jesus responded that with man this is impossible but with God it is possible. So who is giving me the correct scoop? You who tell me it is impossible, or Jesus, who tells me that with God it is possible?

Notice in the story what he says is possible. He is not talking about gaining Heaven by obedience to the law, but that God can do the impossible (as they were to later realize what he was talking about --that God himself would provide the way to be saved.)
'26 And they were even more astonished, and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”'

Remember also, Christ fulfilled the law. The New Testament is replete with conversations about that very matter, that people want to continue with the law instead of by the Spirit. (See Paul's contention with Peter and the Judaisers.)

 

[doubtingmerle]

and you can do nothing to get what God gave you.

Ah, but Jesus told this man that if he gave his goods to the poor he would have treasure in heaven. So what Jesus said is false?

'Rhetorical' doesn't mean joking or sarcasm.

Of course not.

The problem is that you appear to be saying that what Jesus said is false.

Saying something false as satire can be an effective means of communication. But saying something false in order to deceive is something very different. When Jesus made this false statement about salvation, was he using satire (hoping people didn't think it was true) or being deceptive (hoping they believed the lie)?

why would God want effective communication with those who are set on getting there by themselves?

What about all the people that would later read Matthew? Many people read Matthew and thought Jesus was telling the truth here.

Effective communication would have eliminated that error.

It isn't a wrong answer. He answered the question in kind.

Wait. It is not a wrong answer that we need to keep these commandments to go to heaven?

Well Ok then. You just said we need to keep these commandments to go to heaven.

So which way is it? Do we need to keep the commandments or don't we?

Like I said before, the man asked what he can do to gain Heaven (does 'gain' feel better to you?) and Jesus told him what had been said for centuries: by obedience to the law.

When people told others they needed to obey the law to have eternal life, were they telling the truth? If not, why did Jesus repeat it as though it was true?

A distinction without a difference.

Ah, there is no difference between signing a check to have the money, and doing something to earn the money?

Two people get a paycheck from the government. One does nothing and gets a check. Another person works hard as a policeman and gets his check. Both deposit the check to have the money. Did both earn the money?

Are you a socialist?

It is for those God chose, those God created for his particular purpose for creation, those in whom the Spirit of God has taken up residence, "new birth", done without consulting the one upon whom he has mercy.

Have you been chosen? How do you know if you were chosen or not?

Can I tell if I am chosen? If so, how can I tell?

Probably not any words that would convince me you are right.

I am not asking what I would need to say to convince you I am right.

I am asking if there is any possible way that a person can ask you what one can do to have something without earning it. Your answer appears to be that there is no possible way for a person to ask that in such a way that you would understand the question.

If the Elect do persevere, they have Eternal life. But that too is the work of God, even if the Elect wear themselves out doing it. "It is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

What do the elect need to persevere in? Do they need to persevere in not murdering? Do they need to persevere in not wearing clothes made of wool and linen? Do they need to persevere in selling everything they have? Do they need to persevere in keeping Saturday holy?

And indeed the Elect will persevere. If one was to ask what happens if the Elect fail to persevere, it is a moot question.

Most atheists persevere at being good also. Your point is?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ah, but Jesus told this man that if he gave his goods to the poor he would have treasure in heaven. So what Jesus said is false?

Did the man give his goods to the poor? If he had, and had treasure in heaven, he would have been one of the Elect.

Of course not.

The problem is that you appear to be saying that what Jesus said is false.

Saying something false as satire can be an effective means of communication. But saying something false in order to deceive is something very different. When Jesus made this false statement about salvation, was he using satire (hoping people didn't think it was true) or being deceptive (hoping they believed the lie)?

Who said it was a false statement? If the man had done as Jesus said, he would have been among the Elect. But the man didn't do as Jesus said.

What about all the people that would later read Matthew? Many people read Matthew and thought Jesus was telling the truth here.

Effective communication would have eliminated that error.

If all that is true, then obviously, 'effective communication' (again, according to your idea of the reason for the communication) was not what Jesus had in mind. However, as it is also true that God's word always accomplishes that for which it is sent, his communication was effective for that for which it was sent --just not the purpose you thought was intended.

"Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed." Isaiah 6:10

Wait. It is not a wrong answer that we need to keep these commandments to go to heaven?

Well Ok then. You just said we need to keep these commandments to go to heaven.

So which way is it? Do we need to keep the commandments or don't we?

Haha, I bet your wife enjoys your argumentative style!

I also bet you know the answer to your own innocent question. The way to Heaven is not by keeping the commandments. Like I said. Like the Bible says. IF we were to keep the commandments perfectly, we would go to Heaven, but that is not going to happen. (Read Romans 8: "5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.")

So there is one way to Heaven: The Lord Jesus Christ.

When people told others they needed to obey the law to have eternal life, were they telling the truth? If not, why did Jesus repeat it as though it was true?

Of course it is true. But it is not going to happen. That doesn't mean the whole notion of obedience is bogus. The redeemed, the regenerated, (the Elect) NEED to be obedient. It actually hurts to do otherwise. I'm not going to try to convince you of this --even Chrinos don't really know it. Disobedience brings grief to those who love Christ.

Also, lest one has hardened oneself to the pain of disobedience, the warning remains, that there are certain things that mark a person as a believer, among which is OBEDIENCE. So if a person is not obedient (continuous action), he is not of the Elect. Therefore, if a person is not obedient (temporary condition), he'd better straighten up and be obedient.

Ah, there is no difference between signing a check to have the money, and doing something to earn the money?

Two people get a paycheck from the government. One does nothing and gets a check. Another person works hard as a policeman and gets his check. Both deposit the check to have the money. Did both earn the money?

Are you a socialist?

What --you didn't read my answer? Eternal life is not the lottery. It is not a check to sign. It is not earned. It is not something that you have to position yourself to receive. It is the result of faith that is generated by the Spirit of God. You are trying to compare something that is as passing as this life, with something eternal and infinitely wonderful.

You don't find it ludicrous that eternity would hinge on the decision of a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human?

No, I'm not a socialist. I suppose you think that the free gift of eternal life sounds like socialism? That is the attraction of socialism. It resembles something good, like most lies do.

Have you been chosen? How do you know if you were chosen or not?

Can I tell if I am chosen? If so, how can I tell?

You can't tell, nor can I, except by continuing in Christ. Eventually, if not immediately, you (as elect) will also find yourself with a whole different focus in this life, and different reactions to the things of God. The Spirit of God also witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God.

I am not asking what I would need to say to convince you I am right.

I am asking if there is any possible way that a person can ask you what one can do to have something without earning it. Your answer appears to be that there is no possible way for a person to ask that in such a way that you would understand the question.

When the Grace of God gives the Spirit of God, who generates saving faith, confession (to God) and repentance, obedience, and pursuit of Christ, it is not something that a human is capable of receiving by valid choice. It is by God's choice alone. Even when the human wholeheartedly agrees and accepts, it is because that human's heart has been changed. (See Romans 8:5-8 again)

What do the elect need to persevere in? Do they need to persevere in not murdering? Do they need to persevere in not wearing clothes made of wool and linen? Do they need to persevere in selling everything they have? Do they need to persevere in keeping Saturday holy?

They need to persevere in obedience.

Most atheists persevere at being good also. Your point is?

No, actually, there is none good. See Romans 8:5-8 again. Or google, "reformed, total depravity." There is a form of goodness, which is also by the grace of God, who keeps men from becoming as bad as they would without his restraint. But even that is done in rebellion to God.

 

[dóxatotheó]

In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
​

Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

The Ten Commandments are not a set of rules which will guarantee salvation if followed. They have been given for an entirely different purpose. Galatians 3:24 says that the law is a schoolmaster that guards us, teaches us and leads us to Christ. What that means is that when we look at the Ten Commandments, we should see that we have broken them and recognize our utter helplessness to do what is right in God's eyes. We have all sinned and fallen short of His glory and goodness (Romans 3:23), and therefore we need His love and mercy (Romans 7:24-8:1). Thankfully, we have been given the amazing gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ, and all who believe and trust Him can say, with King David, "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin" (Psalm 32:1–2).

 

[doubtingmerle]

You don't find it ludicrous that eternity would hinge on the decision of a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human?

With all due respect sir, I am not a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human. Please do not call me that.

Did the man give his goods to the poor? If he had, and had treasure in heaven, he would have been one of the Elect.

Wait, the man had to be Elect to get to heaven? Why didn't Jesus tell him that?

So if the man was not elect, he had no chance? He might as well sit back, relax, and have a few beers. Because nothing he does will make a difference.

But if the man was elect, then it is already settled? In that case, he might as well sit back, relax, and have a few beers. Because nothing he does will make a difference.

Why not just say, "If you are elect you are in. If not, you are out." Now go live a good moral life in cooperation with others, and don't worry about eternity.

If all that is true, then obviously, 'effective communication' (again, according to your idea of the reason for the communication) was not what Jesus had in mind.

I wasn't asking for communication according to me idea. I was asking for effective communication, such that those who read it can understand. As the Christians here have had widely differing views of what these verses mean, the communication doesn't seem to be clear to the intended audience.

Haha, I bet your wife enjoys your argumentative style!

Haha, it is not about being argumentative. It is a simple question. One place you say we need to keep the commandments to go to heaven. In another place you say we don't need to. I ask for a clarification and you insult my argumentative style. Huh?

Can I take it that you don't want to clarify whether we need to keep the commandments to go to heaven or not?

So there is one way to Heaven: The Lord Jesus Christ.

What does that mean? Does it include keeping commandments or not? If it includes keeping commandments, which?

The redeemed, the regenerated, (the Elect) NEED to be obedient. It actually hurts to do otherwise. I'm not going to try to convince you of this --even Chrinos don't really know it. Disobedience brings grief to those who love Christ.

Ok, we should keep the commandments or we will get beat up.

And does this beating keep us from heaven, or do we go there anyway?

And again, which commandments?

Also, lest one has hardened oneself to the pain of disobedience, the warning remains, that there are certain things that mark a person as a believer, among which is OBEDIENCE.

Obedience to which commandments? Why do you ignore that question?

So if a person is not obedient (continuous action), he is not of the Elect. Therefore, if a person is not obedient (temporary condition), he'd better straighten up and be obedient.

And what if the elect does not straighten up? What if he continuously rapes, murders, plunders and steals? Does he go to heaven?

What --you didn't read my answer? Eternal life is not the lottery. It is not a check to sign. It is not earned.

What, you didn't read what you just quoted? Because what you quoted had said nothing about eternal life being a lottery or a check to sign.

Rewind: You had told me that you did not see the difference between doing something to earn something and doing something to have that thing. I gave you an illustration to show you the difference. Do you now understand the difference?

You don't find it ludicrous that eternity would hinge on the decision of a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human?

I think it is ludicrous for you to call me a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human.

Please show respect for other humans.

I suppose you think that the free gift of eternal life sounds like socialism?

Actually, yes. Free healthcare, free food, free protection, free entertainment, free housing, all run by a strong centralized government. Yes, heaven sounds like a socialist dictatorship.

You can't tell, nor can I, except by continuing in Christ.

How can I tell if I am continuing in Christ? What does that even mean?

They need to persevere in obedience.

Obedience to what? What commands to I need to persevere in if I want to go to heaven.

 

[Mark Quayle]

With all due respect sir, I am not a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human. Please do not call me that.

Strange to me you don't recognize human frailty in yourself. But you are in good company. I'm not calling you that in comparison with other people. I'm calling all of us --all of humanity-- that, in comparison with God. Probably even in comparison with other spiritual beings, angels and demons, all irrevocably dedicated to their cause and station.

Wait, the man had to be Elect to get to heaven? Why didn't Jesus tell him that?

So if the man was not elect, he had no chance? He might as well sit back, relax, and have a few beers. Because nothing he does will make a difference.

But if the man was elect, then it is already settled? In that case, he might as well sit back, relax, and have a few beers. Because nothing he does will make a difference.

Hahaha! and you ask me why I call humans spiritually ignorant and stupid! It is a self-important mindset, that demands God deal with us according to OUR understanding, according to our thinking. If one is Elect --that is to say, if God has chosen and created him for the particular purpose of producing that member of the people for himself-- God will see to it that he becomes born-again and perseveres. That makes it a sure fact --not an automatic fact.

Why not just say, "If you are elect you are in. If not, you are out." Now go live a good moral life in cooperation with others, and don't worry about eternity.

Because if one is born-again, it is not just about living a good moral life in cooperation with others. If one is not yet born-again, we don't know whether they are elect, (and worrying about eternity may bring them to want to know more about the Gospel of Christ), not to mention that it is simply wrong to tell anyone what will happen will be automatic and they may as well be lazy.

Follow the logic here: All things (subsequent to first cause) are caused, one way or another, including all decisions of those subsequent effects (creatures, people). If one decides to be a lazy drunk because you told them the doctrine of the Election of Believers teaches that 'salvation and perseverance are automatic' and 'by the choice of God alone', then you have lied to them. When one pursues Christ, it is indeed caused, but they MUST. Their decisions, like everyone's, are caused, yet it is their decision. God uses means to accomplish his purposes.

Looking back from the end through time, it will be obvious, should you have told them that lie, that God used you and that lie as part of the causation of the drunk lazy man's decisions.

Yet the fact can still be seen, that indeed eternity hinges on God's decision --not man's-- yet man MUST decide. (And he will!)

I wasn't asking for communication according to me idea. I was asking for effective communication, such that those who read it can understand. As the Christians here have had widely differing views of what these verses mean, the communication doesn't seem to be clear to the intended audience.

Yet, that follows for any literature, according to the style and use of it. Also, with a subject as extreme as that of the Bible, people are bound to widely differ in what they see. But regardless, God has his purpose for writing it, and being clear to everyone is not it.

Haha, it is not about being argumentative. It is a simple question. One place you say we need to keep the commandments to go to heaven. In another place you say we don't need to. I ask for a clarification and you insult my argumentative style. Huh?

Can I take it that you don't want to clarify whether we need to keep the commandments to go to heaven or not?

Sorry. Are you saying you can't tell the difference between Salvation via righteousness of perfect obedience to the commandments, and Salvation through the righteousness of Christ? The perfect obedience route is only theoretical --it will not happen; the Gospel is the righteousness of Christ.

What does that mean? Does it include keeping commandments or not? If it includes keeping commandments, which?

What do you mean by "includes"? Are you asking whether one must obey? Yes, one must obey. Do you mean, must one obey to gain Heaven? No. Salvation is not the result of man's righteousness. But if one does not obey he does not belong to Christ. He is not saved.

Ok, we should keep the commandments or we will get beat up.

And does this beating keep us from heaven, or do we go there anyway?

And again, which commandments?

Beat up? What? The pain of disobedience for the redeemed is not a beating. I'm talking about grief and sorrow, and the interruption of communion with Christ.

Which commandments? What? All of them. Any of them. Particularly the two: Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Obedience to which commandments? Why do you ignore that question?

All of them. Any of them.

And what if the elect does not straighten up? What if he continuously rapes, murders, plunders and steals? Does he go to heaven?

I thought I dealt with that. The Elect does not continue in sin. 'Perseverance of the saints' within the Acrostic, 'TULIP', refers to the fact that God will see to it that the elect continue in obedience.

What, you didn't read what you just quoted? Because what you quoted had said nothing about eternal life being a lottery or a check to sign.

Rewind: You had told me that you did not see the difference between doing something to earn something and doing something to have that thing. I gave you an illustration to show you the difference. Do you now understand the difference?

I saw plenty of difference between the two in your example. But your example is not what we are talking about.

You show a difference with a temporal, human, social, example as though it demonstrates the spiritual principle, and that particular spiritual fact, where the Bible teaches it cannot be accomplished by anything we do of ourselves.

I think it is ludicrous for you to call me a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human.

Please show respect for other humans.

I'm not calling you that in comparison with other people. I'm calling all of us --all of humanity-- that, in comparison with God.

Strange to me you don't recognize human frailty in yourself. But you are in good company. Maybe I'm not as good as you, or possess your integrity, but experience should have shown you by now that you do not know it all, and do not have as strong a will as you wish sometimes you did.

This is perhaps my main argument concerning the logic of the fact that it MUST be the work of God to give 'rebirth'. When making a decision that includes this virulent struggle between flesh and spirit, we none of us have the depth of knowledge of: the Gospel, the depravity of sin, the complete reversal of spirit, the deep facts of the payment by Christ and just what sin entails. We none of us have the constancy of mind and spirit and will to continue what was begun, uninterrupted, we don't know what we are doing. It is the work of God.

Actually, yes. Free healthcare, free food, free protection, free entertainment, free housing, all run by a strong centralized government. Yes, heaven sounds like a socialist dictatorship.

The fact that there will be no more sickness, hunger, boredom, sadness etc is not because of socialism. You are confusing citizen-subjects of an earthly realm, with members (think, 'cells') of the body of Christ.

How can I tell if I am continuing in Christ? What does that even mean?

Obedience, pursuing ("following") Christ.

Obedience to what? What commands to I need to persevere in if I want to go to heaven.

Again you go with the notion of commands to achieve heaven. Perseverance does not cause one to go to heaven. Lack of Perseverance does not cause on to go to Hell. Jesus Christ is the reason people go to Heaven. The Spirit of God is the reason those who go to Heaven persevere. If one does not persevere, he is not going to Heaven. God is the judge of whether you should have and failed to persevere in some command. From my pov, it is all of them, though I know I won't be altogether faithful and obedient. Thank God for his grace.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Strange to me you don't recognize human frailty in yourself.

Sir, you called me a "weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human."

Sir, I am not a weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human.

Are you asking whether one must obey? Yes, one must obey. Do you mean, must one obey to gain Heaven? No. Salvation is not the result of man's righteousness.

I am not asking if salvation is the result of man's righteousness.

I am asking what commandments one must obey in order to go to heaven.

But if one does not obey he does not belong to Christ. He is not saved.

OK, so you say we need to obey to go to heaven.

Beat up? What? The pain of disobedience for the redeemed is not a beating. I'm talking about grief and sorrow, and the interruption of communion with Christ.

Understood. You are talking about a God who threatens psychological pain for not obeying.

There are better reasons to be moral instead of fearing psychological pain from God.

Which commandments? What? All of them. Any of them. Particularly the two: Love God with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Ah, so you need to obey the command to keep Saturday holy to go to heaven. How are you doing on that one? And you need to obey the command to give to everyone that asks. How are you doing on that one? And you need to obey the command to not mix wool and linen in a garment. How are you doing on that one?

Strange to me you don't recognize human frailty in yourself.

Sir, I recognize human frailty.

But I do not think I am a "weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human."

Can you understand how a person can recognize human frailty without seeing himself as a "weak, foolish, ignorant, self-important, fickle, flippant, emotional, spiritually blind and stupid human."

Again you go with the notion of commands to achieve heaven.

Sir I have been emphatic that I am not asking what one needs to do to achieve heaven as something earned. Emphatic. I am asking what commandments you need to keep.

When I am emphatic that I am not saying this, why do you ignore what I say and keep pretending I am saying what I am emphatically not saying?

Perseverance does not cause one to go to heaven.

Sir I have been emphatic that I am not asking what causes one to go to heaven. Emphatic. I am not asking what you need to do to earn heaven. I am asking what commandments you need to keep to go to heaven. You have said we need to keep all of them. .

Lack of Perseverance does not cause on to go to Hell.

Sir I have been emphatic that I am not asking what causes one to go to heaven or hell. Emphatic. I am not saying that. I am asking what commandments you need to keep to go to heaven. You have said we need to keep all of them.

Jesus, by contrast, told this man he only needed to keep some of them.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You can't tell, nor can I, except by continuing in Christ. Eventually, if not immediately, you (as elect) will also find yourself with a whole different focus in this life, and different reactions to the things of God. The Spirit of God also witnesses to our spirit that we are children of God.

You say this in response to the question, "Can I tell if I am chosen? If so, how can I tell?"

So you are saying that if we do the following we are going to heaven:

1. continue in Christ.
2. Eventually...find yourself with a whole different focus in this life, and different reactions to the things of God.
3. Have the Spirit of God witness to our spirit that we are children of God.
​

Your list of requirements is quite different from the list that Jesus gave this man.

I have follow up questions.

1. What does it mean to "Continue in Christ"?
2. Since the different focus is "eventual", are you saying it is optional?
3. How would I know if the Spirit of God is witnessing to my spirit that I am a child of God?​