Which Commandments?

doubtingmerle

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In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Jesus knew the man's weakness, that of his possessions. He couldn't overcome his material covetousness; the 10th commandment; even though keeping the other commandments. Jesus could have mentioned all of the commandments but he was likely focusing on the man's weakness, which prevented him from keeping the whole law.
 
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Hazelelponi

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In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus an important question (red text below).

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Matthew 19:16-21)
Which commandments must I follow to get into heaven? If I read this correctly, Jesus' first answer is that there are 6 necessary commandments. Five of those are in The Ten, and another one he threw in there from elsewhere.

The man sensed that this wasn't enough, so he asked a followup question: "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" And Jesus responds with a seventh commandment.

Is that the complete list? Seven total?

Some will no doubt tell me you don't need to keep any commandments to get to heaven, but then why did Jesus say you needed to keep these seven?

If the Bible is about getting to heaven, one would think it would be a priority to make this clear.​

If you notice, Jesus only focued on the commandments that were man-facing.

There are two groups of commandments, those which are God facing, and those which are man-facing.

Something told to us in the Scriptures (1 John 4:20) is that if we can't love our brethren who we can see, then how can we love God whom we have not seen?

So when we lack in those commandments that are man-facing, we will certainly and without any doubt lack in those which are God facing.

So Jesus's focus here was those commandments which are man-facing. And the reason he added the commandment from Deuteronomy - love your neighbor as yourself - is because that is the sum of every man facing commandment God gave man to follow. If you do that one, you keep the whole.

Jesus's point in telling the man to sell all that he has and give it to poor wasn't to create an additional commandment, but rather to show the impossibility for man to keep perfectly the commands of God... we always and without fail keep something back from perfection, however small or large it may seem to us.

Hence the ending of the example telling us "what is impossible for man is possible with God". God does for us, what we cannot do for ourselves.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Jesus knew the man's weakness, that of his possessions. He couldn't overcome his material covetousness; the 10th commandment; even though keeping the other commandments. Jesus could have mentioned all of the commandments but he was likely focusing on the man's weakness, which prevented him from keeping the whole law.

So if the man had kept all seven of the commandments listed, he still would not make it to heaven? God would have come back and indicated that there were a few more?

One would think Jesus would want to be clear here.
 
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doubtingmerle

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If you notice, Jesus only focued on the commandments that were man-facing.

There are two groups of commandments, those which are God facing, and those which are man-facing.

Something told to us in the Scriptures (1 John 4:20) is that if we can't love our brethren who we can see, then how can we love God whom we have not seen?

So when we lack in those commandments that are man-facing, we will certainly and without any doubt lack in those which are God facing.

So Jesus's focus here was those commandments which are man-facing. And the reason he added the commandment from Deuteronomy - love your neighbor as yourself - is because that is the sum of every man facing commandment God gave man to follow. If you do that one, you keep the whole.
Then why didn't he say that? "A good place to start is with the man-facing commandments such as _____, and then follow up with the God facing commandments, such as _____."

If I sign up for an insurance policy, for instance, I would like to know everything I am signing up for.

Jesus's point in telling the man to sell all that he has and give it to poor wasn't to create an additional commandment, but rather to show the impossibility for man to keep perfectly the commands of God... we always and without fail always keep something back from perfection, however small or large it may seem to us.

Hence the ending of the example telling is "what is impossible for man is possible with God". God does for us, what we cannot do for ourselves.
Ah, but Jesus says this in response to a question about what the man might be lacking to get to heaven. Was his lack of selling all that he has and giving to the poor keeping in from heaven? Then that is a commandment that needs to be followed. If it was not, then that is an inappropriate answer to the question.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Then why didn't he say that? "A good place to start is with the man-facing commandments such as _____, and then follow up with the God facing commandments, such as _____."

If I sign up for an insurance policy, for instance, I would like to know everything I am signing up for.


Ah, but Jesus says this in response to a question about what the man might be lacking to get to heaven. Was his lack of selling all that he has and giving to the poor keeping in from heaven? Then that is a commandment that needs to be followed. If it was not, then that is an inappropriate answer to the question.

First of all, Jesus did say that - quite clearly.

Second, this isn't about rule keeping. Do x, y, or z and you'll earn yourself a spot in heaven. The Jews had that down in spades. Rules people can generally keep, but what God requires is more than mere rule keeping - He requires a heart that loves and that is something beyond the ability of man in his flesh, and all those rules were there to show us that, to show us our desperate need of God's working in us to change us, not to make us pat ourselves on the back for how great we are at keeping the rules like the Jewish religious were doing.

Love, love of God, love of others is a heart condition that requires an act of God to justify us because our hearts are far from Him (Matthew 15:8). It's not about rule keeping, it's realizing we can't keep the rules because we don't have the right heart...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So if the man had kept all seven of the commandments listed, he still would not make it to heaven? God would have come back and indicated that there were a few more?

One would think Jesus would want to be clear here.

But the man couldn't even get started. He was blocked by the 10th commandment. No need to discuss any more if you can't even get in the door.

It is noteworthy that all of the five sins indicated by the commandments begin with covetousness.

James 4: 2

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Second, this isn't about rule keeping. Do x, y, or z and you'll earn yourself a spot in heaven. The Jews had that down in spades. Rules people can generally keep, but what God requires is more than mere rule keeping - He requires a heart that loves and that is something beyond the ability of man in his flesh,
Oh, but the man's question is about rule keeping: "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

If it is not about rule keeping, why did Jesus respond with a list of rules?
and all those rules were there to show us that, to show us our desperate need of God's working in us to change us, not to make us pat ourselves on the back for how great we are at keeping the rules like the Jewish religious were doing.
So the purpose of the rules was to convince people that they could not follow that particular set of rules?

Uh, anybody can make rules that are too hard to follow, yes?

Why didn't Moses tell the people that the rules were just a device to let them know they could not follow this set of rules?

One might read those rules and think they were, uh, rules that they were expected to follow.

Love, love of God, love of others is a heart condition that requires an act of God to justify us because our hearts are far from Him (Matthew 15:8). It's not about rule keeping, it's realizing we can't keep the rules because we don't have the right heart...
Jesus included the commandment to love others. Should he have dropped the other six and just said love God and others?
 
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doubtingmerle

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But the man couldn't even get started. He was blocked by the 10th commandment. No need to discuss any more if you can't even get in the door.

It is noteworthy that all of the five sins indicated by the commandments begin with covetousness.

James 4: 2

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

The 10th commandment (Thou shalt not covet) is an odd one. It is based on an obscure Hebrew word Nobody is sure exactly what it means. So what exactly is it forbidding?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The 10th commandment (Thou shalt not covet) is an odd one. It is based on an obscure Hebrew word Nobody is sure exactly what it means. So what exactly is it forbidding?

It is warning against the desire for things that either don't belong to you or aren't good for you, and if allowed to possess you will likely lead to the other sins mentioned, committed as a means of obtaining these things.
 
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doubtingmerle

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It is warning against the desire for things that either don't belong to you or aren't good for you
Ah, so if I see a beautiful house, and I really desire to have that house, then I need to stop desiring that house if I want to go to heaven?

Exactly how do I go about changing the fact that, in my heart, I really would like to have that house?
 
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Hazelelponi

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Oh, but the man's question is about rule keeping: "What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

If it is not about rule keeping, why did Jesus respond with a list of rules?

Because he was showing the man a truth about his heart, in a manner the man could understand and see clearly.

Why didn't Moses tell the people that the rules were just a device to let them know they could not follow this set of rules?

Because any lesson taught is best taught through experience.

What day have you ever, in complete perfection, loved God with all your heart, mind, and soul?

If your honest your answer will be never even once. Yet - that is the kind of perfection God requires to fulfill that commandment, and fulfillment of all the commandments of God in perfection is the requirement for man to gain entrance opon his own merit to heaven.

God is showing us our imperfections, our true heart, and our need of salvation because of them.

Galatians 3:24
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Ah, so if I see a beautiful house, and I really desire to have that house, then I need to stop desiring that house if I want to go to heaven?

Exactly how do I go about changing the fact that, in my heart, I really would like to have that house?

Nothing wrong with desiring a beautiful house, unless you plan on harming someone, including yourself, over it.
 
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Lukaris

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I believe Jesus told the rich young man plainly in Matthew 19:16-19 which is basically what St. Paul sums up in Romans 13:8-10. This is to be lived out in daily Christian life with basic charity & prayer ( Matthew 6:1-15). A good reflection of this is found in a surviving ancient church manual called the Didache

Didache
 
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doubtingmerle

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Because he was showing the man a truth about his heart, in a manner the man could understand and see clearly.
Was Jesus addressing the man's question about what he needed to do to have eternal life?

Or was Jesus ignoring the question, and just trying to make a point about the state of the man's heart?

Because it sure looks to me like an answer to the man's question.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Nothing wrong with desiring a beautiful house, unless you plan on harming someone, including yourself, over it.
And you get all this from the presence of the obscure Hebrew word hamad in the last commandment?

Perhaps Moses could have been more clear and said, "Thou shalt not harm other people when trying to get what you want." That doesn't seem to be what he said.
 
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Paulomycin

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But the man couldn't even get started. He was blocked by the 10th commandment. No need to discuss any more if you can't even get in the door.

It is noteworthy that all of the five sins indicated by the commandments begin with covetousness.

James 4: 2

2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

That's what I said, but Merle didn't like that, so he TP'd it to argue with others. :rolleyes:
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And you get all this from the presence of the obscure Hebrew word hamad in the last commandment?

Perhaps Moses could have been more clear and said, "Thou shalt not harm other people when trying to get what you want." That doesn't seem to be what he said.

James puts it plainly. Coveting what isn't yours can lead to murder.

James 1:14-16
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
 
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doubtingmerle

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James puts it plainly. Coveting what isn't yours can lead to murder.

James 1:14-16
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
How do you know that this is what Genesis means when it speaks of coveting.
 
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doubtingmerle

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That's what I said, but Merle didn't like that, so he TP'd it to argue with others. :rolleyes:
Excuse me, but I did not run from anything. The thread we were involved in was closed by the staff. I cannot respond to that thread.

So please do not criticize me for not responding to a thread that is closed. We are not allowed to do that.
 
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