Which "Christians" will not be saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Yes you can break the seal before the day of redemption.

I understand your opinion. But where does Scripture teach this?

It happened to me already. I got tricked. I thought I was becoming a family with hippies and was told to repeat after them in "Hebrew" to be a family.
I felt hesitant but just thought it's not that big of a deal is it. Because I was starting to trust them. Well, I said Lord please protect me I don't know what I'm saying. After I repeated the last word they corersed me to repeat I felt something Break off my heart, it felt like a seal and I felt the holy spirit leave out right afterwards.

So, you think the seal of the Holy Spirit on the basis of just your own faulty emotions?? That's NO WAY to identify doctrine. The ONLY WAY is to study Scripture and find verses that SAY what you think is true doctrine.

So far, you haven't quoted any Scripture. Just your emotions.

At the time it happened I didn't even know I had a seal or that I was even in a battle. So it took me days to process and figure it out. I later learned my hippy family were luciferian. I knew nothing about evil. Not really. As my abusers put it. I was like a child walking into a freeway.

There is NOTHING in your emotional experience that lines up with Scripture. It's just screwed up emotions.

And you know why? Because of what you admitted:

"I didn't know scripture or study the Bible but just followed the holy Spirit".

Except those who don't know Scripture or study the Bible cannot be following the Holy Spirit. That's where your problem begins.

You believe something that the Bible doesn't teach.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's called spiritual warfare and yes Satan is actually trying to kill you and hates you.

Yep. 1 Pet 5:8 - Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Right I was a total target because I didn't have Jesus Lol, if that was the case I would still be there. Instead my spirit got devoured by demons since I had unknowingly given myself to Satan. I had to sacrifice to get back in covenant. Which I didn't know at the time I just wouldn't join them when I finally finished gladiator school and figured out what they were about. I refused to join them! I had to sacrifice my spirit to get out of there alive and back in covenant with Jesus. I had to break an unholy agreement afterwards. But it's just my emotions Lol

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Satan comes to kill, steal & destroy

 

[Genxshipwreck]

My abusers always claimed to be Jew and we're white except one black guy.
Revelation 3:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Galatians 1:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Colossians 2:8-23 King James Version (KJV)

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[Gup20]

There are NO verses that speak of "breaking the seal". So please don't assume what the Bible doesn't clearly teach. Grieving the Spirit means loss of fellowship with the Lord. Which requires confession of sins per 1 John 1:9.


No, again, you are making assumptions that the Scriptures do not say. Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption, and Eph 1:14 says this about that:
" who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

So, the sealing with the Holy Sprit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance UNTIL the day of redemption, as God's possession.

v.14 is a promise (GUARANTEE) of eternal security.


Yet, our free will doesn't free us from God's hand.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are the promise of eternal security.
The blue words indicate that even the believer him/herself ("no one" includes "no person") cannot remove themself from His hand.

As if that isn't clear enough, Jesus then said, in the very next verse:

"29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."

I guess Arminians consider themselves "greater" than Jesus' Father, since they believe they can get themselves out of His hand. They are self deceived.


John 10:28,29 refutes your opinion.


John 10:28,29 refutes your opinion.

No one can snatch you out of God's hand... but you can walk away from God of your own choice.

[Jas 1:2-3 NASB] 2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

[Heb 10:35-39 NASB] 35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. 37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. 38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.​

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes you can break the seal before the day of redemption. It happened to me already. I got tricked.

The Bible says sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Psalm 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
(This is David)

1 Samuel 16:14
But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.
(King Saul was annointed.)

Judges 16:20
And she said, The phillistines be upon thee, Samson.
And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself, And he wist (wist=didn't have knowledge)not that the Lord was departed from him.

(Sampson loved a woman that was his enemy)

Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but E'sau have I hated.

Hebrew 12:16
Lest there be any formicator, or profane person, as E'sau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All I'm saying is it can be tampered with and it doesn't say it can't be.
(Our decisions matter. That's how we freely come to Christ and are not robots.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Right I was a total target because I didn't have Jesus Lol, if that was the case I would still be there. Instead my spirit got devoured by demons since I had unknowingly given myself to Satan.

Satan only prowls around looking for believers to devour. Those who are not believers are already his.

I had to sacrifice to get back in covenant.

This is totally unbiblical. Jesus is the Only Sacrifice for our sins. Seems you might have a "Messiah complex".

I had to sacrifice my spirit to get out of there alive and back in covenant with Jesus.

Where in the world do you get your ideas from?? Where does the Bible say anythig a about "sacrificing your spirit"??

I had to break an unholy agreement afterwards. But it's just my emotions Lol

You got that right! Emotions don't think. They just "feel". And many emotions are totally wrong, totally unbiblical.

Nothing of what you have described is found in the Bible. So, how do your emotions line up with Scripture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"you are making assumptions that the Scriptures do not say. Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption, and Eph 1:14 says this about that:
" who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

So, the sealing with the Holy Sprit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance UNTIL the day of redemption, as God's possession.

v.14 is a promise (GUARANTEE) of eternal security.


Yet, our free will doesn't free us from God's hand.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are the promise of eternal security.
The blue words indicate that even the believer him/herself ("no one" includes "no person") cannot remove themself from His hand.

As if that isn't clear enough, Jesus then said, in the very next verse:

"29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."

I guess Arminians consider themselves "greater" than Jesus' Father, since they believe they can get themselves out of His hand. They are self deceived."

No one can snatch you out of God's hand... but you can walk away from God of your own choice.

Please read my whole quote. I proved otherwise.

If you already did read my whole quote, then it would seem you DO think that you are greater than God, sincd you believe that you can get yourself out of His hand.

Jesus refutes your opinion very bluntly. When He said "no one", He obviously included "no persons". Are you a person, or some kind of alien creature? But even if you were, there are NO creatures that are exempt from what Jesus said about His Father's hand.

Once in His hand, Always in His Hand. Or, OIHH,AIHH.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Bible says sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

Arminians don't read the actual words. They read into the verse what they believe.

I guess the words be damned.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

I been studying the Bible four years after what happened to figure out what happened. All I know is they couldn't touch me before I repeated what they told me. I was a threat and I didn't know it. 3 months living there before I repeated that crap. Than they were able to use my gifts, and began to destroy me with witchcraft abuse and mind control. I still have trauma issues and PTSD. I believe God's word. Compare scripture with scripture. There are different dispensations=time periods. Scripture ties into scripture. What I went through isn't going to make sense to someone who's soil was on good ground. God is merciful and boy do I have regrets. I am sharing for the reason to show that pastors need to stop preaching everyone happy and preach them saved. Which means repentance and what exactly does repentance mean etc.....it's actually change of mind to start. But why? Most Christian's don't understand they're in a spiritual battle and most children that get saved are not discipled. Living in a fallen world, going to a fallen school. One weekly family Bible study after dinner could have saved my life in many ways. I'm not giving up just sharing for who needs to hear for whatever reason.

 

[Gup20]

Please read my whole quote. I proved otherwise.

If you already did read my whole quote, then it would seem you DO think that you are greater than God, sincd you believe that you can get yourself out of His hand.

Jesus refutes your opinion very bluntly. When He said "no one", He obviously included "no persons". Are you a person, or some kind of alien creature? But even if you were, there are NO creatures that are exempt from what Jesus said about His Father's hand.

Once in His hand, Always in His Hand. Or, OIHH,AIHH.

If one doesn’t gain salvation through works, then one can’t lose their salvation through evil works since works is not the transaction medium for salvation – faith is. So then, if we realize that our salvation comes indirectly by faith qualifying us for kinship with Abraham, and then receiving Christ’s righteousness as an inheritance because of that kinship, we know then the only way to “lose” salvation is to not be qualified as an heir of Abraham. The only way to do that is to not have faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Keep in mind that an heir doesn’t earn an inheritance… they receive it based on kinship, not merit.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
​

Your "proof" is easily refuted since scripture makes it clear that it is, in fact, possible for you to "shrink yourself back to destruction." The statement "the righteous shall live by faith" is conditional on IF he does not shrink back. It says we NEED endurance... not we want endurance, or it would be nice if we had endurance.

Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
​

Here again we see the conditional and continuous form of belief is required to maintain salvation.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

Here we see that one must continue in faith to continue in Salvation. While works of the law are not mentioned as being required to persevere in, unbelief can cause God to no longer be pleased with us. Also, we see the Word of God has divided soul and spirit. This means that, for the believer, the works of the flesh and a person’s mind and regenerated spirit are separated.

The Book of James is essentially explaining that you can lose your salvation if you don’t endure in your faith.

James 1:2
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have [its] perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.​

When you consider that it says “faith without works is dead” and not “righteousness without works is dead” you start to understand that James is not talking about getting saved, but talking about how to keep your faith strong so that you don’t lose your salvation. Why would God test faith if God is the one who gave it? Why would passing the test mean anything if you didn't lose your salvation for losing your faith?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I been studying the Bible four years after what happened to figure out what happened. All I know is they couldn't touch me before I repeated what they told me. I was a threat and I didn't know it. 3 months living there before I repeated that crap. Than they were able to use my gifts, and began to destroy me with witchcraft abuse and mind control. I still have trauma issues and PTSD. I believe God's word. Compare scripture with scripture. There are different dispensations=time periods. Scripture ties into scripture. What I went through isn't going to make sense to someone who's soil was on good ground. God is merciful and boy do I have regrets. I am sharing for the reason to show that pastors need to stop preaching everyone happy and preach them saved. Which means repentance and what exactly does repentance mean etc.....it's actually change of mind to start. But why? Most Christian's don't understand they're in a spiritual battle and most children that get saved are not discipled. Living in a fallen world, going to a fallen school. One weekly family Bible study after dinner could have saved my life in many ways. I'm not giving up just sharing for who needs to hear for whatever reason.

Friend,

I have also made the journey out of the grip of darkness.

It took me seven years to fell 'normal'

I read nothing at all except scripture for five years.

I am only released to speak like I am after a forty year wait.

Healing takes time.

Release from confusion takes time.

Are you in quality fellowship? Do you have access to the wisdom of elders?

This is critical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If one doesn’t gain salvation through works, then one can’t lose their salvation through evil works since works is not the transaction medium for salvation – faith is.

Correct!

So then, if we realize that our salvation comes indirectly by faith qualifying us for kinship with Abraham, and then receiving Christ’s righteousness as an inheritance because of that kinship, we know then the only way to “lose” salvation is to not be qualified as an heir of Abraham.

Incorrect. Salvation is by GRACE, through faith. I don't know what mean by "indirectly", but God directly saves those who believe.

Hebrews 10:36

For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
​

Your "proof" is easily refuted since scripture makes it clear that it is, in fact, possible for you to "shrink yourself back to destruction."

You misunderstand the meaning of "destruction". It is speaking of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11), which includes physical death (1 Cor 5:5, 110:30). Please look up these verses. They speak of physical death directly.

If anyone is able to remove themselves, by whatever criteria, from God's hand, then they are actually claiming that they are GREATER than God. That is precisely what Jesus said in John 10:29.

The statement "the righteous shall live by faith" is conditional on IF he does not shrink back. It says we NEED endurance... not we want endurance, or it would be nice if we had endurance.

Endurance is a work. It won't provide soul salvation to anyone.

Hebrews 3:6

Hebrews 3:12

Hebrews 4:3
​

Here we see that one must continue in faith to continue in Salvation.[/QUOTE]
Either you totally misunderstand Hebrews, or Moses didn't make it to Heaven. Which is it?

Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Do you realize that Moses was prevented from entering the promised land?

So, what am I to conclude from your statement? Is Moses in hell today, or is your understanding of Hebrews flawed. Because Heb 3:19 applies directly to Moses.

The Book of James is essentially explaining that you can lose your salvation if you don’t endure in your faith.

He said NOTHING about losing salvation. That is just a very long stretch.

In ch 2, he was admonishing believers to demonstrate their faith so others could see it.

iow, without demonstration of one's faith by works/deeds, no one else can see their faith.

James 1:2

Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have [its] perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.​

No mention here of salvation, or loss of it.

When you consider that it says “faith without works is dead” and not “righteousness without works is dead” you start to understand that James is not talking about getting saved, but talking about how to keep your faith strong so that you don’t lose your salvation.

I guess you don't realize that you are just trying to pit Scripture against itself.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life to shall never perish. Nothing about works, deeds, enduring, anything else Arminians can think of.

So, "IF" James WAS teaching that salvation can be lost, then we have a complete conflict between James and Jesus. Is that your position?

Why would God test faith if God is the one who gave it?

To teach US. We get the results of the test. It's for our benefit. Not His.

Why would passing the test mean anything if you didn't lose your salvation for losing your faith?

Well, you just misunderstand what "passing the test" even means. It isn't about salvation. It's about eternal reward. Which is earned.

 

[Gup20]

Incorrect. Salvation is by GRACE, through faith. I don't know what mean by "indirectly", but God directly saves those who believe.

The false notion that we are saved directly for our faith is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are dead wrong. Both have this same fatal flaw in their theology, which is why the debate rages on for hundreds of years (because both are wrong).

Faith DOES NOT qualify us for righteousness directly... faith qualifies us as descendants of Abraham. God gave Abraham Christ's righteousness (in a 1:1 exchange) for Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Then God promised Abraham that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness. So faith qualifies us as descendants of Abraham, and then in a second step we inherit righteousness as descendants of Abraham... so from faith to righteousness is an indirect relationship through kinship and inheritance.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 19 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

This understanding cancels the debate between Calvin and Arminius. Properly understood, faith results in human adoption, and has no need for spiritual regeneration which completely decimates the false notion of total depravity. You don't need to be regenerated in spirit for human adoption.

Further, that it isn't the will of man which influences God to choose them for their faith as Arminians suppose. Rather, it's God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness given to him that motivates God to save those who, by faith, are adopted descendants of Abraham. Lets say it this way -- the descendants of Abraham are the only "chosen people," but that group has open enrollment... those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are considered descendants.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.​

If anyone is able to remove themselves, by whatever criteria, from God's hand, then they are actually claiming that they are GREATER than God. That is precisely what Jesus said in John 10:29.

Not when God commanded them to do exactly that. God gives man a distinct, binary choice; choose life or choose death. This is a choice God sets before man... God doesn't make the choice for them.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
​

The last verse in Deuteronomy 30 really sums it up well. God has placed before us life and death, the blessing and curse... then gives us the command; choose life (in case it was unclear which would be the better choice). But note it says "I call heaven and earth to witness..." This heaven/earth synergy is echoed in Romans 8:

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

The Spirit himself (heaven) testifies (bares witness) with our spirit (earth) that we are children of God. Lest you claim that Deuteronomy 30 isn't talking about the righteousness of faith, look at Deu 30:6. It speaks of "circumcision of the heart." Further, Paul himself sets the record straight about Deu 30:

[Rom 10:3-11 NASB] 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit has to regenerate a person and give them the ability to have faith. In other words, they say that God makes the choice for them in heaven, and Calvinists say in their heart "Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?" But God says it is not too difficult for them and the choice for life and death is not made in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The false notion that we are saved directly for our faith is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are dead wrong.

Well, I do agree with you about your assessment of both Calvinism and Arminianism being "dead wrong". But not for the TRUE FACT that we are saved directly because of our faith. The Bible very plainly says so. Just one example: Paul's answer to the jailer's question:

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I have many more.

Both have this same fatal flaw in their theology, which is why the debate rages on for hundreds of years (because both are wrong).

The debates betweeen Calvs and Arms isn't about the basis for savlation. It's all the other stuff they don't agree on.

Faith DOES NOT qualify us for righteousness directly... faith qualifies us as descendants of Abraham. God gave Abraham Christ's righteousness (in a 1:1 exchange) for Abraham's faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Your second sentence here REFUTES your first sentence. Don't you see it?

Christ's righteousness is given ON THE BASIS of faith in Him. Please read Romans 3 and 4 and you'll see.

Then God promised Abraham that all of his descendants would inherit that righteousness.

Paul made clear that Abraham is the father of all who BELIEVE.

Rom 4:11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

So faith qualifies us as descendants of Abraham, and then in a second step we inherit righteousness as descendants of Abraham

So, what is this so-called "second step"?

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB] 19 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

Nothing in these passages supports your claims. But they do support mine.

This understanding cancels the debate between Calvin and Arminius.

Let's just put these 2 unbiblical theologies aside and deal with what the Word says.

Properly understood, faith results in human adoption, and has no need for spiritual regeneration which completely decimates the false notion of total depravity. You don't need to be regenerated in spirit for human adoption.

Well, you still bring in Calvinism. Their idea of "total depravity" is wrong because they go to far to claim that an unsaved person cannot believe the gospel until God chooses to regenerate them. That is false.

Further, that it isn't the will of man which influences God to choose them for their faith as Arminians suppose.

And they are just as wrong in their ideas. Esp the nonsense about losing salvation.

Rather, it's God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the righteousness given to him that motivates God to save those who, by faith, are adopted descendants of Abraham.

You just refuted yourself by the words "by faith", which you seem to be arguing against. That would make you as wrong as the Calvs and Arms.

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

The Spirit himself (heaven) testifies (bares witness) with our spirit (earth) that we are children of God.

Where ever did you get this notion that 'our spirit' refers to "earth"?? The words "our spirit" refers to people. Yes, they live on the earth, but they aren't the earth.

Calvinists say that the Holy Spirit has to regenerate a person and give them the ability to have faith. In other words, they say that God makes the choice for them in heaven, and Calvinists say in their heart "Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?" But God says it is not too difficult for them and the choice for life and death is not made in heaven.

Again, Calvinists are not reading the Word correctly.

 

[Gup20]

Well, I do agree with you about your assessment of both Calvinism and Arminianism being "dead wrong". But not for the TRUE FACT that we are saved directly because of our faith. The Bible very plainly says so. Just one example: Paul's answer to the jailer's question:

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I have many more.

Yes, those with faith are made righteous. The problem comes in assuming HOW this works. The Bible gives us the detailed explanation of HOW it works in Romans and Galatians. Yes, we know THAT it works (as Acts 16 says), but Calvinism and Arminianism build their theological frameworks on assumptions about HOW it works.

The debates betweeen Calvs and Arms isn't about the basis for savlation. It's all the other stuff they don't agree on.

Sure, but the only matter of importance in the debate is how salvation works... the rest are secondary issues.

Your second sentence here REFUTES your first sentence. Don't you see it?

Abraham will be the only person in history (including the resurrected Jesus Christ) who will ever have been made righteous directly for their faith. The rest of us INHERIT that righteousness by kinship.

[Gen 15:5-6 KJV] 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
​

Who is the "seed" God was talking about when he preached the gospel to Abraham in Genesis 15:5?

[Gal 3:16 NASB] 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

[Gal 3:18-19 NASB] 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
​

It's clear that the seed (singlular) spoken of in Genesis 12-17 is Jesus. So when God is preaching the gospel to Abraham, He is actually making a promise to Abraham, his descendants, and specifically Jesus Christ. One wonders why God would need to promise salvation to Jesus Christ.

[Gen 17:4-8 KJV] 4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

[Heb 13:20 NASB] 20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,​

Jesus was raised from the dead by the Abrahamic covenant - the covenant of faith in the gospel. This is profound because it demonstrates that the covenant is effective at giving righteousness to the believer.

Jesus gave up his righteousness and took on our sin & iniquity in the great redemptive exchange.

[2Co 5:21 NASB] 21 He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Isa 53:6 NASB] 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

[Gal 3:13-14 NASB] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

How does Jesus get his righteousness back without taking it away from all of us? I can understand that God would take his righteousness and give to Abraham, and give Abraham's sin to Jesus in exchange, but how does Jesus get righteousness back without Abraham getting his sin back?

Through the laws of sacrifice and inheritance. This is also how Christ's righteousness is multiplied to many rather than remaining a 1:1 exchange.

Jesus believed the gospel God spoke, and his faith in the gospel - the covenant God made with Abraham - is how scripture says Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus righteousness went (directly) to Abraham, and those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Abraham are considered descendants and heirs according to the promise God made to Abraham that his descendants would inherit that righteousness. All Jesus has to do to get his righteousness back and be resurrected is be qualified as a descendant through faith. His resurrection proves that this works! We can have full assurance of the method of salvation because Jesus has been witnessed as resurrected by hundreds.

Christ's righteousness is given ON THE BASIS of faith in Him. Please read Romans 3 and 4 and you'll see.

I agree 100%

Paul made clear that Abraham is the father of all who BELIEVE.

Rom 4:11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

I agree 100%

So, what is this so-called "second step"?


Nothing in these passages supports your claims. But they do support mine.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:11-13, 16-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

It says that those who are descendants of Abraham inherit the righteousness given to Abraham - "so that he might be the father of all who believe, that righteousness might be credited to them." It says the way to qualify as descendants is to have the same faith as Abraham (faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ). See how circumcision was the seal of the righteousness he obtained for his faith?

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Deu 30:6 KJV] 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 9:6-8 KJV] 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

Since Abraham is our spiritual father, then who is our spiritual mother (hint: it's not Mary)?

[Gal 4:22-31 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​

The two covenants talked about in Galatians are 1)faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and 2)works of the law. These are the two covenants that are the two "women" in Galatians 4.

[Gal 2:16 NASB] 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.​

So if you say 1)"I am made righteous for my faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ", or if you say, 2)"I am made righteous by my faith qualifying me as a descendant of Abraham and all descendants of Abraham inherit the righteousness of Christ because of God's covenant promise with Abraham", what is the difference? Functionally none.. in both cases we are made righteous for faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ, but the second sentence just has more details about the HOW. In most verses the Bible keeps the gospel simple, but Paul, being a lawyer, gets verbose on several occasions to explain to people like himself who want to know the HOW.