Which "Christians" will not be saved?

[Carl Emerson]

See if Mark 9:47 and Matthew 25:34-46 together
prove that the Kingdom of God is analogous to heaven.

Mark 9 is a pre- resurrection reference i.e. in this life. Folks are presented with and opportunity to walk in His blessing and under His rule now but many don't take it. They are not born again.

Matthew 25 is referring to the eternal judgement for both the saved and the unsaved.

So I see no reason to draw the conclusion you have.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I doubt that lol

That is your assumption

And there we have the motive for your false assumption.

What kind of response is this??

Why not rather just clarify whatever you actually believe? All you do is dance around, without being specific about anything. You've made it impossible to know your position.

This is what I asked:
"So, where are the dead saints now?"

And your lame reply:
"Dead". As if that answered anything.

I asked "where", which means a place, and you answered with a condition.

iow, you didn't answer anything. Just more dancing around.

This is an example of someone who isn't really interested in a serious discussion, but would rather dodge and dance around, keeping others in the dark about what they actually believe.

So, I'm going to give you another chance to show some maturity.

When a saved person dies physically, where is their soul NOW?

To give the same answer now would be quite stupid. And I don't think you are.

 

[timothyu]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Then along came the resurrection. But the prior still holds until that time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Then along came the resurrection. But the prior still holds until that time.

Sounds as though you have bought into the notion of soul sleep.

Eccl 9:5 speaks of having no more experiences of THIS LIFE.

But since you seem to be totally unaware of what else the Bible says:

Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

v.9 speaks of souls of believers who were martyred.
v.10 clearly proves that they have memories of life on earth. They remembered their deaths.

Mark 12-
26 Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”

Your view about those who have died is badly mistaken.

 

[timothyu]

Eccl 9:5 speaks of having no more experiences of THIS LIFE.

But since you seem to be totally unaware of what else the Bible says:

You seems to think that the Kingdom is instantaneous upon death and is open for business now.. Yet Jesus said the resurrection would be at a specific time that even He didn't know. It hasn't happened yet. Now the dead who know nothing will certainly not notice if a few thousand years or whatever have gone by in this world until that time, so to them it will be like the blink of an eye.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seems to think that the Kingdom is instantaneous upon death and is open for business now..

This is what the Bible teaches.

Matt 4:17 - From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

How can the kingdom be "near" if it's not experienced until the Resurrection, which will occur at the end of time?

Rom 14:17 - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

This sure is clear enough. Paul here is referring to being in fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit, while on earth NOW.

Col 1:13 - For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Note the tense "brought us". Not "will bring us some day".

2 Tim 4:18 - The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

There is zero reason to believe in soul sleep. It's a false doctrine.

Yet Jesus said the resurrection would be at a specific time that even He didn't know.[/QUOTE]
Correct. So what? Col 1:13 AND Rom 14:17 prove that the kingdom is now.

It hasn't happened yet. Now the dead who know nothing will certainly not notice if a few thousand years or whatever have gone by in this world until that time, so to them it will be like the blink of an eye.

I've already proved the fallacy of that view. I showed from Rev 6:9 that martyred believers KNOW they were and ask for revenge from God.

I recommend that you wake up from your own sleep.

 

[timothyu]

How can the kingdom be "near" if it's not experienced until the Resurrection, which will occur at the end of time?

Because the King was there and the will of God was about to defeat the will of man.

This sure is clear enough. Paul here is referring to being in fellowship with the Lord and filled with the Spirit, while on earth NOW.

Exactly, proving beforehand one has repented of the ways of man.

Note the tense "brought us". Not "will bring us some day".

Rescued when Jesus was 'finished' and the repentantbrought to the ways of the Kingdom

There is zero reason to believe in soul sleep. It's a false doctrine.

uh uh

I've already proved the fallacy of that view. I showed from Rev 6:9 that martyred believers KNOW they were and ask for revenge from God.

Analogy

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"There is zero reason to believe in soul sleep. It's a false doctrine."

uh uh

Since so much of your posting is too vague to understand, are you agreeing or disagreeing?

I said:
"I've already proved the fallacy of that view. I showed from Rev 6:9 that martyred believers KNOW they were and ask for revenge from God."

Analogy

No. Actual living souls in heaven asking for revenge.

 

[timothyu]

No. Actual living souls in heaven asking for revenge.

Name one.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I pointed out that there are living souls in heaven; people who were martyred who are asking God for revenge for their murder.

Name one.

Are you serious? I gave you Rev 6:9,10. Wasn't that clear enough?

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Does this sound like sleeping souls? Or dead souls?

I color keyed the verses in order to help you understand a bit better.

Red words refer to the living souls of those who had been killed (martyred).
Blue words describe actions of these living souls.

What more do you need to be convinced that the souls of believers who have died physically ARE present with the Lord?

Oh, btw, why would you think it necessary to ask me to "name one" of these souls, after seeing the verses I quoted.

The Bible didn't give us any names. That should have been obvious. It is obvious to all whose eyes are open to the Word.

 

[timothyu]

Interesting that one who would take it so literally could not give a literal example. Would you consider metaphor in this case? Jesus' whole style was metaphor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Interesting that one who would take it so literally could not give a literal example.

Since the Bible gave no names, it is absurd to ask for names.

Would you consider metaphor in this case? Jesus' whole style was metaphor.

No, I would not consider metaphors. Rev 6:9 is clear enough.

 

[timothyu]

No, I would not consider metaphors. Rev 6:9 is clear enough.

Yes agreed, I suppose anything is if it is seen as serving a purpose.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

You infact can grieve the holy spirit and break the seal before the day of redemption. There's lots of warnings in scripture. You can fall away, apostasy, rejecting Christ is the result of sin waxing your heart cold or hardened. You are sealed with the holy spirit inside until the day of redemption. We still have free will. So Jesus has to be Lord of your life to be able abide in him and him in you. So that you can remain in him and endure until the end. The Bible says there are covenant breakers. It lists many things that the Lord will not allow in the kingdom of heaven. Once saved always saved is not biblical.

 

[Danthemailman]

Most of us who post here in this forum are aware by now that there are tremendously diverse ideas of what it takes to make it to Heaven and escape Hell.

We know from the words of the Lord, if nowhere else in the scriptures, that there are a great many who consider themselves saved and even call Jesus their Lord who will be in for a rather rude awakening when they meet Him face to face.

I sincerely hope that the gospel net is so large that anyone who even names the name of Christ in any way will be saved. I just don't see that as being the case from the scriptures.

I suppose most Christians will agree about the out and out cults likely being lost _ with the exception of those who are in those cults of course.

But what about the ones in the general population of Christendom?

Being as careful as we possibly can to not say that any particular group as a whole is not saved (that's against the forum rules) - and understanding that obviously none of us here will be the final judge of these things - what is your general opinion as to where the line is when it comes to this rather upsetting truth about there not being salvation for all who name the name of Christ?

I.e. - in your opinion - what particular doctrine or lack of doctrine would likely form that God given line of division?

God saves us individually. "Whoever" believes in Him.. (John 3:16). Believers make up the body of Christ (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:18,24). Now there are certain churches that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches, but those who believe the true gospel and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel and if one truly believes that gospel, then one is saved. (Romans 1:16) But if one does not believe the gospel, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's particular church is correct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You infact can grieve the holy spirit and break the seal before the day of redemption.

There are NO verses that speak of "breaking the seal". So please don't assume what the Bible doesn't clearly teach. Grieving the Spirit means loss of fellowship with the Lord. Which requires confession of sins per 1 John 1:9.

There's lots of warnings in scripture. You can fall away, apostasy, rejecting Christ is the result of sin waxing your heart cold or hardened. You are sealed with the holy spirit inside until the day of redemption.

No, again, you are making assumptions that the Scriptures do not say. Believers are sealed FOR the day of redemption, and Eph 1:14 says this about that:
" who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory."

So, the sealing with the Holy Sprit is a GUARANTEE of the believer's inheritance UNTIL the day of redemption, as God's possession.

v.14 is a promise (GUARANTEE) of eternal security.

We still have free will.

Yet, our free will doesn't free us from God's hand.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The red words are the promise of eternal security.
The blue words indicate that even the believer him/herself ("no one" includes "no person") cannot remove themself from His hand.

As if that isn't clear enough, Jesus then said, in the very next verse:

"29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."

I guess Arminians consider themselves "greater" than Jesus' Father, since they believe they can get themselves out of His hand. They are self deceived.

So Jesus has to be Lord of your life to be able abide in him and him in you. So that you can remain in him and endure until the end.

John 10:28,29 refutes your opinion.

The Bible says there are covenant breakers. It lists many things that the Lord will not allow in the kingdom of heaven. Once saved always saved is not biblical.

John 10:28,29 refutes your opinion.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

The good news is that, there are many times in scripture we read a well known promise. God says he will not leave you nor forsake you. I have come to learn this is true. Several times I thought and felt it's too late for me because I messed up too bad. And I did mess up too bad but God showed me many different ways He means what he says. He's a God that will always help you. Sometimes I have really had to strive for his help by fasting, praying, studying etc but several times I was giving up he showed up to my surprise. So we can on our own mess things up pretty bad. Hurting mainly ourselves and making our walk much more difficult than it needed to be. Also unfortunately we are able to hurt God, make him very jealous, greive God and cause him sorrow. No matter the topic I'm straight forward and am answering right now from life experience, mistakes, my relationship with Christ and according to scripture. I apologize I have not yet posted any scripture. I am not feeling well and look forward to discuss topics in the future I can add reference to scripture. So yes we can really get destroyed by sin and disobedience but my hope is in Jesus and he hasn't stopped helping me even though I am shipwrecked. God is merciful so I keep moving forward but today I am feeling so guilty for falling off the narrow path. It's frustrating.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

Yes you can break the seal before the day of redemption. It happened to me already. I got tricked. I thought I was becoming a family with hippies and was told to repeat after them in "Hebrew" to be a family.
I felt hesitant but just thought it's not that big of a deal is it. Because I was starting to trust them. I didn't know scripture or study the Bible but just followed the holy Spirit. Well, I said Lord please protect me I don't know what I'm saying. After I repeated the last word they corersed me to repeat I felt something Break off my heart, it felt like a seal and I felt the holy spirit leave out right afterwards. At the time it happened I didn't even know I had a seal or that I was even in a battle. So it took me days to process and figure it out. I later learned my hippy family were luciferian. I knew nothing about evil. Not really. As my abusers put it. I was like a child walking into a freeway.

 

[Genxshipwreck]

It's called spiritual warfare and yes Satan is actually trying to kill you and hates you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The good news is that, there are many times in scripture we read a well known promise. God says he will not leave you nor forsake you. I have come to learn this is true.

Then why do you think that a believer can lose salvation??

Several times I thought and felt it's too late for me because I messed up too bad. And I did mess up too bad but God showed me many different ways He means what he says. He's a God that will always help you. Sometimes I have really had to strive for his help by fasting, praying, studying etc but several times I was giving up he showed up to my surprise. So we can on our own mess things up pretty bad. Hurting mainly ourselves and making our walk much more difficult than it needed to be. Also unfortunately we are able to hurt God, make him very jealous, greive God and cause him sorrow. No matter the topic I'm straight forward and am answering right now from life experience, mistakes, my relationship with Christ and according to scripture. I apologize I have not yet posted any scripture. I am not feeling well and look forward to discuss topics in the future I can add reference to scripture. So yes we can really get destroyed by sin and disobedience but my hope is in Jesus and he hasn't stopped helping me even though I am shipwrecked. God is merciful so I keep moving forward but today I am feeling so guilty for falling off the narrow path. It's frustrating.

Yes, your screen name communicates all this.