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Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. Revelation 19:11

  2. Revelation 20:9

  3. Not really sure right now

  4. Other [please explain]

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  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Did you not know there is a HUGE difference in something moving and something disappearing?
     
  2. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    So your argument is that, in revelation 6, heaven departs (motion) but does not disappear? Or that the mountains and islands, in revelation 6, are removed (motion) from its place, but that means only shifted over?
    Revelation 6:14 The heaven departed like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    So when Jesus removes the lampstand from its place, he only shifts it over a few inches or even a foot, right? It doesn't actually "disappear" from their presence, right?
    Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

     
  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    What really moves at the 6th seal?
    "every mountain and island were moved out of their places"

    Did you know that every mountain and island moved out of their place in that terrible earthquake and tsunami that hit Japan? The axis of earth moved slightly which moved every mountain slightly. This earthquake at the 6th seal is going to be a worldwide earthquake.

    As for the heavens departing as a scroll, I don't think anyone really knows what John is meaning. Stars are seen after this.

    On the other hand, at the great white throne, the earth and heavens disappear - never to be seen again. God will create a NEW heaven and earth.
     
  4. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    The heaven departs and every mountain and island moves. So it is heaven, mountains, islands that move.

    However, you didn't address my previous point, so I will restate it more clearly:

    Revelation 2:5 and 6:14 contain the same Greek words for "remove" and "out of its place". If you are going to be consistent with you interpretation of the Greek language and context in Revelation, then it also appears you believe that if the Church did not repent, Jesus would just shift the lampstand over a few inches/feet, correct?

    Revelation 2:5 If you do not repent, I will come to you and REMOVE your lampstand OUT OF ITS place
    Revelation 6:14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was OUT OF ITS place REMOVED

    I think it's possible, that we might be able to agree that it refers to the Olivet discourse, just prior to the coming of the son of Man?

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken

    Revelation 6:12-14 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens departed like a scroll being rolled up,



    When you driving a car, and the car is moving, you are moving. However, are you removed out of your seat when you are driving? No

    Japan's earthquake caused the earth's axis to shift slightly. The earth moved slightly and everything moved together as a person who moves when they are driving a car, however, not every island and mountain moved out of its "seat". Japan's shore did shift by about 8 feet or so, but not EVERY island and mountain moved out of its place. There is no evidence of that.



    The mountains also "disappear" in revelation 16.
    Revelation 16:20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.
     
  5. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    What do you think? If God plans to move a church (Candlestick) does he mean to have the church move to a new building? Or does He mean that church (as a distinct congregation) will just end up dying and disappear?

    So you tell me: What does God mean about moving mountains out of their places? I KNOW they don't just disappear, because at the 7th vial there are STILL mountains.

    You have a very serious problem. Do you not understand a scroll that is sealed with seals to keep it from being opened until only a certain or kind of person can be found worthy to open the seals?

    The book (scroll) cannot be opened until all seals are opened. Period and end of story. If you can't agree to this we have no reason to continue.

    Now, when or where in Revelation does the book get opened? Do you not realize that the 70th week is what is written INSIDE the book? In other words, if no one is found worthy, no 70th week. And if no 70th week, then NO 7th trumpet. And if no 7th trumpet, then Satan remains the god of the world forever.

    Remember, the book CANNOT be opened to reveal the 70th week until all 7 seals are opened. Are you getting this picture? In other words, NO DAYS OF Great Tribulation can come until all 7 seals are opened. Then, of no one was ever found worthy to break the seals, Jesus could not return to earth - for He comes AFTER the days of GT.

    Most of the book of Revelation (to happen or come to pass) is dependent on SOMEONE to be found worthy to take the book and open the seals. Thank God, Jesus was found worthy! I am quite sure, the devil was sure NO ONE would ever be found that could escape out of hell with His OWN power - but Jesus did.

    Therefore (meaning after all the above) at the time of the 6th seal, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE that the days of great tribulation have already passed. Do you understand impossible? After the 6th seal, the 7th must be opened, and after that, the BOOK is opened to reveal the trumpet judgments.

    There can be no mixing of trumpets and vials , because this book is a SCROLL, and as it is unrolled the TRUMPETS are revealed first. Finally, and the scroll is unrolled enough the 7th trumpet comes that ends the rule of Satan on earth.

    But God keeps unrolling the scroll, and the BEast and False prophet show up, and the days of GT begin to happen. (By this time the other end of the scroll is rolled up because the trumpets are history.) What is visible on the book now are the days of GT. And soon after the 7th vial that ends the week. the scroll is finished: the 70th week has ended.

    Perhaps the scroll or book includes the destruction of Babylon and Christ's return.

    In the end, God is well able to move mountains, or put them back, for that matter. What God CANNOT do is change His word. He told us there was a book sealed with 7 seals. This book forms the basis for much of Revelation.

    "I think it's possible, that we might be able to agree that it refers to the Olivet discourse, just prior to the coming of the son of Man?"

    No, because of the above, the book sealed and then unrolled, something in the seals may LOOK like something towards the end, but it is impossible they are speaking of the same event - just plain impossible.

    Again, you are trying to compare a seal protecting a book from something INSIDE the book. It just does not work.
     
  6. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    1.) you side stepped my question again
    2.) lots of opinion in here with no supporting scripture

    Again, you have not supported your conclusions with scripture. Instead of your opinions, I will stick with scripture:

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken

    Revelation 6:12-14 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens departed like a scroll being rolled up,
     
  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    See my new thread on the signs. The bible is the support - but it must be in context and correctly understood.
    Do you DOUBT the book that had seven seals?
    Do you DOUBT that the book is not empty but has very valuable words written in it? Do you doubt that one day all the seals will be opened?
     
  8. Zimrath

    Zimrath New Member

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    Revelation 2:5 and 6:14 contain the same Greek words for "remove" and "out of its place". If you are going to be consistent with you interpretation of the Greek language and context in Revelation, then it also appears you believe that if the Church did not repent, Jesus would just shift the lampstand over a few inches/feet, correct?

    I looked up the Hebrew Mittityahu (Matthew), yes there is a Hebrew Book of Matthew that has been discovered, but still being authenticated. So, I will state in Hebrew language what the word used in Ancient, Paleo Hebrew means, since Yahusha Messiah was Jewish by birth and spoke tha language of the Yahudim (tribe of Judah), which was Hebrew. Granted He spoke more than one language, but Hebrew, not modern, but Paleo Hebrew was the language used in His time. I found this:


    Hagah: Hebrew; to remove
    Original Word: הָגָה

    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: hagah
    Phonetic Spelling: (haw-gaw')
    Definition: to remove

    What about this passage:
    2 Peter 3:10
    But the day of the Yahuah will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire, and the earth and its works will not be found.
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Paul said our works would be tried by fire. But I don't see how the earth will be destroyed completely until after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Will that still be "the day of the Lord?"
     
  10. Zimrath

    Zimrath New Member

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    Shalom (Hello),

    I can see this question too. It can be very metaphorical, or it could at times be descriptive of the woe mankind will see.

    If you hear someone speaking a language you’ve never heard before, you would still recognize the sounds coming out of his mouth as speech. In the stranger’s language, you may perceive a word here and there that sound like words in your own language. Not only might these words mean different things to the two of you, that particular set of syllables might mean the exact opposite to each of you! For example, to table a discussion in American English means to put it aside, while in British English, it means to deal with it. Or perhaps you are familiar with the “he means she” phenomenon in which Hebrew pronouns pronounced “me,” “who” and “he” translate into English as “who,” “he” and “she,” respectively.

    This is what many people (myself included), experience when reading the words of the prophets. They either don’t understand their words at all or they completely misconstrue them. Regarding the former, Isaiah refers to it as being “like the words of a book that is sealed” (Is. 29:11). Regarding the latter, Jeremiah says, “You have perverted the words of the living Alahim (G-d”), (Jer. 23:36). Every prophet was an individual. They lived in different times and places so, as would be expected, each had his own unique style. The prophets each communicated their messages using their own manner of speech, a fact that must be taken into account in order to understand their words.

    In The Besorah Natsarim it says in Yashayahu (Isaiah) 24:1-6
    "See, Yahuah is making the arets (earth) empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. And it shall be-as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant, so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender, so with the borrower, as with the creditor, so with the debtor,the arets (earth) is completely emptied, and utterly plundered, for Yahuah has spoken this word.

    4 The arets (earth) shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the arets shall languish.
    5 For the arets (earth) has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed The Turah (Torah, Old Covenant), changed the law, broken the everlasting Covenant.
    6 Therefore, a curse shall consume the arets (earth), and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the arets shall be burned, and few men shall be left...
    20 The arets shall stagger like a drunkard, and it shall totter like a hut, and its transgression shall be heavy upon it. More descriptive words used are "utterly broken, completely shattered, fiercely shaken. it shall fall and not rise again."

    I pray we are all changed to the spirit and taken up to be with Him and Messiah before this happens. Thank you for responding, it really helps for iron to sharpen iron.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    No, I doubt YOUR interpretation as you are not supporting your statements with scripture.
     
  12. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I write what John wrote. My interpretation comes straight from what is written. You know all the pertinent scriptures.

    I see how you work: when you find the same work in two scriptures, then you declare to all they are talking about the same thing!
    Do you ever study the Greek behind the English words? You will find the Greek in Matthew 24 uses different Greek words for "darkened." they are two different words with different meanings. Sackcloth would appear like a black haired goat. That is what they used to make sackcloth. It is not the absence of light - it is just dark. In Matthew 24, it is the absence of light. And again the MOON is different. People SEE a blood moon, but cannot see a darkened moon.

    You imagine they are the same, without any real study. You ignore timing and then are forced to rearrange Revelation to fit.

    Do you realize, if you understand these as TWO DIFFERENT signs coming a two different times, then Revelation will need no rearranging?
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    You wrote your interpretation of what John wrote without backing it up actual scripture from revelation.
    I could say the same thing about my interpretation, which directly contradicts yours. The difference is that I provide supporting scripture, while you did not.
    Apparently not, because I have no idea what you are basing your statements on.

    I try to provide, if possible, a minimum of 2 supporting scriptures to my statements if the topic is ambiguous, controversial, or apocalyptic. I use the same principle as Deuteronomy 19:15. Revelation is only 1 witness, it needs to be supported with more witnesses. Luckily we have a plethora of scripture from the OT and NT to witness along with Revelation
    Deuteronomy 19:15 “A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.

    When you make an interpretation about apocalyptic language and provide no witness to support you claim, it is not sufficient. You did not even support your statements with chapters or verses, thus your opinions are not sufficient. Adding supporting scripture to your statements definitely makes them more credible, then the reader can understand where you are coming from.

    So your argument is that because revelation 6 and Matthew 24 are not word for word that they are about completely different events? I disagree with that interpretation method.


    This is subjective, I could say the same about you. let's stick to objective arguments.

     
  14. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I know you are so much better at proving things. But as I said, I just write what John wrote.

    As an example, in Rev. 5 we see Jesus suddenly appearing in the throne room, where He was NOT a moment before. And at that moment John wrote that the Holy Spirit was sent down. John is showing us a 32 AD timing.

    To back this timing up, John saw a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Why? The reason is clear, Jesus was not at that moment in time worthy. NO ONE was. But time passed while John wept much, and suddenly Jesus WAS found worthy.

    What then is John showing us? The MOVEMENT of time - from a time when NO MAN was found, to the time Jesus was found.

    So the question John did NOT ASK: WHY was Jesus not found in that first search? Here I will answer with no scripture, for John did not tell us in so many words: He was not found worthy in that first search because He had not yet risen from the dead.

    Since these things are written in no other place in the bible, we have to take John at His word.

    Your example from Deut. does not fit. We are not talking about murder or any other crime. Fact it: many times things are written only ONCE in the bible. In such cases it is silly to demand supporting scripture.

    Since this is truth, then we must determine what chapters 4 and 5 are telling us from the scriptures in chapters 4 & 5.

    Now, if you have a different idea about these two chapters, let's discuss these points. I say John is clear in showing us it is a vision of the past, a time before Jesus rose from the dead, up to the very time He arose, and then ascended.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus Christ is, and always was 100% God.

    Your claim above goes against everything we know about Christ.

    There has never been a time in the history of the universe when He was not worthy.


    .
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You did not understand the question, so of course came up with a bogus answer.

    The truth is, before Jesus was found worthy TO OPEN THE SEALS, he had to first die and then rise from the dead. All you have to do is READ: the first search John watched ended in failure, meaning NO MAN WAS FOUND - meaning, Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. You were simply on a different page of a different thread - apparently.
     
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The passage shows your viewpoint to be in error.

    The text is treating "the Lamb" differently than ordinary men, and is comparing ordinary men to Christ.

    Any unbiased witness can see this, by comparing verse 4 to verse 5.



    Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
    Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
    Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
    Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
    Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
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