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Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. Revelation 19:11

  2. Revelation 20:9

  3. Not really sure right now

  4. Other [please explain]

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  1. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Most of the time Paul's conflict with "the world" is with Judaism. If you look at the gospel of John, it is the only option; there is little interaction with people outside Judaism, and many times it is with its leaders.

    This puts a lot of the NT in a different light than most people think.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    So are you saying Revelation is primarily for the Jews, more so than gentiles?
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mat 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    .

    Both of these passages are describing "the Day of the Lord", found in numerous Old Testament and New Testament passages.

    Do a search on "day of the Lord" using a program like Esword, which is free online.

    Check out the descriptions of the Day of the Lord in 1st Thess. chapter 5 and 2nd Peter 3:10.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    A search like that will reveal there have been multiple day of the lord events in Israels History.
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

    H259

    אחד

    'echâd

    ekh-awd'

    A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

    .
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that they used them all up at the DofJ?

    Will there be a Parousia showing in Our History?
     
  7. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Not necessarily. but the DoJ was Definitely a Day of the Lord event, and was indeed the "soon coming" Day of the Lord the Apostles warned their contemporaries to watch and be ready for.

    What do you mean by our history? do you mean Our contemporary generation, or does "our history" extend forward into the next millennia in your view?

    We Catholics testify that the Eucharist itself is the parousia, for example.. so it happens everyday already....

    But to be specific, I have no idea when the future to us Creedal consummation will be. God has kept that a secret, not revealing the timing or details of that future event to men (Deuteronomy 29:29)
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2015
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    How does this negate the past day of the lord events the Bible testifies about?
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I have spent some time looking at scripture searches of the term "day of the Lord" in the Old and New Testament.

    If you could give us the events in the past that you consider to be "day of the Lord" events, maybe we could discuss them.

    .
     
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  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Sure thing.

    The desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians was a past "Day of the Lord." After it happened, the prophet Jeremiah tells us:

    Lamentations 1:12
    behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow, which is done unto me, wherewith the LORD hath afflicted me in the day of his fierce anger.

    Lamentations 2:1
    How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger

    Lamentations 2:21
    The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed, and not pitied.

    Lamentations 2:22
    Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor remained


    Note also that it was God who did the killing! Did anyone SEE Jehovah kill people? Was the prophet lying? Of course not. This is how the prophets spoke.

    Furthermore, Ezekiel had foretold of this same Day of the Lord against Jerusalem which took place in the 500s BC, saying:

    Ezekiel 7:19
    They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of Jehovah: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

    And again, Ezekiel says of this same past Day of the Lord...

    Ezekiel 13:2-5
    Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts. Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.

    So, the destruction of Jerusalem in the 500s BC is just one example of MANY past day of the LORD events.
     
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  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Thanks for the list.

    Do you believe there will be one final "day of the Lord" event, at the 2nd Coming of Christ?

    .
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    See my post #28
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is one final "day of the Lord" described by Christ and the other New Testament writers.

    These passages are connected to others by a phrase or similar language.




    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    ................................................................................


    1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    ...............................................................................

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    ...............................................................................

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    .............................................................................

    Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

    Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

    Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

    .
     
  15. Straightshot

    Straightshot Member

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    My comment


    The idea that the "day" [time] of the Lord will be just "one" 24 hour is the song of the post tribulation/amil thinker

    The Day of the Lord for told in past fulfilled prophecy lasted many days, some times years for certain of His intents .... and He next intervention will be the same including not only the days of the coming tribulation, but His millennial kingdom upon the earth .... and next, His eternal kingdom with a reconditioned heaven and earth

    Who would refute this clear teaching of the prophetic scriptures? .... mocking the Lord's intent is not a good idea and this ambition has a root mooring .... do I have to reveal the one who delights in deceptions
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You are correct when you say these passages are "connected to others by similar language" The apostles, being familiar with this apocalyptic prophetic language as it was used in the OT by the prophets to describe God's real world judgments against individual nations at the hand of Human Armies, also used this same language consistently with the intention and meaning of their OT forebearers.

    We have no scriptural instruction to interpret this language of Sun and moon Darkening, Stars Falling, God Riding a Cloud, being "seen" by every eye, earth shaking, Heavens receding, etc...in polar opposite fashion to its usage in the OT.


    Would you agree that This is also "connected" by similar language to this?:

    Revelation 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

    If Rev 3:3 speaks of the same Coming as a thief as 1 Thess 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10, your challenge is to demonstrate how your view aligns with the fact that the Glorified Christ, from Heaven PROMISED this same thief's coming would befall actual 1st century peoples at Sardis.

    Again, all classic OT Apocalyptic phrases that the Prophets used Metaphorically, without fail, every time..

    Can you show the scriptural instruction you have to abandon the metaphoric precedent set by the OT prophets, in favor of the hyper literal interpretation you seem to champion? Where does this shift occur and where does scripture instruct us to make that shift?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    When cut apart as in the few examples you just posted, the answer would be no.

    However, when placed in context with the words of Jesus of His Coming to gather the elect in Matthew chapter 24 and also connecting the famous resurrection passage of 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 to chapter 5, it is my humble opinion that all of these passages show the "parousia", which is the bodily return of Christ.
    The shift occurs where this language is placed in context of the above.

    God's word is like a tapestry. Taking one thread (verse) out of the whole does not reveal much.
    When we look at the whole picture it provides a picture of Christ's Second Coming at the end of the world, to bring in the New Heavens and the New Earth, where sin and death will no longer exist in any form.

    If you think I am claiming to have all the answers, that was not my intention.

    What do you think?
    .
     
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  19. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Revelation 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, AND you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

    He's telling them TWO things that will happen here IF they don't "hold fast and repent"; # 1: He will come upon them "as a thief" AND # 2: they will not know the hour.

    Rev. 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!)

    How could this other "thief" warning, in between the 6th and 7th bowl, be as a surprise to anybody after experiencing most of the events of the Great Tribulation. It can't because it's not a surprise, it's just like in the days of Noah and Lot and the DofJ. What else was going on in the days of Noah, Lot and 1st century Jerusalem? They were living in a time prior to a very large and destructive outpouring of God's wrath.

    Jesus came "as a thief" to the people in the days of Noah and Lot and 1st century Jerusalem.

    John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy."

    And He's due to come again, "like a thief!" during our appointed time of the end.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.​

    Are you sure that it is not your theology that is assuming there was a "metaphoric precedent set by the OT prophets". Are you sure that the OT prophets weren't, in some cases, talking about actual earthquakes and celestial events? What if there really is a literal earthquake on the way that moves literal islands and literal mountains out of their places which will conclude the destruction during our appointed time of the end.

    No, I don't think that Lucifer will appear as a fire breathing Dragon that falls from Heaven. He'll look like a regular guy, it's just that he'll have the ability to make fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people. I can't wait.

    "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
    even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs (winter fruit),
    when she is shaken of a mighty wind"- Rev. 6:13​


    Stars of Heaven = Angels, one for each person saved, both the dead first and then we who remain alive and are left.
    "And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds"
    "and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him"

    Fig Tree = The Commonwealth of Israel or the Israel of God, believers in our Glorious Lord Jesus.
    "Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season"

    Untimely figs = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.
    "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe"

    Its Winter Fruit = Everyone who ever died in Christ, plus a numberless multitude of the living.
    "the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"

    She = His Bride has made herself ready.
    "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb"

    Shaken of a Mighty Wind = The Second coming.
    "And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind"
     
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  20. Berean777

    Berean777 Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

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    Which is why post Pentecost the tabernacle with God is amongst us. The fullness of God dwells in his Holy Temple.

    That is why I choose the following verse.

    The camp of the saints and the beloved city is the tabernacle of God in his body of believers. When there is a world wide martyrdom of the church, it will signal the end for the devil who was imprisoned on his first attempt to destroy the 1st century church in Rev 19:11 where is the original 1st beast and false prophet were used as the flood of people to pursue the pregnant women (church), who was ready to deliver the child (gospel).

    Even when Satan (Prince of this world) comes in flesh Jesus wants believers in the following versus to run away from the abomination that maketh desolate, the prince of this world incarnate in flesh as the earthly messiah.

    This is the brilliant coming of the Lord where he comes as the destroying light to destroy what remains of a dead earth where carcasses are strewn everywhere and the smell of death due to the unburied dead across the globe (North, East, South and West).

    The final trumpet is sounded by the Lord as declared in Rev 10:6 where he says time no longer, the end!

     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
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