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Where is the Parousia of Matt 24 showing in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Jan 9, 2010.

  1. Revelation 19:11

  2. Revelation 20:9

  3. Not really sure right now

  4. Other [please explain]

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  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Active Member

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    Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Revelation 6:14
    "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
     
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    Last edited: Aug 14, 2015
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  4. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Let's assume Revelation 20:9 is meaning His coming in the Discourse. The verse above says----And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about. With that in mind let's now go to Revelation 19.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Let's assume these----the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies...are the ones meant in Revelation 20:9. Revelation 20:9 indicates fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Let's compare that with the following in Revelation 19.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    Does it look like the beast was devoured by fire here, which came down from God out of heaven? Who could be devoured by fire that comes down from God out of heaven, and then still live to tell about it? Does not the text in verse 20 indicate this---These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone? Does it not say they both are still alive when they get cast into the LOF? But how could they be if Revelation 19:19 and Revelation 20:9 are parallel events, and according to the latter all those compassing the camp of the saints are devoured by fire, which would have to include the beast and fp if these are parallel events?
     
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  5. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

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    Rev 6
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Rev 14
    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

    This is the event where all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. It is the beginning of the wrath of God. The 12 tribes are raptured which are spread across the earth. It will be like the days of Lot when destruction occurs the very day Lot left sodom. This will occur at the last trump on the feast of trumpets when the Day of the Lord will not take the believers unaware.

    The pretrib rapture will have already occurred prior to the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. It will be a secret rapture when we will not know when the bridegroom will come. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. It will occur at the trump of God. The ark door will be closed at His coming.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
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  6. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

    Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles. The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.


    Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner



    .
     
  7. Choose Wisely

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    Once a person comes to understand that the Israel has been reborn as a nation, the false doctrine of replacement theology quickly falls apart. Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church.

    Israel will be regrafted into the Olive Tree as proclaimed in the Word.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You have replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

    You have replaced the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

    You have replaced the word "so", with the word "then" in Romans 11:26.

    If you think modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, you are promoting one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church. (Galatians 1:6-9)


    .
     
  9. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

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    Why do you keep babbling this nonsense? Please produce one post that shows where I said that there is salvation without faith in Jesus the Christ.

    Acts 4
    10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
    11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
    12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Psalms 118
    22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

    Please copy and paste your standard response.
     
  10. Inkfingers

    Inkfingers Somebody's heretic Supporter

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  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The "Church" is made up of those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ.

    By its very definition the "Church" or "Body of Christ" cannot be separated from anyone who places their faith in Christ.


    Since the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20 the claims that the "Church Age" comes to an end before the Second Coming is in error.



    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Those in the verse above who are under the blood of the Lamb must by definition be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


    .
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Devoured by fire, fire cast upon the land....repent!

    Zephaniah 1:18
    Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the LORD's wrath;
    But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy,
    For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.
    3:8
    “Therefore wait for Me,” declares the LORD,
    “For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
    To assemble kingdoms, To pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger;
    For all the land will be devoured By the fire of My zeal.

    And there is this verse

    Luke 12:49
    Fire I came to be casting upon the Land and any I am willing if already it was kindled.

    2 Peter 3:7
    But by His word the present heavens and land are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    Is that the Golden Altar of Incense here?

    Revelation 8
    3 And another Messenger came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer;
    and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
    5 And the Messenger has taken the franckincensor, and he crams-full it out of the Fire of the Altar.
    And he casts it into the Land

    and became thunders and sounds and lightnings and quaking

    Same words used concerning the destruction of OC Jerusalem, it's Temple and the Sanctuary

    Revelation 18:13
    and cinnamon, and incense, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and cattle, and sheep, and of horses, and of chariots, and of bodies and souls of men.
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    So the 12 tribes are raptured 1st?
    .
    Not sure what you mean by "secret rapture"?
    .
     
  14. Choose Wisely

    Choose Wisely Forgiven Supporter

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    No, the Gentiles are raptured first in the secret pretribulation rapture. After that happens the seals are opened which are the same thing as Matthew 24.

    The secret rapture is when Christ is behind the lattice. No one sees the coming except the bride. The door is closed and the seals are opened. The church is gone and strong delusion is given as to the reason. The fullness of the Gentiles has come in and God turns his attention to Israel.
    Then there are 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes that become the first fruits of the second harvest. The fig tree has two harvests.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on the passage below, "the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" at the future Second Coming of Christ.


    Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

    .
     
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  16. Choose Wisely

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    There is a difference between the fullness of the Gentiles and the times of the Gentiles as I would guess you already know. We both know you are not interested in the truth......only your false and failed doctrine.
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Interesting. Let's take a gander at that:

    First my bro Ezekiel:

    Ezekiel 30:
    1 And a word of Yahweh is coming to me to say of:
    2 "Son of adam! prophesy thou! and thou say,
    'Thus says my Lord Yahweh: 'Wail ye! 'Woe! for Day!'
    3 that near Day, and near Day of Yahweh,
    a Day of cloud, Time/`ethעֵת (`eth) <06256> of Nations shall become.

    Then my bro Daniel:

    Daniel 11
    :
    35 And some of the teachers do stumble for refining by them, and for purifying, and for making white — till the end of the Time/`ethעֵת (`eth) <06256>,
    for [it is] yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 12:
    9 And he saith, ‘Go, Daniel; for hidden and sealed [are] the things till the Time/`ethעֵת (`eth) <06256> of the end;
    10 Purify themselves, yea, make themselves white, yea, refined are many: and the wicked have done wickedly, and none of the wicked understand, and those acting wisely do understand;

    2540. kairos kahee-ros' of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:--X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare 5550.

    And my bro Luke:

    Luke 21:24
    "And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations. And Jerusalem shall be being trampled/pathsousin <3961> (5692) by nations until which may be being fulfilled/plhrwqwsin <4137> (5686) Times/καιρός (kairos)<2540> of nations
    [Ezekiel 30:1/Daniel 12/Revelation 11:2/ 13:10]

    And my bro Paul:

    Romans 11:25
    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret -- that ye may not be wise in your own conceits -- that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fullness/πλήρωμα (plērōma)<4138> of the nations may come in;

    And finally, my bro John:

    The phrase "the time is nigh" is repeated 2 times in Revelation:

    Revelation 1:3
    Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been Written,
    For the Time/καιρός (kairos)<2540> Is-nigh/egguV <1451>.

    Revelation 22:10
    And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
    For the Time/καιρός (kairos)<2540> Is-nigh/egguV <1451>
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    So you are saying Reve 6:14 is the 2nd coming/parousia?
    Interesting
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Here are the voting results so far.:
    [I voted "not sure"]


    Parousia of Matt 24 and Revelation question
    1. Revelation 19:11
      8 vote(s)
      38.1%
    2. Revelation 20:9
      2 vote(s)
      9.5%
    3. *
      Not really sure right now
      2 vote(s)
      9.5%
    4. Other [please explain]
      9 vote(s)
      42.9%
    Here is Matthew 24 showing the word "parousia":

    Matthew 24
    3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own saying, be telling to-us!
    when shall these be?
    and what? the sign Thy parousiaV <3952>
    and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age<165>?'

    27 for even as the lightning<796> comes-out from risings/east<395>, and is appearing till of west<1424>,
    thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
    37 For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
    39 and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted<142> all away.
    Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    No wonder some of us can't find a Pretrib rapture in the Bible, it's a secret, apparently.
     
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