Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[keras]

Romans 1125 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Jews are of the House of Judah. The House of Israel is now the Christian peoples, the one Jesus came to save. Matthew 15:24

You fail Bible knowledge basics.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 11:15-19, does not say Jesus will have Returned when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. It is a preview of that glorious event.
Proved by how the 7 Bowls must be fulfilled before then. Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

The 7th vial is the earthquake in Revelation 11:12-13.

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake."

"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake."

Seems they resurrected about 11 to 12 hours before the battle of Armageddon. Enough time for all in the area of Jerusalem to get out of the city and set up defensive positions at mount Megiddo in the valley of decision. Along with other armies who had been coming since the 6th vial was poured out the day before. The 2 witnesses would have risen early on a Sunday morning at dawn. Armageddon would be from 5pm to 6pm. Monday is the first day of the Millennial Kingdom.

The 2 witnesses are removed before Armageddon. Those beheaded are resurrected after, in the evening that would be considered Monday. Their ongoing judgments before thrones would happen throughout the night. They do not ascend, as they never leave the earth like the 2 witnesses. They are still dead until after Satan is bound in the pit.

Armageddon is not the Second Coming, and the 2 witnesses are not the church being raptured per Paul. Those beheaded are not redeemed until the point they stand as souls and are judged, and then they are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies, which is the first resurrection, thus their redemption. They are not the church either. They are the only reason the third woe is allowed to happen.

The 7th Trumpet declared time was up 42 months earlier, but the third woe split the week of the 7th Trumpet into 2 halves. That is the point of Daniel 9:27. Daniel 9:27 is not 7 years. It is 7 days. Jesus is King for 3.5 days, then hands over the kingdom to Satan. 42 months later the 2 witnesses are killed and those 3.5 days are the last half of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

The first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders sound before the 7th Trumpet sounds. The 2 witnesses are part of the 3rd woe, but their parenthetical explanation is given before John writes about the 7th Trumpet, and the third woe is the parenthetical in chapter 13.

Both parentheticals only happen if the week is split in half. Otherwise it will be a normal 7 days, and then the Millennial Kingdom will start.

Matthew 24:15 is not a false prophecy. It is a warning that when people see it, after the 7th Trumpet sounds, they are to flee Jerusalem and the surrounding area, because the 3rd woe will make life really really bad. The AoD is the last event prior to the end. It is not a first event after the end.

The 7th Trumpet announces the end. But the end is not when the 7th Trumpet starts. The end is when the 7th Trumpet stops.

"that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

There should be time no longer, but there may be more time, if God extends time for those who will choose to be beheaded. God confirms the Atonement Covenant with the many after the 7th Trumpet sounds, to see if any more will remain elect by their testimony of chopping their head off.

Those 42 months of the Gentiles trampling the Temple are not the last half of anything. It is time extended by the grace and longsuffering mercy of God. Satan on the other hand and the AoD are the 3rd woe.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John is not taking a break from writing what he saw and heard. Interlude is the wrong description. It is better to say the text of Revelation 6-21 does not follow a strict chronological unbroken timeline of events. The timeline of events must be deciphered by the reader. i.e. succeed in understanding, interpreting, identifying.

We were not discussing Revelation 7 anyway, but Revelation 11 over which half of the 7 years the two witnesses 1260 days will be, first or second.

Doug, an interlude is not John taking a break. It's a non-sequitur, per definition #3: Any abrupt and inexplicable transition or occurrence.

Rev 7:14 is about the GM, after they are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4, appearing in Heaven, after coming out of the GT. Doug, how is that possible in a Bible chapter as early in Revelation as chapter 7, to be discussing a moment in the GT? You are denying the obvious.

 

[Timtofly]

The 7th trumpet belongs in Rev 9.

Technically, the 7th Trumpet is after the 7 Thunders in Revelation 10. Revelation 10:5 through Revelation 11:13 is a parenthetical about events after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

John starts describing events related to the 7th Trumpet, but waits until Revelation 11:14 to get back into a chronological narrative after the 7 Thunders.

The Thunders are not a parenthetical. John never wrote them down, because he was told to stop writing about them.

The 7 Thunders have to be completed between the 6th and 7th Trumpets, because they cannot happen after the 7th Trumpet. They do not happen during any of the Trumpets. They are their own set of events that are hidden from us. They do not pertain to the church, nor to Israel. But they do happen.

These events would correspond to Matthew 13 and the Gentile harvest of the wheat and tares. Matthew 13 can only fit during this period on earth. Many more humans will be removed during the 7 Thunders by the angels, just like during the first 6 Trumpets.

The 7th Trumpet would declare the final harvest is complete as that is part of the mystery given in the OT. The 7 Thunders remain a mystery until they actually happen. Except for the explanation given in Matthew 13.

 

[Timtofly]

No that is not what the "And" means. It means "in addition to what I just informed you of". It is not saying that the forty months of the gentiles trampling down Jerusalem and the 1260 days of the two witnesses prophesying coincide with each other.

There is no "And" in verse 14. Verse 14 is not a continuation of the former narrative.

Verse 14 is getting us back on track to a different narrative, than in the first 13 verses. The second woe is not in that chapter, nor will happen after the 7th Trumpet.

The 2nd woe happened before the 7 Thunders in Revelation 10.

The 7th Thunder happened and the very next event is the 7th Trumpet.

The 6th Trumpet and 2nd woe was way in the past before the 7 Thunders.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The third woe is not the 7th Trumpet. None of the woes were actual Trumpet events.

So, you've never read this?

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

In verse 13, after the angel sounded the 4th trumpet, it says "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!". That means the three woes were being directly related to the last 3 trumpets that were yet to sound, which were obviously the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets. So, the 1st woe correlates with the 5th trumpet, the 2nd woe correlates with the 6th trumpet and the 3rd woe correlates with the 7th trumpet. Very simple to see this if you actually read the text.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Revelation 11:15-19 is the reaction in heaven when the seventh angel sound his trumpet. The reaction is that them in heaven are rejoicing.

Did you not even read those verses? They talk about what will happen at that point when the seventh angels sounds his trumpet.

Take the time to actually read the text if you want to understand the truth. Otherwise, don't.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

So, here is the list of things that will happen and will become true at the seventh trumpet:

• The mystery of God will be finished.
• The kingdom(s) of this world will become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and of His Son Jesus Christ.
• The 24 elders will fall on their faces and worship God and give Him thanks.
• God's wrath will come.
• The dead will be judged.
• God will reward His people.
• Those who destroy the earth will be destroyed.

You only mention them in heaven rejoicing at that point, but there's clearly a lot more than that which happens at the seventh trumpet that you somehow either ignored or missed. There is no other description of what happens at the seventh trumpet than this.

The actual third woe to the inhabiters of the earth event is Revelation 12:12

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Wrong. Do you deny that the seventh trumpet is the third woe even though Revelation 8:12-13 indicates that the three woes relate to the last 3 trumpets?

Again, the description of what will happen and what will be true once the seventh angel sounds his trumpet is described in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-19. Revelation 12:12 has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet. You see the word woe there and decide to relate it to the seventh trumpet. You can make scripture say anything you want to say by interpreting scripture like that. The description of the seventh trumpet/third woe is obviously described in Revelation 11:15-18, so there's no reason to look elsewhere to see what will happen when the seventh trumpet sounds.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are making excuses for your lack of effort.

LOL! Stop being foolish, Douggg. I am able to communicate just fine without charts, so don't give me this nonsense. No one needs to create timeline charts when discussing scripture. Scripture itself does not have charts. So, don't give me this nonsense that I'm making excuses. I don't need any excuse to not do something that isn't necessary.

The third woe event lasting a time, time, half - does that end the day that Jesus returns on the last day of the 7 years ?

This question doesn't even make any sense to me. The third woe event does not last a time, times and half a time. The third woe is the seventh trumpet (the 3 woes are the last 3 trumpets - Rev 8:12-13) and that is described in Revelation 11:15-18.

If so, in your view that would put the second woe killing of a 1/3 of mankind in the first half of the 7 years.

I don't even believe in that literal 7 years nonsense, so you're arguing with a strawman here. Such a waste of time.

And the first woe 5 months of the tormenting locust be before the killing of a 1/3 of mankind time frame.

And since it is the fifth trumpet sounding that leads to 5 months of the tormenting locust - the first four trumpets, in your view would take place before then.

So you have 6 of the 7 trumpet events in the first half of the 7 years. Not rational.

Again, you're arguing with a strawman. I've never said that I view the time periods in Revelation as being literal. In fact, I've specifically told you multiple times that I don't believe they are literal. So, stop wasting your time arguing with a strawman. It's time that you can't get back.

And your notion that the Daniel 12:11-12 time of the end abomination of desolation was back in 70 ad is not biblical because 70 ad was not time of the end.

I didn't even mention Daniel 12:11-12. I'm talking about Matthew 24:15-22 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24) which I believe refers to Daniel 9:26-27.

 

[Douggg]

Again, you're arguing with a strawman. I've never said that I view the time periods in Revelation as being literal. In fact, I've specifically told you multiple times that I don't believe they are literal. So, stop wasting your time arguing with a strawman. It's time that you can't get back.

I don't recall everyone's personal beliefs. I interact with many many posters in discussions regarding the end times.

A time line cannot be made unless the time frames are taken literally. There are a few exceptions, the "one hour" in Revelation 17:12 for example.

These are all of the end times time frames that are literal.

 

[Douggg]

LOL! Stop being foolish, Douggg. I am able to communicate just fine without charts, so don't give me this nonsense. No one needs to create timeline charts when discussing scripture. Scripture itself does not have charts. So, don't give me this nonsense that I'm making excuses. I don't need any excuse to not do something that isn't necessary.

You are not communicating that you understand how the events take place relevant to each other, and when during the 7 years that precede Jesus's return.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't recall everyone's personal beliefs.

You should recall what someone who you have talked to many times believes. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time making strawman arguments. You shouldn't assume that everyone believes the same as you when it comes to the time periods referenced in Revelation.

A time line cannot be made unless the time frames are taken literally. There are a few exceptions the "one hour" in Revelation 17:12.

LOL. Somehow, there is just one exception that you call "a few exceptions". Your interpretive method seems to be rather selective. Why would there be any exceptions? In my view the time periods are all figurative without exception.

These are all of the end times time frames that are literal.

No, they are not. You end up forcing scriptures into your timeline that don't belong there because of your literal method of interpretation. Such as trying to force Revelation 12:12 into the description of the seventh trumpet where it doesn't belong.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are not communicating that you understand how the events take place relevant to each other, and when during the 7 years that precede Jesus's return.

I don't have the same understanding of the time periods referenced in Revelation as you do. I don't see Revelation as just being about a 7 year period of time before Jesus comes again. The book of Revelation has things about the past, the present (as of the time the book was written) and things that would happen after that up until Jesus returns.

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

But, you think the book is only about the future, which is a big mistke on your part. You are apparently unable to understand what anyone else believes, so it makes it rather pointless for anyone to try to have a discussion with you.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 1-13, includes the first half of the 1260 days of the two witnesses. During which, the trumpet plagues do not take place.

The trumpet plagues do not begin until the the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath - when he and his angels have been cast down to earth. Babylon the great has fallen has fallen - to earth - and on earth when the trumpets and vials take place.



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No, nothing in Revelation 11 is parenthetical.

The earthquake in Jerusalem is not the global earthquake of the 7th vial. (see my chart above). The 6th trumpet woe is the killing of a 1/3 of mankind as the 200,000,000 size armies are on their way to Armageddon. (also on the chart).

The trumpets and vials do not take place until after Satan and his angels are cast down to earth - and after the two witnesses are gone.

This is all your personal imagination.

God does not judge the earth one time during Satan's 42 months.

Those 42 months are part of the third woe.

There is no verse in the entire book that says the third woe contains all of the Trumpets.

Do you not understand what the "past" means?

"The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The second woe cannot happen after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Revelation 9:12

"One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The woes happen after each other. One cannot start until a later point in time. The 3rd woe is not before the 1st Trumpet nor the 1st woe.

It does not matter how many PHD's one has. They are wrong if they think the other 2 woes happen after or during the 3rd woe. They are denying or outright contradicting God's Word

 

[Timtofly]

You were questioning where I got the notation of "one year of God's wrath" on my chart. I replied..."One of the posters here cited a passage in the old testament about God's wrath lasting one year."

I wish I could remember the passage. I should have wrote it down. Or maybe even noted it on my chart. I am trying to find the passage. No success so far. I have not forgotten about your comment.



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Isaiah 34, 61, or 63.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 12:12 has nothing to do with the seventh trumpet. You see the word woe there and decide to relate it to the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 12:12 has not just the word "woe"in it, but...the full phrase "woe to the inhabiters of the earth".

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Douggg]

It does not matter how many PHD's one has. They are wrong if they think the other 2 woes happen after or during the 3rd woe. They are denying or outright contradicting God's Word

It is not that the first two woes happen after the third woe. But that the first two woes happen "within" the time span of the third woe.


Third woe begins.................the first woe takes place.......... then the second woe takes place........... the third woe ends.

Third woe begins...............................................time/times/half time...................................................................the third woe ends.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 1-13, includes the first half of the 1260 days of the two witnesses. During which, the trumpet plagues do not take place.

The trumpet plagues do not begin until the the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath - when he and his angels have been cast down to earth. Babylon the great has fallen has fallen - to earth - and on earth when the trumpets and vials take place.



View attachment 357325


No, nothing in Revelation 11 is parenthetical.

The earthquake in Jerusalem is not the global earthquake of the 7th vial. (see my chart above). The 6th trumpet woe is the killing of a 1/3 of mankind as the 200,000,000 size armies are on their way to Armageddon. (also on the chart).

The trumpets and vials do not take place until after Satan and his angels are cast down to earth - and after the two witnesses are gone.

Tell me how the authority given In Rev 11:3, which occurs before the midpoint AND is stated in future tense, means the 2W start from day 1 of the Trib, which is now history as those first 1,260 days have, upon Rev 11:3, already passed?

 

[Douggg]

Isaiah 34, 61, or 63.

I couldn't find "one year of God wrath" phase in any of those chapters.

It might have been over at another Christian forum where the discussion took place.

Thanks for trying, anyway.

 

[Douggg]

Tell me how the authority given In Rev 11:3, which occurs before the midpoint AND is stated in future tense, means the 2W start from day 1 of the Trib, which is now history as those first 1,260 days have, upon Rev 11:3, already passed?

I don't understand what you are saying. Their 1260 days of prophesying and testifying are from day 1 to day 1260.

btw, the ESV's wording of "authority" in Revelation 11:3 is misleading. Just as is your use of the word "Trib" instead of "7 years" or "70th week".

The kjv is more clear. God empowers the two witnesses.

Revelatlion 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't understand what you are saying. Their 1260 days of prophesying and testifying are from day 1 to day 1260.

btw, the ESV's wording of "authority" in Revelation 11:3 is misleading. Just as is your use of the word "Trib" instead of "7 years" or "70th week".

The kjv is more clear. God empowers the two witnesses.

Revelatlion 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I don't understand what you are saying. Their 1260 days of prophesying and testifying are from day 1 to day 1260.

btw, the ESV's wording of "authority" in Revelation 11:3 is misleading. Just as is your use of the word "Trib" instead of "7 years" or "70th week".

The kjv is more clear. God empowers the two witnesses.

Revelatlion 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Doug, how does the authority given in Rev 11:3 -- in FUTURE tense -- say the 2W start at day 1 of the Trib? The future tense applies to the future, not the past. That authority is given shortly before the midpoint. The future tense means the 2W start shortly after that authority.

Elijah is one of the 2W. He will show up shortly before the midpoint. Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Where does it say the 2W start on day 1 of the Trib, when their authority to start comes just before the midpoint? The 1,260 days are not numbered. They are a unit of time, not a static length. They start at Matt 24:14 (NLT): And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.