Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Douggg]

The 42 months in Rev 11:2 and the 1,260 days in Rev 11:3 are mentioned as future events that occur together. Rev 11:3 starts with "And."

No, that is not what the "And" means. The "And" is denoting an ongoing list of events and information that John is reporting.

Go to Revelation 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. the same thing. Most of the verses begin with "And". Something you probably have never noticed before. It is John's style of writing.

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Douggg]

The AoD (Matt 24:15) is referred to because the trampling of the holy city occurs just before the midpoint. That is evidenced by the fleeing in Matt 24:16. The 2W thereby factually start in Matt 24:14.

On my time lien chart, I show the Jews begin fleeing when the AoD, abomination of desolation is setup on day 1185 of the 7 years. It will be near the end of the two witnesses 1260 days.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 13:7 is a good prospect for the beast that rises out of the abyss that eventually kills the 2W. That doesn't mean that the beast finds the 2W quickly. It takes a good while.

The two witnesses will be prophesying in public in Jerusalem. Most likely at the temple mount, Western wall. They will not be hard to find. It will be in the first half of the 7 years, when TV and internet are still in intact. Which is how the nations will know that the two witnesses have been killed on day 1260.

Have you ever had power outages where you live ? Think of what it will be like when the trumpet plagues and the vials of God wrath are poured out in the second half.

Doug, the verses are on my side. Rev 11:7 clearly occurs 1,256.5 days after the 2W start.

The two witnesses testimony ends on day 1260, the last day of the first half. The beast kills them on that day. 3 1/2 days later, they come back to life, ascend to heaven leaving this earth.

Then the earthquake the same hour in Jerusalem.

Then the 7th angel sounds his trumpet.

The 7th trumpet belongs in Rev 9.

So you think John did not report what he observed correctly ?

 

[keras]

Then the earthquake the same hour in Jerusalem.

There will be only one violent earthquake in Jerusalem; when Jesus Returns at the end of the second half of the 70th 'week'. Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18
This is proof that the 2Witnesses will be active during the second half, the final 1260 days of this age.

People who do have wrong beliefs, are not condemned for it, their Salvation remains intact. Only a loss of rewards at the Judgment.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, that is not what the "And" means. The "And" is denoting an ongoing list of events and information that John is reporting.

Go to Revelation 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22. the same thing. Most of the verses begin with "And". Something you probably have never noticed before. It is John's style of writing.

Revelation 11:
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Let's look at Rev 11:2-3 (ESV): but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The "And" that begins verse 3 means "in addition to." It was meant that in addition to "they will trample the holy city for forty-two months," authority will also be given to the two witnesses. The "And" therefore means, both timeframes run concurrent.

Doug, this is definitive. The two timeframes run together. This is in addition to all the other verses that say the 2W operate in the second half. This here is just icing on the cake.

 

[Douggg]

There will be only one violent earthquake in Jerusalem; when Jesus Returns at the end of the second half of the 70th 'week'. Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18
This is proof that the 2Witnesses will be active during the second half, the final 1260 days of this age.

The two witnesses leave this world, then the same hour the earthquake in Jerusalem - and then the 7th angel sounds. The third woe lasts a time, times, half time. So the two witnesses cannot be called up to heaven the day Jesus returns - as there is still the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath left after they leave this world.

.

 

[Douggg]

The "And" that begins verse 3 means "in addition to." It was meant that in addition to "they will trample the holy city for forty-two months," authority will also be given to the two witnesses. The "And" therefore means, both timeframes run concurrent.

No that is not what the "And" means. It means "in addition to what I just informed you of". It is not saying that the forty months of the gentiles trampling down Jerusalem and the 1260 days of the two witnesses prophesying coincide with each other.


First half
1260 days, Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

Second half (in the)
3 1/2 days, Revelation 11:11
42 months, Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
times, times, half time, Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The two witnesses leave this world, then the same hour the earthquake in Jerusalem - and then the 7th angel sounds. The third woe lasts a time, times, half time. So the two witnesses cannot be called up to heaven the day Jesus returns - as there is still the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath left after they leave this world.

.

Doug, you are now ignoring the interlude that prematurely ended Rev 9. That chapter continues at Rev 11:14, and it ends at Rev 11:19.

What else you are ignoring is the time gap between Rev 11:3 & 7. For your information, Rev 11:2-3, whose timeframes run concurrently, take up nearly 3.5 years between Rev 11:3 and Rev 11: 7.

Doug, the reality of the time gap between Rev 11:3 and Rev 11:7 is more proof of the interlude. There is no way that the 7th trumpet isn't sounded before the first bowl. Not honoring the time gap between Rev 11:3 and Rev 11:7, puts the 7th trumpet near the end of the second half. We both know that is not in alignment with Scriptures.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you are now ignoring the interlude that prematurely ended Rev 9. That chapter continues at Rev 11:14, and it ends at Rev 11:19.

There is no interlude, no parenthetical chapters. The second woe in Revelation 9 takes place near the end of the 7 years, as the huge 200,000,000 size armies move toward Armageddon. Even Dr. Andy Woods says that. There's no room to place the third woe right after that.

The third woe event begin right are the two witnesses are killed and leave this world. And lasts a time, times, half time.

What else you are ignoring is the time gap between Rev 11:3 & 7. For your information, Rev 11:2-3, whose timeframes run concurrently, take up nearly 3.5 years between Rev 11:3 and Rev 11: 7.

The two witnesses begin their 1260 days on day 1 of the 7 years. On day 1260 they are killed. Then their bodies lay dead in the streets 3 1/2 day. I am not ignoring anything. It is on my time line chart.

I also added the second woe to the chart. The second woe takes place near the end of the 7 years, on the way to Armageddon, right before Jesus returns.

 

[keras]

The two witnesses leave this world, then the same hour the earthquake in Jerusalem - and then the 7th angel sounds. The third woe lasts a time, times, half time. So the two witnesses cannot be called up to heaven the day Jesus returns - as there is still the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath left after they leave this world.

.

There is not two devastating earthquakes to come in Jerusalem.
Isn't it obvious to all that the 2W will be active during the time of world Satanic control? Why do they need to preach to the Christian peoples, who will be occupying all of the holy Land, from the Sixth Seal to the day [the midpoint of the final 7 years] when the beast conquers them? Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 11:31-32

THEN; the 2Witnesses will cause trouble for the Anti-Christ and be able to resist any attempts to kill them, until 3 1/2 days before Jesus Return's.
THEN, the Christian peoples will be divided into 2 groups, one taken to a place of safety, Rev 12:14, the others must remain, Rev 12:17
THEN; the Great Tribulation takes place, ending with the 7th Bowl - Armageddon.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There is no interlude, no parenthetical chapters. The second woe in Revelation 9 takes place near the end of the 7 years, as the huge 200,000,000 size armies move toward Armageddon. Even Dr. Andy Woods says that. There's no room to place the third woe right after that.

The third woe event begin right are the two witnesses are killed and leave this world. And lasts a time, times, half time.


The two witnesses begin their 1260 days on day 1 of the 7 years. On day 1260 they are killed. Then their bodies lay dead in the streets 3 1/2 day. I am not ignoring anything. It is on my time line chart.

I also added the second woe to the chart. The second woe takes place near the end of the 7 years, on the way to Armageddon, right before Jesus returns.


View attachment 357314

Doug, the 2W receive authority just before the midpoint. The first half of the Trib is history. How then do they go back in time and start at day 1 of the Trib, and which verse says that?

 

[Timtofly]

I never said that Revelation 11:1-13 are in the first 6 trumpets.

Yes you have and do:

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

---------------------------------------------------

The 7th trumpet on the timeline sounds right after the great earthquake in Jerusalem in verse 13. The earthquake takes place the same hour as the two witnesses leave this world, ascending up to heaven in a cloud.

The first half of the chapter is a parenthetical about after the 7th Trumpet sounds.


You claim the earthquake happens right before the 7th Trumpet.

That means the 1260 days had already started sometime in the first 6 Trumpets.

 

[Timtofly]

You are not understanding basic math and counting. Three comes after one and two. Seven comes after five and six. The seventh trumpet is referenced in Revelation 10:7 and 11:15-19, so you have the wrong verses that refer to the third woe/seventh trumpet. This is something very simple and you still miss it. You do understand that the third woe is the seventh trumpet, right? How can you not even reference Revelation 11:15-19 when you reference the third woe? Unbelievable.

The third woe is not the 7th Trumpet. None of the woes were actual Trumpet events.

5th Trumpet:

"And he opened the bottomless pit."

6th Trumpet:

"Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed."

7th Trumpet:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

How is Jesus announced King a woe?

How is the 4 angels loosed a woe?

How is the pit opened a woe?


These are events that have ramifications, but the woe is separate.

1st woe:

"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."

2nd woe:

"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths."

3rd woe:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

The Trumpets were events.

The woes were Satan taking advantage of these events and making life miserable for those he had deceived.

Dougg is just making up his own chronological order just like you and every one else to fit their own private interpretation.

You deny that Jesus is even on the earth, and that He was just announced to all the people of every nation, that He will now personally and physically reign over them. At least for few days. They will all be killed one way or another. Because they are the remnant of humanity left after the final harvest has been declared over.

You have missed the point of John's chronology, and the fact Jesus has been on the earth with His angels during the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. Your chronology demands we start over whenever something new happens.

Do you not have all the events running in parallel? Dougg just has a slightly stranger parallel than you do, but nonetheless both of you deny Jesus is and has been on the earth at the time the 7th Trumpet declares the official news that all nations are now under one central authority based in Jerusalem, and Jesus is the King of the world.

The 7th Trumpet sounding is at least 42 months before Armageddon is even placed in the minds of these same humans, they need to all gather at.

The 3rd woe is that 42 month period that takes place the same time as the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. The 2 witnesses are the only witness in mystery Babylon, the Abomination of Desolation, 8th kingdom of the world, that starts 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

The 7th Trumpet is not the end, if Satan is allowed a 42 month extension, after time is declared over. Although it is reasonable to state the 7th Trumpet keeps sounding the whole time and only stops when all are dead at Armageddon. Otherwise it sounds for 7 days and all those same people are still dead at the end of the week.

Obviously at Armageddon there will be less people still alive than when the 42 months started. For one, many will be beheaded. But it would seem that killing and being killed will still be normal every day Abomination of Desolation normalcy. The 7th Trumpet does not start sounding at Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet stops sounding to end Adam's dead corruptible flesh, as it has run it's course and mankind is no longer under the punishment of sin and death. No one is still alive in that mortal body either.

The earthquake in Revelation 11 is the same one just prior to Armageddon at the 7th vial. Satan has trashed the place for 42 months, and it will be in need of a total make over. Otherwise the restoration by Jesus at the 6th Seal will remain, and Satan will not get a 42 month extension.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There is no interlude, no parenthetical chapters. The second woe in Revelation 9 takes place near the end of the 7 years, as the huge 200,000,000 size armies move toward Armageddon. Even Dr. Andy Woods says that. There's no room to place the third woe right after that.

The third woe event begin right are the two witnesses are killed and leave this world. And lasts a time, times, half time.


The two witnesses begin their 1260 days on day 1 of the 7 years. On day 1260 they are killed. Then their bodies lay dead in the streets 3 1/2 day. I am not ignoring anything. It is on my time line chart.

I also added the second woe to the chart. The second woe takes place near the end of the 7 years, on the way to Armageddon, right before Jesus returns.


View attachment 357314

Rev 7 is the classic example of an interlude, after Rev 6. Rev 7:14 is about the GM in Heaven, having come out of the GT. The GT hasn't even started yet. Explain that, please.

Rev 7:1-8 introduce the 144k. They are instrumental in the salvation of millions of unbelievers. The souls under the altar in Rev 6:9 are the first group of the GM. How did all those unbelievers get saved? The 144k facilitates the saving of a multitude during the Trib. They start in the early seals.

Rev 7 is a classic interlude.

 

[Douggg]

Yes you have and do:

Revelation 1-13, includes the first half of the 1260 days of the two witnesses. During which, the trumpet plagues do not take place.

The trumpet plagues do not begin until the the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath - when he and his angels have been cast down to earth. Babylon the great has fallen has fallen - to earth - and on earth when the trumpets and vials take place.

The first half of the chapter is a parenthetical about after the 7th Trumpet sounds.

You claim the earthquake happens right before the 7th Trumpet.

That means the 1260 days had already started sometime in the first 6 Trumpets.

No, nothing in Revelation 11 is parenthetical.

The earthquake in Jerusalem is not the global earthquake of the 7th vial. (see my chart above). The 6th trumpet woe is the killing of a 1/3 of mankind as the 200,000,000 size armies are on their way to Armageddon. (also on the chart).

The trumpets and vials do not take place until after Satan and his angels are cast down to earth - and after the two witnesses are gone.

 

[Douggg]

There is not two devastating earthquakes to come in Jerusalem.

The earthquake in Jerusalem, in Revelation 12:13, is not the global earthquake of the 7 vial, which includes a great hailstone plague.

Isn't it obvious to all that the 2W will be active during the time of world Satanic control? Why do they need to preach to the Christian peoples, who will be occupying all of the holy Land, from the Sixth Seal to the day [the midpoint of the final 7 years] when the beast conquers them? Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 11:31-32

The two witnesses prophesy of things to come, including about the great tribulation, not things that are already taking place.

The Jews are not yet Christians during their time. The two witnesses testify about Jesus and the gospel of the kingdom and salvation.

After the Antichrist reveals himself not to the be the messiah, the Jews will have turned to Jesus en-masse in Revelation 12:10 when Satan is cast down to earth.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 7 is the classic example of an interlude, after Rev 6. Rev 7:14 is about the GM in Heaven, having come out of the GT. The GT hasn't even started yet. Explain that, please.

Rev 7:1-8 introduce the 144k. They are instrumental in the salvation of millions of unbelievers. The souls under the altar in Rev 6:9 are the first group of the GM. How did all those unbelievers get saved? The 144k facilitates the saving of a multitude during the Trib. They start in the early seals.

Rev 7 is a classic interlude.

John is not taking a break from writing what he saw and heard. Interlude is the wrong description. It is better to say the text of Revelation 6-21 does not follow a strict chronological unbroken timeline of events. The timeline of events must be deciphered by the reader. i.e. succeed in understanding, interpreting, identifying.

We were not discussing Revelation 7 anyway, but Revelation 11 over which half of the 7 years the two witnesses 1260 days will be, first or second.

 

[Douggg]

I don't know who you're talking about and I don't care. I'm talking to you. Where do you get that from in scripture?

You were questioning where I got the notation of "one year of God's wrath" on my chart. I replied..."One of the posters here cited a passage in the old testament about God's wrath lasting one year."

I wish I could remember the passage. I should have wrote it down. Or maybe even noted it on my chart. I am trying to find the passage. No success so far. I have not forgotten about your comment.

 

[keras]

The Jews are not yet Christians during their time

No; and it is never said there will be a general redemption of Judah.
That idea is part of the false rapture theory and will not happen.

You fail to provide proper scriptural support for your beliefs and opinions.

 

[Douggg]

No; and it is never said there will be a general redemption of Judah.
That idea is part of the false rapture theory and will not happen.

You fail to provide proper scriptural support for your beliefs and opinions.

Romans 1125 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: