Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[keras]

keras, below is the correct chronological order. Please, put these events as listed into what you think is the correct chronological order. i.e. arrange the list according to what you believe.

1. The two witnesses authorized

2. they preach for 1260 days

3. they are killed and leave this world

4. the 7th angel sounds

5. Satan is cast down to earth, the third woe

6. the time, times, half time - takes place

7. Jesus's return.

1/ th3 Lords Day of fiery wrath wipes the Middle East clean; Revelation 6:12-17
2/ The faithful Christians go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
3/ The leader of the One World Govt makes a 7 year peace treaty with them After the Gog/ Magog attack.
4/ There will be peace for 3 1/2 years This period in not mentioned in Revelation.
5/ The leader of the OWG, now revealed as the 'beast, the Anti-Christ, will conquer Beulah. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 7:25
6/ the 2Witnesses will preach in Jerusalem for 1260 days, of which 3 1/2 days; they will lie dead in the street.
7. During that time, times and half a time, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will take place. The 7th Trumpet simply announces the soon to happen glorious Return of Jesus, on the 1260th day. He will resurrect the 2W and all of the other martyrs killed during that time. Rev 20:4-6

I have ample scriptural support for the above. You have only your opinions.

 

[Douggg]

1/ th3 Lords Day of fiery wrath wipes the Middle East clean; Revelation 6:12-17
2/ The faithful Christians go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
3/ The leader of the One World Govt makes a 7 year peace treaty with them After the Gog/ Magog attack.
4/ There will be peace for 3 1/2 years This period in not mentioned in Revelation.
5/ The leader of the OWG, now revealed as the 'beast, the Anti-Christ, will conquer Beulah. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 7:25
6/ the 2Witnesses will preach in Jerusalem for 1260 days, of which 3 1/2 days; they will lie dead in the street.
7. During that time, times and half a time, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will take place. The 7th Trumpet simply announces the soon to happen glorious Return of Jesus, on the 1260th day. He will resurrect the 2W and all of the other martyrs killed during that time. Rev 20:4-6

I have ample scriptural support for the above. You have only your opinions.

keras, you the changed the events in the list, and made up a list of your own. That is not what I was asking for.

Take the events as I listed, and put those events in order. You don't need to retype them.

I purposely left out noting first half or second half anywhere in the list.

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Regarding your list, you wrote... The 7th Trumpet simply announces the soon to happen glorious Return of Jesus, on the 1260th day.
(I think you are implying the 1260th day of the two witnesses. Jesus actually returns on the 2520th day of the 7 years)

No. The 7th trumpet announces the 3rd woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The 3rd woe to the inhabiters of the earth is Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short - the time, times, half time.

The 7th trumpet does not sound in Revelation 11:15 until after the 1263 1/2 days of the two witnesses, and their caught up to heaven in Revelation 11:12-13.

 

[keras]

keras, you the changed the events in the list, and made up a list of your own. That is not what I was asking for.

I stand by that sequence of events. Logical and scripturally correct.

Jesus will Return 2520 days after the final 7 years commences.
But the world power of the beast, the Great Tribulation, the ministry of the 2 Witnesses and Gods faithful people kept safe in the wilderness, will commence the final 1260 days: after the Temple is desecrated. 2 Thess 2:4, at the mid point of the 7 years.

 

[Douggg]

I stand by that sequence of events. Logical and scripturally correct.

Jesus will Return 2520 days after the final 7 years commences.
But the world power of the beast, the Great Tribulation, the ministry of the 2 Witnesses and Gods faithful people kept safe in the wilderness, will commence the final 1260 days: after the Temple is desecrated. 2 Thess 2:4, at the mid point of the 7 years.

keras, the seventh trumpet sounds after the two witnesses leave this world. So the time, times, half time has to be after the two witnesses' 1260 days - no concurrent with it.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Jeffrey, below is the correct chronological order. Please, put these events as listed into what you think is the correct chronological order. i.e. arrange the list according to what you believe.

1. The two witnesses authorized

2. they preach for 1260 days

3. they are killed and leave this world

4. the 7th angel sounds

5. Satan is cast down to earth, the third woe

6. the time, times, half time - takes place

7. Jesus's return.

Jerss

1/ th3 Lords Day of fiery wrath wipes the Middle East clean; Revelation 6:12-17
2/ The faithful Christians go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
3/ The leader of the One World Govt makes a 7 year peace treaty with them After the Gog/ Magog attack.
4/ There will be peace for 3 1/2 years This period in not mentioned in Revelation.
5/ The leader of the OWG, now revealed as the 'beast, the Anti-Christ, will conquer Beulah. Rev 13:5-7, Daniel 7:25
6/ the 2Witnesses will preach in Jerusalem for 1260 days, of which 3 1/2 days; they will lie dead in the street.
7. During that time, times and half a time, the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will take place. The 7th Trumpet simply announces the soon to happen glorious Return of Jesus, on the 1260th day. He will resurrect the 2W and all of the other martyrs killed during that time. Rev 20:4-6

I have ample scriptural support for the above. You have only your opinion

Jeffrey, below is the correct chronological order. Please, put these events as listed into what you think is the correct chronological order. i.e. arrange the list according to what you believe.

1. The two witnesses authorized

2. they preach for 1260 days

3. they are killed and leave this world

4. the 7th angel sounds

5. Satan is cast down to earth, the third woe

6. the time, times, half time - takes place

7. Jesus's return.

The 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3. They prophesy for 1,260 days starting just before the midpoint at Matt 24:14.

This start of the 2W occurs immediately before the 7th trumpet.

Upon the 7th trumpet, Satan is cast to Earth for the 3rd woe. Satan uses the demon from the pit to demonize the man antichrist in Rev 13:1-7. The AC turns on Israel and commits the AoD and thereby fulfills Matt 24:15-16 and everything we see in Rev 13.

About 1,255.5 days later, the 2W are killed and lay dead for 3.5 days. They are then raptured to Heaven just before Jesus returns to end the battle of Armageddon.

I also believe that after the 2W are raptured in Rev 11:12, the earthquake in Rev 11:13 is the same earthquake in Rev 16:18-20 and in Ezekiel 38:19-20.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, I have never said that they start at the beginning of the "Trib". I have been saying at the beginning of the 7 years or at the beginning of the 70th week.


It is impossible to have the two witnesses' 1260 days to be the second half of the 7 years.

You don't take into consideration the third woe lasting for a time, times, half time is after the 1260 days of the two witnesses. You are going to have the third woe lasting a time, time, half time as being after Jesus's return ?

The two witnesses authorized - then they begin 1260 day preaching for the first half of the seven years - then the are killed and leave this world - then the 7th angel sounds - then Satan is casts down to earth, the third woe - and the time, times, half time of the second half takes place - ending with Jesus's return.

So, you say the 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3, which occurs shortly before the midpoint, and YOU say the 2W then start at day 1 of the Trib, Rev 6:1-2. That is biblically impossible.

 

[Douggg]

So, you say the 2W are authorized in Rev 11:3, which occurs shortly before the midpoint, and YOU say the 2W then start at day 1 of the Trib, Rev 6:1-2. That is biblically impossible.

The two witnesses received authority prior to the beginning of the 7 year 70th week. Their 1260 days is the first half.

 

[Douggg]

This start of the 2W occurs immediately before the 7th trumpet.

No, the text of Revelation 11:15 of the 7th trumpet sounding is AFTER the two witnesses have been called up to heaven and leave this world in Revelation 11:12-13..

The 1260 days in both Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is before the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The two witnesses received authority prior to the beginning of the 7 year 70th week. Their 1260 days is the first half.

Show me the verse that proves they receive their authorization prior to Rev 6:1-2, the beginning of the Trib (seven years of 21 judgments of God’s wrath).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

No, the text of Revelation 11:15 of the 7th trumpet sounding is AFTER the two witnesses have been called up to heaven and leave this world in Revelation 11:12-13..

The 1260 days in both Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 is before the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

Rev 11:3 proves you wrong. Rev 11:3 occurs shortly before the midpoint, before the 7th trumpet. The future tense in verse 3 appears two times: “… I will grant authority” and “they will prophesy for 1,260 days.”

Show me the verse with past-tense wording about the 2W having their authorization.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:3 proves you wrong. Rev 11:3 occurs shortly before the midpoint, before the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:3 indicates the length of the two witnesses' testifying time. Revelation 11:3 does not say in the text of that verse whether first half or second half.

In Revelation 11:15, the 7th trumpet sounds AFTER the two witnesses leave this world in Revelation 11:12-13.

Thus, the time, times, half time of the third woe is AFTER the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

1260 days of the two witnesses (first half). Then the time, times, half time (second half).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 11:3 indicates the length of the two witnesses' testifying time. Revelation 11:3 does not say in the text of that verse whether first half or second half.

In Revelation 11:15, the 7th trumpet sounds AFTER the two witnesses leave this world in Revelation 11:12-13.

Thus, the time, times, half time of the third woe is AFTER the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

1260 days of the two witnesses (first half). Then the time, times, half time (second half).

You cannot prove the 2W operate in the first half anymore than the few days before the midpoint, after they receive their authorization in Rev 11:3.

 

[Douggg]

You cannot prove the 2W operate in the first half anymore than the few days before the midpoint, after they receive their authorization in Rev 11:3.

It does not says "authorization" in the ESV, but "authority". God does not issue a permit to the two witnesses. God chooses who the two witnesses are. They are not applying for a permit, nor authorization.

The KJV states it clearly.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

God empowers His two witnesses that He chooses with His knowledge of things to come to prophesy during the 1260 days.

God empowers His two witnesses that fire comes out their mouths by which they kill anyone who tries to harm them (Revelation 11:5).

God empowers His two witnesses to call plagues upon the earth (Revelation 11: 6)

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1260 days is more than just a few days. It is the entire first half of the 7 years.

You cannot prove that the 7th angel sounds before the 1260 days of the two witnesses. The two witnesses are not mentioned in Revelation 11 any more after the 7th angel sounds in Revelation 11:15.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witnesses is not the same 1260 days of the Revelation 12:6.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness is after the 7th angel sounds.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness coincides with the time, times, half time of the third woe.

You do not make time line charts and post them, showing the relation of the 1260 days of the two witnesses with other major events of the 7 years.

 

[keras]

the seventh trumpet sounds after the two witnesses leave this world. So the time, times, half time has to be after the two witnesses' 1260 days - no concurrent with it.

Revelation 11:15-19, does not say Jesus will have Returned when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. It is a preview of that glorious event.
Proved by how the 7 Bowls must be fulfilled before then. Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 11:15-19, does not say Jesus will have Returned when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. It is a preview of that glorious event.
Proved by how the 7 Bowls must be fulfilled before then. Culminating in the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

Of course Revelation 11:15-19 does not say Jesus will have Returned when the Seventh Trumpet is blown. I agree.

Jesus's return is a time, times, half time after the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It does not says "authorization" in the ESV, but "authority". God does not issue a permit to the two witnesses. God chooses who the two witnesses are. They are not applying for a permit, nor authorization.

The KJV states it clearly.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

God empowers His two witnesses that He chooses with His knowledge of things to come to prophesy during the 1260 days.

God empowers His two witnesses that fire comes out their mouths by which they kill anyone who tries to harm them (Revelation 11:5).

God empowers His two witnesses to call plagues upon the earth (Revelation 11: 6)

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1260 days is more than just a few days. It is the entire first half of the 7 years.

You cannot prove that the 7th angel sounds before the 1260 days of the two witnesses. The two witnesses are not mentioned in Revelation 11 any more after the 7th angel sounds in Revelation 11:15.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witnesses is not the same 1260 days of the Revelation 12:6.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness is after the 7th angel sounds.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness coincides with the time, times, half time of the third woe.

You do not make time line charts and post them, showing the relation of the 1260 days of the two witnesses with other major events of the 7 years.

It does not says "authorization" in the ESV, but "authority". God does not issue a permit to the two witnesses. God chooses who the two witnesses are. They are not applying for a permit, nor authorization.

The KJV states it clearly.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

God empowers His two witnesses that He chooses with His knowledge of things to come to prophesy during the 1260 days.

God empowers His two witnesses that fire comes out their mouths by which they kill anyone who tries to harm them (Revelation 11:5).

God empowers His two witnesses to call plagues upon the earth (Revelation 11: 6)

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1260 days is more than just a few days. It is the entire first half of the 7 years.

You cannot prove that the 7th angel sounds before the 1260 days of the two witnesses. The two witnesses are not mentioned in Revelation 11 any more after the 7th angel sounds in Revelation 11:15.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witnesses is not the same 1260 days of the Revelation 12:6.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness is after the 7th angel sounds.

You cannot prove that the 1260 days of the two witness coincides with the time, times, half time of the third woe.

You do not make time line charts and post them, showing the relation of the 1260 days of the two witnesses with other major events of the 7 years.

Rev 11:1 cites the temple of God (obviously in the holy city of Jerusalem). Rev 11:2 (ESV) says: they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. That is stated in future tense. Matt 24:16 aligns. Therefore, Jesus was referring to the midpoint.

Rev 11:3 says: And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” That is also stated in future tense. Matt 24:14 aligns, which is a bit before the midpoint. The 2W will begin their prophesy for 1,260 days just before the midpoint.

The context of Rev 11:1-3 is the midpoint. Elijah is said to be one of the 2W. He happens to arrive just before the midpoint, which ushers in the Great Tribulation: Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

The 2W start their 1,260 days of prophesy just before the midpoint.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:1 cites the temple of God (obviously in the holy city of Jerusalem). Rev 11:2 (ESV) says: they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. That is stated in future tense. Matt 24:16 aligns. Therefore, Jesus was referring to the midpoint.

Rev 11:3 says: And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” That is also stated in future tense. Matt 24:14 aligns, which is a bit before the midpoint. The 2W will begin their prophesy for 1,260 days just before the midpoint.

The context of Rev 11:1-3 is the midpoint. Elijah is said to be one of the 2W. He happens to arrive just before the midpoint, which ushers in the Great Tribulation: Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

The gentiles trampling down the holy city for 42 months is in the second half, corresponding to the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 of the beast king's rule - after the two witnesses have left this world.

In Revelation 11:11, John himself begins narrating what he sees..

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And for the rest of Revelation 11, John continues narrating himself what he saw taking place.

The speaking in future tense in Revelation 11:3 has nothing to do whether the 1260 days is in first half or second half.

What determines which half the two witnesses prophesy is that verse 15, the sounding of the 7th angel, is AFTER the two witnesses leave this world in verses 12-13. The two witnesses are gone when the 7th angel blows his trumpet.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The gentiles trampling down the holy city for 42 months is in the second half, corresponding to the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 of the beast king's rule - after the two witnesses have left this world.

In Revelation 11:11, John himself begins narrating what he sees..

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

And for the rest of Revelation 11, John continues narrating himself what he saw taking place.

The speaking in future tense in Revelation 11:3 has nothing to do whether the 1260 days is in first half or second half.

What determines which half the two witnesses prophesy is that verse 15, the sounding of the 7th angel, is AFTER the two witnesses leave this world in verses 12-13. The two witnesses are gone when the 7th angel blows his trumpet.


View attachment 357283

Rev 11:2-3 prove Jesus was talking about the midpoint. The "will trample" is in verse 2. The "will prophesy" is in verse 3. The 2W will prophesy starting in Matt 24:14 as the trampling occurs and is evidenced by the fleeing in Matt 24:16. These events usher in the great tribulation cited in Matt 24:21. Elijah is one of the 2W. He will show up shortly before the midpoint. Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

The 1,260 days of prophesy by the 2W, of which Elijah is one, begin shortly before the second half.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:2-3 prove Jesus was talking about the midpoint. The "will trample" is in verse 2. The "will prophesy" is in verse 3.

42 months is a length of time.
1260 days is a length of time

There is nothing said about a midpoint in verses 2-3. Are you reading the text, thinking that because the 42 months is mentioned first - that it is the first half, and because the 1260 days is mentioned second - that it is the second half ?

You have not proved that the 7th angel sounds his trumpet prior to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

You are ignoring what the text says. The two witnesses leave this world in verses 12-13. Then after they are gone, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet in verse 15.

Make a time line chart of the 7 years showing the 42 months, the 1260 days, and the day that 7th angel sounds.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

42 months is a length of time.
1260 days is a length of time

There is nothing said about a midpoint in verses 2-3. Are you reading the text, thinking that because the 42 months is mentioned first - that it is the first half, and because the 1260 days is mentioned second - that it is the second half ?

You have not proved that the 7th angel sounds his trumpet prior to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

You are ignoring what the text says. The two witnesses leave this world in verses 12-13. Then after they are gone, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet in verse 15.

Make a time line chart of the 7 years showing the 42 months, the 1260 days, and the day that 7th angel sounds.

The 42 months in Rev 11:2 and the 1,260 days in Rev 11:3 are mentioned as future events that occur together. Rev 11:3 starts with "And." That means the 1,260 days start at the same time the trampling occurs. The AoD (Matt 24:15) is referred to because the trampling of the holy city occurs just before the midpoint. That is evidenced by the fleeing in Matt 24:16. The 2W thereby factually start in Matt 24:14.

Doug, the verses are on my side. Rev 11:7 clearly occurs 1,256.5 days after the 2W start.

Rev 13:7 is a good prospect for the beast that rises out of the abyss that eventually kills the 2W. That doesn't mean that the beast finds the 2W quickly. It takes a good while.

The 7th trumpet belongs in Rev 9.