Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I don't understand what you are saying. Their 1260 days of prophesying and testifying are from day 1 to day 1260.

btw, the ESV's wording of "authority" in Revelation 11:3 is misleading. Just as is your use of the word "Trib" instead of "7 years" or "70th week".

The kjv is more clear. God empowers the two witnesses.

Revelatlion 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

I don't understand what you are saying. Their 1260 days of prophesying and testifying are from day 1 to day 1260.

btw, the ESV's wording of "authority" in Revelation 11:3 is misleading. Just as is your use of the word "Trib" instead of "7 years" or "70th week".

The kjv is more clear. God empowers the two witnesses.

Revelatlion 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Doug, how does the authority given in Rev 11:3 -- in FUTURE tense -- say the 2W start at day 1 of the Trib, which, by the time of the authority, the first half has nearly completely past? The future tense applies to the future, not the past. That authority is given shortly before the midpoint. The future tense means the 2W start shortly after that authority. The 1,260 days in Rev 11:3 therefore run concurrently with the 42 months in Rev 11:2, per the FUTURE tense stated for both.

More proof is Matt 24:14 is the launching pad for the 2W. Also, Elijah, as one of the 2W, arrives to START the 2W shortly before the midpoint per Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Doug, you cannot put anything together, like the above, that proves the 2W start on day 1 of the Trib. The proof is rich that they start shortly before the second half.

42 months is a length of time.
1260 days is a length of time

There is nothing said about a midpoint in verses 2-3. Are you reading the text, thinking that because the 42 months is mentioned first - that it is the first half, and because the 1260 days is mentioned second - that it is the second half ?

You have not proved that the 7th angel sounds his trumpet prior to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

You are ignoring what the text says. The two witnesses leave this world in verses 12-13. Then after they are gone, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet in verse 15.

Make a time line chart of the 7 years showing the 42 months, the 1260 days, and the day that 7th angel sounds.

Doug, Rev 11:2 refers to the midpoint because the trampling will cause the fleeing in Matt 24:16.

 

[Timtofly]

So, you've never read this?

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

In verse 13, after the angel sounded the 4th trumpet, it says "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!". That means the three woes were being directly related to the last 3 trumpets that were yet to sound, which were obviously the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets. So, the 1st woe correlates with the 5th trumpet, the 2nd woe correlates with the 6th trumpet and the 3rd woe correlates with the 7th trumpet. Very simple to see this if you actually read the text.

Related does not mean they are the same thing.

You are related to your parents, but you are not your parents.

The 7th Trumpet is not the third woe. The Trumpet is one thing and the woe is related to what the Trumpet does.

"Correlates" is different than saying the 7th Trumpet "is".

The 7th Trumpet is Jesus declared King over every nation. The 3rd woe is Satan declared King over every nation. Two totally opposite actions.

The 7th Trumpet does not declare Satan as the King over all nations.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, how does the authority given in Rev 11:3 -- in FUTURE tense -- say the 2W start at day 1 of the Trib? The future tense applies to the future, not the past. That authority is given shortly before the midpoint. The future tense means the 2W start shortly after that authority.

The two witnesses will be empowered by God, i.e. given authority by God, over the course of their 1260 days.

The verse does not indicate by itself whether the 1260 days will be in the first half or second half.

What determines that the 1260 days will be first half is that the two witnesses will be killed and will leave this world before the third woe time, times, half time of the third woe period - which that period will end with Jesus's return.

1260 days (first half) + 3 1/2 days (in the second half) .......then the third woe time, times, half time...... Jesus's return.

 

[Timtofly]

It is not that the first two woes happen after the third woe. But that the first two woes happen "within" the time span of the third woe.


Third woe begins.................the first woe takes place.......... then the second woe takes place........... the third woe ends.

Third woe begins...............................................time/times/half time...................................................................the third woe ends.

Are they really woes since all of humanity has the mark and are so reprobate, they could care less what happens to them, as long as Satan is providing their basic needs?

You really don't get it. Either one is beheaded or has the mark. The sooner one is beheaded the less sin and wickedness they are around.

There is not a third party called Christians, hanging out, having a campfire, in a bunker somewhere.

 

[Timtofly]

I couldn't find "one year of God wrath" phase in any of those chapters.

It might have been over at another Christian forum where the discussion took place.

Thanks for trying, anyway.

It is not about wrath. It is about a year mentioned in those chapters. Perhaps try the King James, as a reference?

 

[Douggg]

It is not about wrath. It is about a year mentioned in those chapters. Perhaps try the King James, as a reference?

The kjv is what I use.

 

[Douggg]

Are they really woes since all of humanity has the mark and are so reprobate, they could care less what happens to them, as long as Satan is providing their basic needs?

The first woe is that the flesh tormenting locust sting men withouth the seal of God for five months.

The second woe is the armies number 200,000,000 kill a 1/3 of mankind.

 

[Timtofly]

The kjv is what I use.

You have to read the context in all 3 chapters. I don't know why any one would take some phrase out of context and create an unrelated point.

Those chapters were the topic you quoted without doing your own research.

The point there is a day and year mentioned in conjunction is one reason some get a year day principle.

A day of "something", and a year of "something" are mentioned in all 3 chapters.

 

[Timtofly]

The first woe is that the flesh tormenting locust sting men withouth the seal of God for five months.

The second woe is the armies number 200,000,000 kill a 1/3 of mankind.

I never argued against that. The point is the 5th Trumpet opened the pit. The 6th Trumpet loosed 4 angels. Your point is related but not the same thing.

Those 144k are not even on the earth during the third woe. They are with Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. Jesus is on the earth from the 6th Seal until 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet. If there is no third woe, Jesus and the 144k never leave the earth.

The 3rd woe is time extended for 42 months, otherwise there is no 3rd woe. Jesus will be King on the earth forever, even in the NHNE.

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k when the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The two witnesses will be empowered by God, i.e. given authority by God, over the course of their 1260 days.

The verse does not indicate by itself whether the 1260 days will be in the first half or second half.

What determines that the 1260 days will be first half is that the two witnesses will be killed and will leave this world before the third woe time, times, half time of the third woe period - which that period will end with Jesus's return.

1260 days (first half) + 3 1/2 days (in the second half) .......then the third woe time, times, half time...... Jesus's return

In Rev 11:2-3, the trampling of the holy city and the empowerment of the 2W are cited only as FUTURE events: "will trample" (verse 2) and "will prophesy" (verse 3). Doug, those are the only timestamps on the trampling of the holy city and the start of the 2W. They are spoken of as futue events. The 2W's 1,260 days therefore begin in Matt 24:14, which occurs just before the midpoint. The trampling is evidenced by the fleeing from the holy city in Matt 24:16.

Elijah will be one of the 2W. When will he show up to START? Malachi 4:5 (ESV): “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

"The great and awesome day of the Lord" is the GT. Matt 24:21 (ESV): For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Rev 11:7 (KJV): And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 17:8 (ESV): The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

The beast does not rise from the bottomless pit until deep into the second half (Rev 17:8).

There is a gap of 1,255.5 days in Rev 11 after the 2W start in Matt 24:14 until Rev 11:7 when they are killed by the beast that rises from the bottomless pit (Rev 17:8).

Doug, that is the scriptural evidence that the 2W operate mainly in the second half.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus is on the earth from the 6th Seal until 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet

Jesus is not on the earth until the end of the 7th trumpet third woe time, times, half time.

The sixth seal event is the sign of the Son of man in heaven. It is 45 days before Jesus returns to stand on the Mt of Olives.

The 3rd woe is time extended for 42 months, otherwise there is no 3rd woe. Jesus will be King on the earth forever, even in the NHNE.

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k when the New Jerusalem descends from Heaven.

Jesus will be present on the current earth during the 1000 year millennium. Then afterward, the second resurrection takes place and the current earth and heaven destroyed (Revelation 20:11) at that time. Leaving only the third heaven, where the Great White Throne Judgment will take place.

Then after that is the Revelation 21 new heaven, new earth created. And then the new Jerusalem (coming down from the third heaven) to the new earth.

 

[Douggg]

In Rev 11:2-3, the trampling of the holy city and the empowerment of the 2W are cited only as FUTURE events: "will trample" (verse 2) and "will prophesy" (verse 3).

Yes, future of us, in the coming 7year 70th week.

Doug, those are the only timestamps on the trampling of the holy city and the start of the 2W

You are not being clear.

There are these end time's time frames in the bible.

Their 1,260 days therefore begin in Matt 24:14, which occurs just before the midpoint. The trampling is evidenced by the fleeing from the holy city in Matt 24:16.

Matthew 24:14 is the long term 2000 year spreading of the gospel of the kingdom of God. It is not restricted to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

The fleeing begins when the abomination of desolation will be set-up, on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns, Daniel 12:12, not the midpoint day 1260. The 42 months that the gentiles will trample down Jerusalem under the reign of the beast king of 42 months will be after the two witnesses will have left this earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, future of us, in the coming 7year 70th week.


You are not being clear.

There are these end time's time frames in the bible.



View attachment 357376



Matthew 24:14 is the long term 2000 year spreading of the gospel of the kingdom of God. It is not restricted to the 1260 days of the two witnesses.

The fleeing begins when the abomination of desolation will be set-up, on day 1185, 1335 days before Jesus returns, Daniel 12:11, not the midpoint day 1260. The 42 months that the gentiles will trample down Jerusalem under the reign of the beast king of 42 months will be after the two witnesses will have left this earth. See my chart below.

You need to learn how to make time line charts to show how all the events and time frames fit together.


View attachment 357378

Doug, there are timeframes (1,260 days; 42 months) that begin in the first half (Rev 11:2 & 3), but the bulk of their time is in the second half. There is no timeframe (1,260 days or 42 months, etc.) that starts and ends in the first half. If you disagree, show me the verses that say so.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, there are timeframes (1,260 days; 42 months) that begin in the first half (Rev 11:2 & 3), but the bulk of their time is in the second half. There is no timeframe (1,260 days or 42 months, etc.) that starts and ends in the first half. If you disagree, show me the verses that say so.

I have showed you the verses over and over. In Revelation 11:12-13, the two witnesses leave this world. Then the seventh angel sounds in Revelation 11:15 signifying the coming of the third woe, which is the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath in Revelation 12:12.

The 42 months of trampling down Jersualem don't begin in the first half, but in the second half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I have showed you the verses over and over. In Revelation 11:12-13, the two witnesses leave this world. Then the seventh angel sounds in Revelation 11:15 signifying the coming of the third woe, which is the time, times, half time of Satan's wrath in Revelation 12:12.

The 42 months of trampling down Jersualem don't begin in the first half, but in the second half.


View attachment 357380

Doug, I have slowed you over and over that Rev 11:2 & 3 are stated in future tense. Therefore, their timeframes run concurrently, by necessity. The 2W start at Matt 24:14; the 42 months of trampling begin just before Matt 24:16.

Therefore, there’s a gap of 1,255,5 days between Matt 24:14 and Rev 11:7.

You therefore can’t prove the 2W do all of their 1,260 days in the first half because Rev 11:2-3 point FORWARD in time; not backward.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, I have slowed you over and over that Rev 11:2 & 3 are stated in future tense.

Yes, future of us in the coming 7year 70th week.

Therefore, their timeframes run concurrently, by necessity.

No, that is flawed rationale. For example, Thanksgiving and Christmas are future of us today. But the are not concurrent. One is on Nov 26, the other is later on December 25.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, future of us, in the coming 7year 70th week.


No, that is flawed rationale. For example, Thanksgiving and Christmas are future of us today. But the are not concurrent. One is on Nov 26, the other is later on December 25.

Doug, you are ignoring the wording of Rev 11:2-3: “will trample” and “will prophesy” plus “And” that starts verse 3. That means the 42 months AND the 1,260 days WILL run concurrently starting just before the midpoint. Matt 24:14-16 are the words of Jesus that prove the truth above.

Elijah will be one of the 2W. To fulfill his role, he will show up shortly before the midpoint, per Malachi 4:5 (KJV): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Doug, the verses above prove the 2W will start just before the midpoint. You don’t have any proof to back up your claims. You only state your opinions which are proven false.

 

[Douggg]

Therefore, there’s a gap of 1,255,5 days between Matt 24:14 and Rev 11:7.

No there is no 1255.5 day gap between Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 11:7. You are misunderstanding Matthew 24:14.

Matthew 24:14 began back in the days of the disciples, as Jesus in Luke 21:44-48 commissioned them to go out and preach the gospel as witnesses.

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you are ignoring the wording of Rev 11:2-3: “will trample” and “will prophesy” plus “And” that starts verse 3.

No, I am not ignoring the wording in Revelation 11:2-3. I am correctly understanding the wording. And I show the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 month and the prophesying and testifying time of 1260 days, on my timeline chart.

Elijah will be one of the 2W. To fulfill his role, he will show up shortly before the midpoint, per Malachi 4:5 (KHV): Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

We don't know for certain who the two witnesses are. One may be Elijah.

The two witnesses start their 1260 days on day 1 of the 7 year 70th week. As the false messianic age of the Antichrist begins. The world saying peace and safety in 1Thessalonians5:3.

The day of the Lord then comes like a thief in the night, unexpected, to end the delusion of peace and safety and to end the false messianic age.

The unexpected act and the beginning of the day of Lord is in 2Thessalonians2:4 when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. That act by the Antichrist is called the transgression of desolation (ToD) in Daniel 8:12-13.

I show the false messianic age, the two witnesses 1260 days, and the ToD act on my time line chart.

 

[Douggg]

@Jeffery Bowden

If you look at my chart... see that 75 days block of time ?

It is in that 75 days, following the AoD setup, that the two witnesses provide cover for the fleeing Jews, by smiting the earth with plagues.

And see that 45 days block of time ? That is when the kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.