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Featured Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. No

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  2. Yes

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  3. I don't know

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  4. Other

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  5. Fully fulfilled

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  6. Half complete Half Future

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  7. All Future

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  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    True dat! :ebil:

    Now, if only we can harmonize that 70weeks with the Olivet Discourse and Revelation :pray:
    There are still plenty of those who say Luke 21 is 70ad, while Matt 24 and Mark 13 and Daniel 12 are still future. Figure that one out.......


     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    As it would have been 1800 years ago.
     
  3. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Um.....I'm not so sure about that. The whole gap theory wasn't introduced until more recently (if I recall correctly....about the mid 1500's).
     
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  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Actually, it was clearly taught by Irenaeus, in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy ( of any significant length) that had survived to the present day. And it was repeated explicitly stated by Hippolytus in the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that had survived to the present day.

    This, and many other Dispensational doctrines that were clearly taught in the earliest documents of the church, are covered at length in my book, “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” which is available online from Dispensational Publishing House.
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'll need to look into that.
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They posited a gap, based on errant calculations.
    They were the only two in eighteen centuries of true church history to posit a gap.
    They posited a date for the 70th Week and Second Coming of about 500 AD.
    They were proved wrong.
    There was no further gap speculation until the 19th century.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Meanwhile in the real world, the gap continues to roll on.
    From the day He departed until His Return will be 2000 years, just as Jesus prophesied; Luke 13:32 and confirmed by Hosea 6:2. We have the hindsight of the centuries past to prove it.
     
  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Wrong again, Benjamin Marshall clearly taught this in 1728. And Apollinarius of Laodicea also taught that t would be in the future, but he put the entire seventy weeks in the end times.

    But instead of being based on "errant calculations," this doctrine is based on careful attention to the exact words used by the Holy Spirit. And it agrees with the most reliable historical data available.
     
  9. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    The Ascension was AD 30. So, you're saying AD 2030 will be the big day? Hmmm. :scratch:
     
  10. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    So, according to your data, what was the year Daniel count began, and the year the 69th week ended? (the exact 483 years)
     
  11. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I believe that Jesus was Crucified in 33AD
    I know that doesn't fit your 490 year segments theory. But it does fit the exact 2000 year periods between Adam and Abraham, then Abraham and Jesus, now from Jesus until His Return. = 6000 years.
    Then the final 1000 year Millennium.

    Actually the next 'big Day' we can expect, will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. The Day that will come as a thief, unexpected and shocking and will set the stage for all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.
    It COULD all happen within 11 years, but 14 is more likely.
     
  12. Christian Gedge

    Christian Gedge Active Member

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    OK, so you're counting 2000 years from Christ's accession. That's 'date setting' irrespective of the year we think he died.

    Predicting his 1st coming can be deduced from Daniel writings and that is probably how John the Baptist knew when he proclaimed, "The kingdom of God is at hand." However, predicting Christ's 2nd coming is expressly forbidden. You can play that game if thats what smokes your wheels, but I wont.
     
  13. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Quotes?

    Who knows who Benjamin Marshall was?

    1728 was the early post-Reformation period. What recognized leaders of that era are on record as being aware of and affirming him and his teaching?


    Qualifiedly correct; the entire contiguous seventy weeks, with no decapitated 70th week.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I have looked at that and it seems we can't know for sure, either end.
    But for sure the 69th 'week' ended at the death of Jesus, Daniel 9:26a
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    THAT idea is really ridiculous! The 70 weeks started circa 1540?

    Why is it such a problem for you to think that there is a gap in the 490 years of Daniel. It was divided into 3 sections, 2 were concurrent, ending with the death of Jesus and later; the destruction of Jerusalem. But the last 7 years is separated by the fact of a treaty, that we have yet to see.
    The proof of this final 7 years being in the end times, is how Daniel 9:27 splits it into 2 halves and Revelation tells us what will take place in the second half.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  16. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who claimed that?
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You really need to get Chris' book.
     
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  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In 1690 a Bishop by the name of William Lloyd had set this idea forth. And it was challenged in 1726 by a Vicar named Peter Lancaster. As by this time Lloyd had died, a Rector by the name of Benjamin Marshall wrote a powerful answer to Lancaster.

    As quoted by William Watson, Benjamin Marshall said:

    "Those sixty nine Septenaries of Years ended in the year of Christ 32 ... Consequently a Propheitik Week, or one other Septenary of Years is still remaining, and without any Succesion of Time for it in the prophecy. However, this remaining One Week of the Seventy ... can possibly make no more than seventy Weeks ... we are not at a loss for it. Loo for it in the remaining Single Week of the Prophecy distinctly spoken of afterwards ... When the Angel had done with these two Periods of this Prophecy, he afterwards tells the Prophet expressly of another One Week only, distinguishing that more immediately in the Half Part thereof."

    Unless I made a typographical error, this is exactly the words (including even the spelling) of Benjamin Marshall, in his work titled "Three Letters in Vindication of the late Bishop Lloyd's Hypothesis on Daniel's Prophecy of the 70 Weeks" (London, 1728), as quoted by William Watson on page 243 of his monumental work titled "Dispensationalism before Darby."

    But of course, to you, mere Bishops and Rectors are not "leaders," because they did not teach what you want to believe.

    And let us not forget that at about this time William Lowth, B.D., Prebendary of Winchester Cathedral, published what became for many years England’s most widely circulated series of commentaries on the Old Testament prophets.

    In these works he spoke so many times of the prophesied return of "the Jews" to their land, and their eventual restoration to their God after returning there, that it amounted to insisting on the point. The number of times he commented on this in Just one of his many vlumes, his Commentary on the prophet Ezekiel, published in 1723, said it so many times that it took more than 10 pages just to quote them in the appendix to my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which was published late last year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    We have gotten into less important issues. For who taught an idea, or when it was taught, is actually immaterial. The only thing that counts is what God actually said in the Holy Scriptures. So, looking solely at that:

    The seventy weeks were revealed to Daniel in the following words. “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.” (Daniel 9:24)

    First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa' (word number 7620 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. An in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

    Daniel was told, “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.” (Daniel 9:25) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the command until Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

    But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:26)

    Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But according to history, the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

    But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27)

    Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

    But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem, Because you have said, ‘We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.’ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place. Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.”
    Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “On a lofty and high mountain You have set your bed; Even there you went up To offer sacrifice. Also behind the doors and their posts You have set up your remembrance; For you have uncovered yourself to those other than Me, And have gone up to them; You have enlarged your bed And made a covenant with them; You have loved their bed, Where you saw their nudity. You went to the king with ointment, And increased your perfumes; You sent your messengers far off, And even descended to Sheol.”

    So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. And Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant is mentioned.
     
  20. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Apparently these men rejected what is found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

    Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


    Daniel 9:27
    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.


    Why would anyone think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant found in Matthew 26:28, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant?

    .


    .
     
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