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Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by LittleLambofJesus, Aug 15, 2018.

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"

  1. No

    50.0%
  2. Yes

    45.2%
  3. I don't know

    1.6%
  4. Other

    1.6%
  5. Fully fulfilled

    3.2%
  6. Half complete Half Future

    1.6%
  7. All Future

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't understand why you don't understand.
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    If the "hard proof" is your claim that Irenaeus was talking about your version of the pretrib removal of the Church when he said there would be great tribulation after the church is "caught up", I would be very careful about using the word "lie".

    When Grant Jeffrey cut and pasted the writings of the Early Church Fathers, to make your doctrine work, would you call Jeffrey's effort a lie?


    Pretribulationist Revisionism
    (Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
    Pastor Tim Warner
    http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

    .
     
  3. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    At least in the neighborhood of two dozen writers had taught a pre-tribulation rapture before the time your sources claim it was "invented." End of story. And after reviewing their work, I did not see that the one who claimed Grant Jefferies was being dishonest were themselves any more honest than he was.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The problem seems to come from your definition of the word "tribulation".

    Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, there will definitely be "tribulation" for the unbelievers at the Second Coming of Christ.


    However, that is not the same as your claim of a 7 year tribulation period, which occurs right before the Second Coming of Christ.
    Your problem is that there is no 7 year tribulation period found in the Bible.
    It can be produced by adding together 2 of the references to the 42 month period in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

    Your definition of a "pre-tribulation" rapture, does not match the one found in scripture, or the understanding of many others who you claim prove your man-made doctrine.


    I believe the Church will be removed before the "conflagration" at the Second Coming of Christ. (See 2 Peter 3:10-13.)

    However, what I believe does not match your definition of a "pre-trib" removal.

    .
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    [QUOTE="BABerean2, post: 73570216, member: 353202"
    However, what I believe does not match your definition of a "pre-trib" removal.

    .[/QUOTE]
    Nor does it match what the scriptures explicitly teach, in more places than I can count.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Irenaeus wrote:

    And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'
    _______________________________________________________

    Irenaeus, obviously referring to Matthew 24:21, seems to be talking about the rapture taking place before the great tribulation which begins when the Abomination of Desolation is standing in a holy place.

    The pre-trib rapture, in it's traditional concept as meaning before the 70th week begins, would be before the Abomination of Desolation... but it is not exactly the same thing as what Irenaeus wrote.

    As Irenaeus taught, the rapture only has to take place before the Abomination of Desolation, not before the beginning of the 70th week.

    Irenaeus does not rule out that the rapture could occur before the 70th week begins, but his view doesn't mandate it.
     
  7. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    AND, in describing the people who would go through this time, Irenaeus CHANGED his pronouns at this point in the scenario he foresaw. Before this time, he ALWAYS described the people experiencing those times, as "we" or "us," and their belongings as "ours." And after that time, he ALWAYS described the people experiencing those times as "they" or "them," and their belongings as "theirs."

    This PROVES that he really meant what he appeared to have been saying.
     
  8. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Like others, you are assuming that Irenaeus is using the word "tribulation" in the manner that makes your doctrine work.
    Look below at the use of the word "tribulation" in the New Testament.

    On the day that 2 Peter 3:10-13 occurs there will be "tribulation" on this earth that has never been seen before, and will never be seen again.

    This planet is going to burn.


    Mat_13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

    Mat_24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    Mat_24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Mat_24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    Mar_4:17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

    Mar_13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

    Mar_13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

    Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

    Rom_2:9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

    Rom_5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

    Rom_8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    Rom_12:12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

    2Co_1:4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

    2Co_7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

    1Th_3:4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

    2Th_1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

    Rev_1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev_2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

    Rev_2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

    Rev_2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

    Rev_7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    .
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You haven't proved anything to Dr. Thomas Ice, Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

    "
    Irenaeus
    Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: “the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],” as noted below:

    And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

    However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
    "
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    In Irenaus's writing, we should only be concerned with Matthew 24:21 because he appears to be quoting from that passage.

    Mat_24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    In context,

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    ______________________________________________

    So go to Daniel 12:11-12 to see the timeframes and Daniel 12:4-7
    to know that it is at the time of the end when "...many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You are trying to change "great tribulation" into the "great tribulation period of 7 years", in order to make your doctrine work.


    Mat 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


    Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    .
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No not me. I believe the great tribulation lasts 1335 days.

    I view the first 3 years or so of the 7 years as not being tribulation, because the Jews and world will be thinking it has entered the messianic age.

    I say 7 year 70th week, not 7 year tribulation. I disagree with the term 7 year tribulation.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
    This was the 70 week of Daniel, during the first century.

    A future 70th week of Daniel is one of the pillars of modern Dispensational Theology.
    It requires a person to believe the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah, and then the angel failed to even mention the New Covenant.


    .
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    But you agree that I am not saying 7 year tribulation or tribulation period, right?

    The term "new covenant" is not in the text of Daniel 9, right? Nor even described. It can't be, because otherwise Satan with fore knowledge of what the new covenant would be based on, would not have taken part in having Jesus crucified. 1Corinthians2:7-8.

    Jesus's death and resurrection, once understood, spelled the end for Satan, and removed Satan's hold on the human race as hostages.

    The covenant in Daniel 9 that will be confirmed for the 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant, meaningful to the Jews in their belief, and is the covenant in Daniel 9 John confessed in his prayer that his ancestors transgressed.

    The 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people, and Jerusalem.
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    A lot of Partial Preterists see that as fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem.............

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Matthew 24:
    6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
    See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass,
    but the end<5056> is not yet.
    16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
    19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

    Mark 13:
    13 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
    14 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
    17 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

    Luke 21:
    9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
    for these things must come to pass first, but the end<5056> is not immediate.”
    21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart,.....
    23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
    For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. --
    Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ;
    the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament,
    and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived

    Dan 11:15
    “So the king of the North/Israel/Gentiles shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city; and the forces[fn] of the South[Judah/Judea] shall not withstand him.
    Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist.

    Jer 19:9
    “And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters,
    and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies
    and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair.” '

    Vids best viewed full screen..........


    ....................................

    ....................................

    ....................................



    .
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I have not yet presented this evidence to him. As far as I know, I am the first person to do an exhaustive analysis of the pronouns used in these twelve chapters. But my analysis was indeed exhaustive. I went line by line through the entire twelve chapters of this end time scenario presented by Irenaeus.
     
  17. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you delay? Pre-Trib Research Center validation would be a significant coup for you.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was recorded before the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel.
    Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel appeared.

    God's plan is not changed based on what Satan knows.
    God revealed his destruction in Genesis 3:15.

    .
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    That there would be a new covenant, yes. But not the information of how it would come about. It was closed from anyone's understanding until after the resurrection. This is very important to know.

    Before being handed over to be crucified, Jesus told the disciples what was going to happen to him, in Luke 18:31-34, below. Then
    after the resurrection, in Luke 21:44-45, he reminded them that he had told them before hand but it was closed to their understanding.


    Before being handed over to be crucified:

    Luke 18:
    31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

    32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

    33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

    34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
    ______________________________________________________

    After the resurrection and Jesus meeting with the disciples:

    Luke 21:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    _____________________________________________________

    So while in Jeremiah 31, it was stated there would be a new covenant, it was not understood nor told to anyone how it would come about. The disciples didn't even understand it until after the resurrection,

    Which in 1Corinthians2:7-8, it says the princes of this world would not have crucified Jesus had they known. Satan up to that time was counting on God not destroying him - because it meant that God in fairness would have to destroy all of mankind as well for sin.

    But when Jesus took away the sins of mankind, that took away Satan's equal justice card he was holding. The resurrection of Jesus doomed him, because it completed the new covenant in making man free from the power of sin.
    ______________________________________________________
    That the messiah would be cutoff in Daniel 9:26 was not known by anyone to be the basis for the new covenant until after the resurrection, 400 years later. The messiah's resurrection was not revealed in Daniel 9, either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  20. Dr. D Bunker

    Dr. D Bunker Member

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    bye
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
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