Where is "go to heaven" in the Bible?

[trophy33]

Then let me put it to you this way.

In the Bible God simply creates everything by saying "Let there be."
But to bring fallen Adam and his race, plus Israel with all her historical problems, and the church with all her historical problems,
to a point where there is a new universe in which righteousness dwells -

Why didn't God simply say "Let there be New Jerusalem" ?
Why so many thousands of years to fulfill His purpose when He can simply say "Let there be" ?

I do not think Genesis is literal. The universe was formed during billions of years, together with life. Our subjective 3D perception of time is not relevant (except of to us).

Therefore, there is again no problem to solve.

 

[trophy33]

Good morning myst33.
Well, I try sometimes to be all the things to all people that I may save some.

Now, could you tell me the "wrong presupposition" that my preaching was built upon please, succintly.
Use as many words as you need to make it crystal clear to me. I will read it all if it is in the right spirit.

For example on a later addition to biblical text. Or on false dichotomy ("either-or"). Or on unrelated things. Or on physical perception of heaven ("chandeliers, mansions..."). Or on a misunderstanding of God's way of existence ("effort, skills...). Or, the most current one, literal reading of creation story.

 

[oikonomia]

I do not think Genesis is literal. The universe was formed during billions of years, together with life. Our subjective 3D perception of time is not relevant (except of to us).

Therefore, there is again no problem to solve.

Regardless how long it took for creation when God said "Let there be . . . ".
I ask you now why didn't God simply say "Let there be the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem"?

The story of God outworking His purpose in building the eternal city is frought with obstacles.

The first is Adam's fall - an obstacle for God to overcome.
Another is the death of faithful Abel - an obstacle for God to overcome.
Another is a true libertarian society morally rotting to the point of needing God's judgment - another empediment.
Another is Abraham's unable to have a child of promise - another wall God has to branch over.
Another is Isaac wanting to say his wife is his sister - another moral failure for God to rectify.
Another then is Jacob's immoral conniving to steal the firstborn's birthright - an obstacle to God's program.

I could go on and on and on through thousands years until the end of history in Revelation.

If God simply called creation into being (allbeit it taking billions) why doesn't He simply call into existence from
the ruination of sin and death and say "Let there be the New Jerusalem" solving the problem in the twinkling of an eye?

 

[oikonomia]

For example on a later addition to biblical text. Or on false dichotomy ("either-or").

I see a number of reputable English translations which include "the Son of Man which is in heaven" or some equivalent.
On your say so without more study I'll reserve opinion when such versions include it.

King James Version
New King James
Amplified Bible
American Standard Version
Aramiac Bible in Plain English
Duay-Rheims Bible
English Revised Version
International Standard Version
Literal Standard Version
Majority Standard Version
New Heart English Bible
Webster's Bible Translation
Weymouth New Testament
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation

Or on unrelated things. Or on physical perception of heaven ("chandeliers, mansions...").

In the books on Heaven you'll read much more than just about chandaliers.
My point of is that it is not in the Bible but things like this and more abound in pop Christian literature.

Or on a misunderstanding of God's way of existence ("effort, skills...). Or, the most current one, literal reading of creation story.

Excuse me.
Paul says that God WROUGHT something in His apostles for an example.
God working and laboring on something seems to be the meaning.

Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge. (2 Cor. 5:5)

wroughtin British English​

(rɔːt )
VERB
1. archaic a past tense and past participle of work
ADJECTIVE
2. metallurgy
shaped by hammering or beating
3. (often in combination)
formed, fashioned, or worked as specified
well-wrought
4.
decorated or made with delicate care


Meriam-Webster DIctionary
wrought

adjective​

: worked into shape by artistry or effort
carefully wrought essays

: elaborately embellished : ORNAMENTED

: processed for use : MANUFACTURED
wrought silk

: beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED

—used of metals

 

[oikonomia]

I do not think Genesis is literal. The universe was formed during billions of years, together with life. Our subjective 3D perception of time is not relevant (except of to us).

Therefore, there is again no problem to solve.

Where in Genesis chapters 1 through 11 do you think like the clock stops
and we are lifted into an existential realm of myth?

I have read it many, many times.
It reads like a seamless flow of history with locations, directions, specific names of countries and rivers.

Am I talking to a modernist here ?

 

[Berserk]

Clare73: "The kingdom of God is here now (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20), within us (Lk 17:21)...
It has entered us (Lk 17:21)."

That's not what Jesus says. "Entos hymon" in Luke 17:21 means "in our midst," not inside us."
The Aramaic for "kingdom" ("malchut") means "realm" well as reign" and that realm is among us.

 

[oikonomia]

Sure. For example:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
2 Cor 5:1

or:
God... has given us ...an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you
1Pt 1:4

Waiting here does not mean being passive, it means that the departure to heaven was still in their future. However, they were already the citizens of heaven, as already said.

Good examples which I might have used myself if I clung to a "go to heaven" mentality.

1.) 2 Cor. 5:1 speaks of a building from God. "From God" simply means God is the source.

2.) Though the usual rendering is something like "eternal in the heavens" look at the closing facts of history.
We see the building coming down out of heaven from God. No?

. . . the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, (Rev. 3:12)

And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, (Rev. 21:10)

The building is coming down from Heaven and from God, isn't she?
If we cling to wanting to remain in heaven forever we will look to see God's masterpiece
desending FROM heaven down from where we desire to stay.

3.) 1 Peter 1:4 does say the unfading imperishable inheritance kept in the heavens.
Does Revelation depict what is kept there staying there?
New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, (Rev. 3:12)
the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, (Rev. 21:10)

What is KEPT for preservation there does not mean it is forever there.

Thoughts ?

 

[oikonomia]

The problem of sin remains with man this side of the grave.

In heaven (assumed as the location of Jesus), which first requires one's death, there is no sin, we are with Jesus in glory and, therefore, there are "problems" no longer.

The problem of sin remains with man this side of the grave, you say.

Now let's see. This means that if I die with certain areas in my Christian life undealt with,
automatically those problems are solved even though I resisted sanctification.

Now let's see. The Apostle John taught that there is the possibility that a Christian could be "put to shame" at the Lord's coming.
It is important that the proper translation does not have the sense of the believer will only FEEL shame.
No, rather he may be PUT to shame.

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

Do you have the confidence that the chronic backslider short on confession, short on forgiving others, short on sanctification, short on repentance over known sin in his life, that he may have all boldness at His coming? I mean he says in himself "Although I have not let
the Lord come into every part of my heart ALL problems about this are now GONE."

If so why does the Lord Jesus reward some who are saved and others who are saved are not rewarded yet suffer loss?

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Your analysis ?

 

[oikonomia]

While we wait for possible replies, please everyone enjoy a singing version of
Revelation 21:10-12, 14 about the sign of New Jerusalem coming down from heaven from God.

 

[Clare73]

The problem of sin remains with man this side of the grave, you say.

Now let's see. This means that if I die with certain areas in my Christian life undealt with,
automatically those problems are solved even though I resisted sanctification.

If you resisted sanctification, you were not born again.
For in the born again, God works in you both to will and to do (Php 2:13).

Now let's see. The Apostle John taught that there is the possibility that a Christian could be "put to shame" at the Lord's coming.
It is important that the proper translation does not have the sense of the believer will only FEEL shame.
No, rather he may be PUT to shame.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

1 Jn 2:29 - "everyone who does what is right has been born of him."

The converse of the above being that those ashamed of their wrong doing were not born again.

Do you have the confidence that the chronic backslider short on confession, short on forgiving others, short on sanctification, short on repentance over known sin in his life, that he may have all boldness at His coming? I mean he says in himself "Although I have not let
the Lord come into every part of my heart ALL problems about this are now GONE."

If so why does the Lord Jesus reward some who are saved and others who are saved are not rewarded yet suffer loss?
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)
Your analysis ?

1 Co 3:13-15 is not about one's salvation but about the quality of one's work, durable or worthless, pure Christian doctrine and living, or weak insipid teaching and life.
The worthless Christian life will result in no reward (those crowns we will cast before the golden sea?), but not in loss of salvation.

 

[trophy33]

Good examples which I might have used myself if I clung to a "go to heaven" mentality.

1.) 2 Cor. 5:1 speaks of a building from God. "From God" simply means God is the source.

2.) Though the usual rendering is something like "eternal in the heavens" look at the closing facts of history.
We see the building coming down out of heaven from God. No?

. . . the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, (Rev. 3:12)

And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, (Rev. 21:10)

The building is coming down from Heaven and from God, isn't she?
If we cling to wanting to remain in heaven forever we will look to see God's masterpiece
desending FROM heaven down from where we desire to stay.

3.) 1 Peter 1:4 does say the unfading imperishable inheritance kept in the heavens.
Does Revelation depict what is kept there staying there?
New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, (Rev. 3:12)
the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, (Rev. 21:10)

What is KEPT for preservation there does not mean it is forever there.

Thoughts ?

Revelation is symbolic by its nature, its not a literal genre. However, the words of Paul and Peter are literal, in their context. No reason to put those together.

The New Jerusalem represents church, not a literal city.

 

[trophy33]

Where in Genesis chapters 1 through 11 do you think like the clock stops
and we are lifted into an existential realm of myth?

I do not know, but Genesis 1 and 2 are clearly full of symbolism and metaphors.

Am I talking to a modernist here ?

I do not know what that is.

 

[trophy33]

I ask you now why didn't God simply say "Let there be the new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem"?

These are symbolic, not literal. And already fulfilled. Therefore I am not sure what sense to make of your question.

Anyway, our perception of time is not the same as of God. From his point of view, the whole universe has always been already completed, the past, the future, He is not moving inside space-time, like we are, waiting for some process to finish.

If you are interested in physics a bit, you know that our future already exists, we just did not move into its position, yet.

 

[oikonomia]

If you resisted sanctification, you were not born again.

How many Christians do you know who are surely born again
who live like the devil year after year?

Now I do not mean having failure here and there.
I mean dear brothers and sisters who just stay in a ungodly lifestyle?

Be honest.
Are they all false believers who have never been regenerated?

For in the born again, God works in you both to will and to do (Php 2:13).

Yes. But notice that passage embedded in an EXHORTATION to cooperate, to "go along" with God.
If they could not FAIL to go along because cooperation is automatic, when would Paul need to nudge them?
Read again please, enjoying it as you read.

So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:12,13)

1.) The apostles charge is that they must continue to obey - even as you have always obeyed,
Ie. "Do not stop now being obedient."
That implies strongly the possibility that they could change and decide to be disobedient.

2.) If thier cooperation is automatic upon being born again, they why the need for "fear and trembling?"

3.) The incentative for them TO cooperate is that God is working in them to will and to do His good pleasure.
If all this cooperation were entirely automatic there would be no need for Paul to exhort them as if an alternative
path could be taken.

There is indeed a mingling of God and man here. But man is exhorted to let it happen cooperatively.

1 Jn 2:29 - "everyone who does what is right has been born of him."

The converse of the above being that those ashamed of their wrong doing were not born again.

The apostle John was surely "born again". (1 John 1:1,2)
The audience he speaks to are also surely all "born again." (1 John 2:12-14)

Yet he uses the pronoun "WE".

And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

1 Co 3:13-15 is not about one's salvation but about the quality of one's work, durable or worthless, pure Christian doctrine and living, or weak insipid teaching and life.
The worthless Christian life will result in no reward (those crowns we will cast before the golden sea?), but not in loss of salvation.

If a saved believer at the start of the millennial kingdom following the judgment seat of Christ is to "suffer loss" then
such a one cannot say any residual problem in his Christian life is totally over now that Jesus has come back for him.

 

[oikonomia]

These are symbolic, not literal. And already fulfilled. Therefore I am not sure what sense to make of your question.

I agree that the Revelation was made known to us "by signs" (Rev. 1:1)
I agree if you mean that from God's transcendent standpoint over time, His view is that it is already all accomplished.

Nevertheless, of all people Paul too had this view and used the past tense, seeing things through God's eyes.
Ie. And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30)

On the other hand of practicality he wrote that at the present time we walk by faith and not by appearance..
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (2 Cor. 5:7)
For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance. (Rom. 8:24,25)

Anyway, our perception of time is not the same as of God. From his point of view, the whole universe has always been already completed, the past, the future, He is not moving inside space-time, like we are, waiting for some process to finish.

If you are interested in physics a bit, you know that our future already exists, we just did not move into its position, yet.

In order for the Triune God to fulfill His eternal purpose, He had to both penetrate into TIME and go through process in TIME.

Here are two important steps in TIME in which He passed through a process:

Incarnation - And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (John 1:14)

In resurrecion becomming a life giving Spirit - the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 145:45b)

These two great became needed to accomplish His eternal purpose happened in history, in time and space just as we live.
They also reveal God passing through a process, not to mention His human living after incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. All these steps took place in world history and thus in time.
Do you agree?

 

[trophy33]

I agree that the Revelation was made known to us "by signs" (Rev. 1:1)
I agree if you mean that from God's transcendent standpoint over time, His view is that it is already all accomplished.

I think that "new heavens and earth" and "the new Jerusalem" are already accomplished even from our point of view. It all happened in the 1st century, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, of all people Paul too had this view and used the past tense, seeing things through God's eyes.
Ie. And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom. 8:30)

On the other hand of practicality he wrote that at the present time we walk by faith and not by appearance..
(For we walk by faith, not by appearance) (2 Cor. 5:7)
For we were saved in hope. But a hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly await it through endurance. (Rom. 8:24,25)


In order for the Triune God to fulfill His eternal purpose, He had to both penetrate into TIME and go through process in TIME.

Here are two important steps in TIME in which He passed through a process:

Incarnation - And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (John 1:14)

In resurrecion becomming a life giving Spirit - the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 145:45b)

These two great became needed to accomplish His eternal purpose happened in history, in time and space just as we live.
They also reveal God passing through a process, not to mention His human living after incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. All these steps took place in world history and thus in time.
Do you agree?

I agree that the Son of God came from heaven into our low, primitive realm and became a human. How that works is a mystery, because our realm exists in Him.

 

[oikonomia]

If you are interested in physics a bit, you know that our future already exists, we just did not move into its position, yet.

For some interesting discussion involving hard sciences and faith these are Christian scientists I sometimes consult.
Oxford Mathamatician John Lenox, cosmologist Hugh Ross, organic chemist James Tour.
Even Orthodox Jew from MIT Gerald Shroeder has some interesting things on time and Genesis.

 

[oikonomia]

I think "new heavens and earth" and "the new Jerusalem" are already accomplished even from our point of view. It all happened in the 1st century, in my opinion.

So we practically are now living in a universe in which there is no sin and death, no sorrow or pain or tears?
You may have more faith than I do there.

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away. (Rev. 21:4-6)

I agree that the Son of God came from heaven to our realm and became a human. How that works is a mystery.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:16)

Is that something like you mean?
I agree the process of the Triune God into man and man brought back into God is mysterious.
Yet it is most real of all real things.

 

[trophy33]

So we practically are now living in a universe in which there is no sin and death, no sorrow or pain or tears?
You may have more faith than I do there.

And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away. (Rev. 21:4-6)

Revelation is symbolic, therefore it cannot be read literally/physically.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory. (1 Tim. 3:16)

Is that something like you mean?
I agree the process of the Triune God into man and man brought back into God is mysterious.
Yet it is most real of all real things.

I can understand that a higher dimension being can step into a lower dimension, like angels can become visible and interact with this world. However, I do not understand how God can step into a universe that exists in Him. Its like me going into my own thought. This is a mystery, at least for now.

 

[Clare73]

How many Christians do you know who are surely born again
who live like the devil year after year?
Now I do not mean having failure here and there.
I mean dear brothers and sisters who just stay in a ungodly lifestyle?
Be honest.
Are they all false believers who have never been regenerated?

Their lives evidence no Holy Spirit, which lack thereof is evidence they are not born again.

Yes. But notice that passage embedded in an EXHORTATION to cooperate, to "go along" with God.
If they could not FAIL to go along because cooperation is automatic, when would Paul need to nudge them?
Read again please, enjoying it as you read.

So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but now much rather in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure. (Phil 2:12,13)
1.) The apostles charge is that they must continue to obey - even as you have always obeyed,
Ie. "Do not stop now being obedient."
That implies strongly the possibility that they could change and decide to be disobedient.

Or it implies that pagans as new Christians needed a lot of instruction regarding and encouragement in being obedient to a whole new paradigm.
There was a whole lotta' turning around going on.

2.) If thier cooperation is automatic upon being born again, they why the need for "fear and trembling?"

As former pagans, they much needed instruction regarding in what they were to cooperate. And then they must understand it well enough to know how to apply it. That didn't take place over night with no culture around them to model it for them.
Paul was planting former-pagan Christians among more pagans.

3.) The incentative for them TO cooperate is that God is working in them to will and to do His good pleasure.
If all this cooperation were entirely automatic there would be no need for Paul to exhort them as if an alternative
path could be taken.

Salvation is not a carefree ride. The goal is guaranteed, the power is guaranteed, but direction and execution by us is also required.
New babes, formerly pagans, need to be reminded and exhorted to this so that the power which operates only on the rails does not find them off the rails. That required of them learning and a whole new paradigm shift.

There is indeed a mingling of God and man here. But man is exhorted to let it happen cooperatively.
The apostle John was surely "born again". (1 John 1:1,2)
The audience he speaks to are also surely all "born again." (1 John 2:12-14)
Yet he uses the pronoun "WE".
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested,
we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. (1 John 2:28)

Yes, John was subject to the same exhortations that he gave.

If a saved believer at the start of the millennial kingdom following the judgment seat of Christ is to "suffer loss" then
such a one cannot say any residual problem in his Christian life is totally over now that Jesus has come back for him.

The loss has nothing to do with a supposed "millennial kingdom" derived from literal interpretation of prophecies which God said he speaks in riddles and not clearly (Nu:12:8), and has everything to do with one's eternal reward in the next life (after the resurrection).