Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

[Riberra]

The Abomination of Desolation happens at the First and Second Seal. The Anti-Christ is brought forth and CONQUERS then he KILLS MANY in Seal number 2.So Satan is cast out of Heaven in or right before Rev. 6, it just isn't spoken about so much.

The moment when Satan will be cast out of Heaven down to Earth is mentioned in Revelation 12.

But we understand, the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ/Beast are given enormous powers via Satan. Remember Daniel chapter 8 says he has great power, but NOT OF HIS OWN.

The moment that Satan will give power to the Beast and the False prophet is mentioned in Revelation 13.

 

[keras]

If all the wicked all around the Earth will be burned to ashes at the 6 TH Seal then there will be no need for Jesus to return [2 Thessalonians 1:7-8]

When it is understood what it is that the Lord will use on His terrible Day of wrath, by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, then you should know it will only be a portion of the globe where most people will die, the rest will be badly affected, but most will survive. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and Amos 1 say this fire the Lord will send will depopulate the Middle east region.
An explosion on the suns surface will send a mass of superheated plasma toward the earth. Isaiah 30:26 God will direct it to do exactly what He wants and then it quickly passes. Over 100 prophesies describe this Day of disaster, like Amos 5:18-20, a Day that cannot be reconciled with the glorious Return.

 

[Major1]

Yes, the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is a one Day event. But that is not the Day of Jesus' Return. At His Return, He is seen by the world and He destroys the armies at Jerusalem, chaining up Satan for the 1000 years.
But the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath happens at the Sixth Seal, as we are plainly told in Revelation 6:17 It will be the worldwide disaster that sets the scene for all that must happen before the Return.

It's a mistake to confuse the two Days of the Lord; first His wrath, where His is not seen, the other, His glorious Return, on the great Day of Almighty God. Revelation 16:14b

Nope!

It is a complete and utter mistake to eliminate the ONE event that is the catalyst for all the others.

My point is that just as the RAPTURE of the church is the end of the day of grace it also marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord. In other words, the one event of the RAPTURE seems to do two things.........
1). it serves as the closing of one day.
2). and the beginning of the other.

If that is true, it gives us some very positive and definite teaching along the line that the church will be taken out of the world before the day of trial and trouble overtakes the world. Paul is telling the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord is going to come, and this follows immediately the passage which dealt with the coming of Christ for His church. In 1 Thessalonians 5 it is revealed that the Day of the Lord comes suddenly and unexpectedly. It is described: ........
“the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.”

A thief in the night comes unheralded. There are no signs that pertain to a thief.

Armageddon is a 3 1/2 year War ending at Armageddon which will be the DAY of God's wrath.

 

[Riberra]

When it is understood what it is that the Lord will use on His terrible Day of wrath, by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, then you should know it will only be a portion of the globe where most people will die, the rest will be badly affected, but most will survive. Psalms 83, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and Amos 1 say this fire the Lord will send will depopulate the Middle east region.
An explosion on the suns surface will send a mass of superheated plasma toward the earth. Isaiah 30:26 God will direct it to do exactly what He wants and then it quickly passes. Over 100 prophesies describe this Day of disaster, like Amos 5:18-20, a Day that cannot be reconciled with the glorious Return.

Effectively Revelation 6:12-17 cannot be reconciled with the Glorious Return mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and Revelation 19:11-21 ....and i never said that it was.

 

[keras]

It is a complete and utter mistake to eliminate the ONE event that is the catalyst for all the others.

The big mistake is to believe something that isn't Biblical. A rapture removal to heaven is nowhere to be found and contradicts what we are told about the Lord's plans for His people.
The Day of the Lord's wrath is a one Day event: Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 47:9, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, plus. The 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl judgements of the Great Tribulation come later, during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

 

[Revealing Times]

The Wrath described in the OT prophecies will happen at His Coming.

The 7 Vials of the wrath of God described in Revelation 16 will be poured out after that the Beast will have slain mostly all the Christians who will refuse to take the mark and worship the Beast.

The Rapture and "Second Coming" (if that is what you want to call it since he came back from heaven to see the Apostles already) are two different events.

The Seven Vials happen before Jesus Returns, EXCEPT for the Seventh and final Vial which is Jesus touching foot on to the Mt. of Olives and then Defeating the Anti-Christ and all his minions.

Most all of the Christians come back from Heaven with Jesus. The ones who became Christians after he Rapture are those who were Beheaded.

 

[Revealing Times]

A year is the time it takes for earth to make one orbit around the sun. A day is the amount of time it takes for the earth to revolve one time on its axis. Thus, a year and a day has meaning as long as there is an earth and sun.

The Earth and Sun came into existence 9.2 Billion years after the Universe began. Gods FIRST DAY was not designed around something that did not exist.

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome} from an unused root meaning to be hot; TWOT - 852; n m

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year



—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Times Yom is used in the Bible
—Exhaustive Concordance (KJV Translation Frequency & Location)


AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; Total = 2274

The Universe is not 6000 years old, and God did not tell us He created the Universe in 6 Days. As is pointed out above, the word YOM has man different meanings. We understand there was TOTAL DARKNESS for the first 400 Million years, hence the second verse says " and there was DARKNESS on the face of the Deep. This is why Evening comes before Morning, the Stars first started forming at the 400 Million year Mark.

It is not Gods fault we do not understand YOM has about 50 different meanings, it is our because we try to put God in a corner. He told us the Creation from His viewpoint, not ours of course.

 

[Major1]

The big mistake is to believe something that isn't Biblical. A rapture removal to heaven is nowhere to be found and contradicts what we are told about the Lord's plans for His people.
The Day of the Lord's wrath is a one Day event: Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 47:9, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8, plus. The 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl judgements of the Great Tribulation come later, during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Nope!............1 Thess. 5:9...........
"For God has not destined us (Christians) for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".

 

[keras]

For God has not destined us (Christians) for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ".

That is a perfectly true and correct statement.
Exactly where is a rapture to heaven mentioned there?
We won't be affected by the Lord's Day of wrath, we are told to call out to Him on that terrible Day. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 and He promises protection. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13 and many others.
We Christians have Jesus' salvation. Be careful to not lose it when the rapture you believe in doesn't happen.

 

[Douggg]

The Earth and Sun came into existence 9.2 Billion years after the Universe began. Gods FIRST DAY was not designed around something that did not exist.

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome} from an unused root meaning to be hot; TWOT - 852; n m

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) as a division of time
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) time, period (general)
1e) year



—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

Times Yom is used in the Bible
—Exhaustive Concordance (KJV Translation Frequency & Location)


AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; Total = 2274

The Universe is not 6000 years old, and God did not tell us He created the Universe in 6 Days. As is pointed out above, the word YOM has man different meanings. We understand there was TOTAL DARKNESS for the first 400 Million years, hence the second verse says " and there was DARKNESS on the face of the Deep. This is why Evening comes before Morning, the Stars first started forming at the 400 Million year Mark.

It is not Gods fault we do not understand YOM has about 50 different meanings, it is our because we try to put God in a corner. He told us the Creation from His viewpoint, not ours of course.

Where are you getting these millions and billions numbers from ?

 

[Revealing Times]

Where are you getting these millions and billions numbers from ?

Common Sense. Anyone that tells me the earth is 6000 years old and God created it in 6 literal days, I do not take them as a serious thinker.

And I do not believe in Evolution, its a lie. God Created the universe in a 13.7 Billion year time frame.

 

[Riberra]

The Rapture and "Second Coming" (if that is what you want to call it since he came back from heaven to see the Apostles already) are two different events.

The rapture [the caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air ]will happen at His Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The Seven Vials happen before Jesus Returns, EXCEPT for the Seventh and final Vial which is Jesus touching foot on to the Mt. of Olives and then Defeating the Anti-Christ and all his minions.

Most all of the Christians come back from Heaven with Jesus.

It is written that Jesus will come back from Heaven with those who SLEEP in Christ ie the SOULS of the Dead Believers who are in Heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

You have fallen into John Nelson Darby's teaching who promoted that the caught up [rapture] is separated from Jesus' Coming ...while in reality Paul teach that the caught up [rapture]to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air is tied to the Coming of Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

 

[Revealing Times]

The rapture [the caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds in the air ]will happen at His Coming.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Well you can call it what you want, where is the SECOND COMING called the SECOND COMING in the Bible ? NOWHERE....Therein lies your problem. You do not understand that Jesus calls us to him. He comes for the Church, then calls us to him, we then die, and go to meet the Lord in the air. BUT..............Of course you want to leave those other verses/scriptures off for some reason.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the TRUMP SOUNDS (Jesus Shouts) and the DEAD IN CHRIST ARISE FIRST !!! Then we change in the Twinkling of an Eye !! ALL AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.....Come on man. This is elementary.

You and others can continue to put forth this false narrative that Jesus comes back a Second Time ONLY and that YOU KNOW THIS to be factual, but its not scriptural. I can prove in John chapter 20 Jesus went to Heaven and returned again already. Jesus comes back to call his Church to Heaven, he meets us IN THE AIR.....That is the Rapture. This is simple stuff man.

Then Jesus returns from Heaven with the Church/His Bride, in Rev. 19. This is not even debatable. I really wonder why people are still on the "milk": and not partaking in the "Meat" that God is trying to provide us.

It is written that Jesus will come back from Heaven with those who SLEEP in Christ ie the SOULS of the Dead Believers who are in Heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There are no Souls in Heaven except the Saints of Israel who were in the Grave when Jesus was Crucified and the thief on the cross with Jesus. We understand all about what happens at the Rapture !!

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now please tell me why SLEEPING is thought of as being ACTIVE IN HEAVEN ? And even if it was true that Paul was saying some slept, whilst they were actually in Heaven, ( Which can not be the case because of these two verses, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 ABOVE ) that doesn't change what happens to those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN when Jesus comes to call us to Haven. We must CHANGE in the Twinkling of an eye, from a corruptible body to an incorruptuble body. We die, then go to meet the Lord Jesus in the Air, (The Flesh body changes to a Spirit body) we travel to Heaven, Marry the Lamb, THEN RETURN with Jesus IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, to defeat the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

Not being overly critical, but this stuff is Christianity 101. I can not see why Christians who have been Christians for years can not see that which to me is obvious.

 

[Douggg]

And I do not believe in Evolution, its a lie. God Created the universe in a 13.7 Billion year time frame.

Where are you coming up with 13.7 billions years?

 

[Major1]

That is a perfectly true and correct statement.
Exactly where is a rapture to heaven mentioned there?
We won't be affected by the Lord's Day of wrath, we are told to call out to Him on that terrible Day. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 and He promises protection. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, 1 Corinthians 10:13 and many others.
We Christians have Jesus' salvation. Be careful to not lose it when the rapture you believe in doesn't happen.

My dear friend........we are not saved by the Rapture which is why no one who has heard the gospel today and refused it can be saved after the Rapture.

The nature of the Tribulation relates to Israel and Gentiles, not the Church which is why the Rapture must take place. There are several things to consider about a Pretribulation Rapture.

No O.T. passage on the Tribulation mentions the Church.
No N.T. passage on the Tribulation mentions the Church.
The church is not appointed to wrath. It is promised salvation from the wrath to come.
The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance form "the hour of trial."
It is characteristic of God to deliver believers before divine wrath and judgment.
The rapture of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Second Coming after the Tribulation.

Pretribulationism does not confuse terms like "saints" (general) with terms like "Church" (specific).
The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the Church.
Pretribulationism distinguishes between general tribulation and the Great Tribulation.
Pretribulationism is the only view that uses a literal interpretation of all N.T. and O.T. passages on the Great Tribulation.
If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, there will be no mortals left to populate the Millennial Kingdom.
At the rapture, the church goes to the Father's house (John 14:3), not back to earth again as posttribulationists hold. Since the first sixty-nine weeks of Daniel were subject to literal fulfillment, the final (seventieth) week will have a similar fulfillment. All seventy weeks of Daniel are totally in reference to Israel and her relation to Gentile powers and the rejection of Israel's Messiah, (i.e., no reference to the church).

 

[Revealing Times]

Where are you coming up with 13.7 billions years?

It's been well known for a long while, but NASA recently sent a Satellite called the WMAP that uses Microwaves (just like Radar can see images, same thing) out to probe the universe. It mapped out the Universe from the beginning of time....So we know exactly how old the Universe is, 13.7 Billion Years Old.

By the way, what they call "Quantum Fluctuations" is God. It is a force of Nature. Inflation followed with an afterglow that lasted 380,000 years, followed by 400 Million years of Darkness, then the first stars came into being at the 400 Million year mark. Thus the Evening (Darkness) was first, followed by the Morning (Light/Stars) and the Earth and Sun came into existence at the 4.5 Billion year BC mark.
=================================
Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe
The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is a NASA Explorer mission that launched June 2001 to make fundamental measurements of cosmology -- the study of the properties of our universe as a whole. WMAP has been stunningly successful, producing our new Standard Model of Cosmology. WMAP's data stream has ended. Full analysis of the data is now complete. Publications have been submitted as of 12/20/2012.

WMAP TEAM RECEIVES THE 2012 GRUBER COSMOLOGY PRIZE

"The Gruber Foundation proudly presents the 2012 Cosmology Prize to Charles Bennett and the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe team for their exquisite measurements of anisotropies in the relic radiation from the Big Bang---the Cosmic Microwave Background. These measurements have helped to secure rigorous constraints on the origin, content, age, and geometry of the Universe, transforming our current paradigm of structure formation from appealing scenario into precise science."

For more information about the prize visit: 2012 Gruber Cosmology Prize Press Release

WMAP's Top Ten

The WMAP science team has…

1. ... has put the "precision" in "precision cosmology" by reducing the allowed volume of cosmological parameters by a factor in excess of 68,000. The three most highly cited physics and astronomy papers published in the new millennium are WMAP scientific papers--- reflecting WMAP's enormous impact.
   
   
2. …mapped the pattern of tiny fluctuations in the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation (the oldest light in the universe) and produced the first fine-resolution (0.2 degree) full-sky map of the microwave sky.
   
   
3. …determined the universe to be 13.77 billion years old to within a half percent.
   
   
4. …nailed down the curvature of space to within 0.4% of "flat" Euclidean.
   
   
5. …determined that ordinary atoms (also called baryons) make up only 4.6% of the universe.
   
   
6. …completed a census of the universe and finds that dark matter (matter not made up of atoms) is 24.0%
   
   
7. …determined that dark energy, in the form of a cosmological constant, makes up 71.4% of the universe, causing the expansion rate of the universe to speed up. - "Lingering doubts about the existence of dark energy and the composition of the universe dissolved when the WMAP satellite took the most detailed picture ever of the cosmic microwave background (CMB)." - Science Magazine 2003, "Breakthrough of the Year" article
8. … mapped the polarization of the microwave radiation over the full sky and discovered that the universe was reionized earlier than previously believed. - "WMAP scores on large-scale structure. By measuring the polarization in the CMB it is possible to look at the amplitude of the fluctuations of density in the universe that produced the first galaxies. That is a real breakthrough in our understanding of the origin of structure." - ScienceWatch: "What's Hot in Physics", Simon Mitton, Mar./Apr. 2008.
9. …detected that the amplitude of the variations in the density of the universe on big scales is slightly larger than smaller scales. This, along with other results, supports "inflation", the idea is that the universe underwent a dramatic period of expansion, growing by more than a trillion trillion fold in less than a trillionth of a trillionth of a second. Tiny fluctuations were generated during this expansion that eventually grew to form galaxies.
   
   
10. … determined that the distribution of these fluctuations follows a bell curve with the same properties across the sky, and that there are equal numbers of hot and cold spots in the map. The simplest version of the inflation idea predicted these properties and remarkably, WMAP’s precision measurement of the properties of the fluctuations has confirmed these predictions, in detail.
    

Science proves that there is a God, if we allow it to, but we are seen as cra cra by most if we say the universe is 6000 years old. I use science to prove God to people.

"There was DARKNESS on the face of the Deep" and that is exactly what this MAP Shows, 400 Million years of Darkness.

 

[Major1]

Common Sense. Anyone that tells me the earth is 6000 years old and God created it in 6 literal days, I do not take them as a serious thinker.

And I do not believe in Evolution, its a lie. God Created the universe in a 13.7 Billion year time frame.

Very interesting. You reject evolution but then accept that the creation is 13.7 billion years old.

Isn't that a contradiction of terms.

 

[Revealing Times]

Very interesting. You reject evolution but then accept that the creation is 13.7 billion years old.

Isn't that a contradiction of terms.

No sir, because it is true.

I have a "Crude" post in another section ON THIS SITE. POST #20 is very detailed but it was when I first got this message/understanding from God. Read it and reply there seeing as we are probably getting some what off subject here. I explain my understanding of the 13.7 Billion years of Creation BY GOD.
Contradictions between Big B. & Ev. theories with Bible

Just like the Rapture, we have to be factual, then we can reach people better.

God Bless....Breakfast time.

 

[Douggg]

Science proves that there is a God, if we allow it to, but we are seen as cra cra by most if we say the universe is 6000 years old. I use science to prove God to people.

"There was DARKNESS on the face of the Deep" and that is exactly what this MAP Shows, 400 Million years of Darkness.

I use bible prophecy because the evidence is before our eyes.

I would not put any stock into a source that says the universe is 13.7 billion years old. But thanks for revealing your source.

That there was darkness on the face of the deep and the world was void without form - to me indicates that there was primordial earth to the present earth, which the dinosaurs lived, some of which were the product of the first interference of the fallen angels into DNA altering, that resulted in creatures of violence, i.e. T-Rex,- which God destroyed that world leaving it void without form.

What's any of this have to do with eschatology?

 

[Riberra]

Well you can call it what you want, where is the SECOND COMING called the SECOND COMING in the Bible ? NOWHERE....Therein lies your problem. You do not understand that Jesus calls us to him. He comes for the Church, then calls us to him, we then die, and go to meet the Lord in the air. BUT..............Of course you want to leave those other verses/scriptures off for some reason.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice the TRUMP SOUNDS (Jesus Shouts) and the DEAD IN CHRIST ARISE FIRST !!! Then we change in the Twinkling of an Eye !! ALL AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.....Come on man. This is elementary.

I have left nothing ,all that is tied to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned in verse 15
1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

You and others can continue to put forth this false narrative that Jesus comes back a Second Time ONLY and that YOU KNOW THIS to be factual, but its not scriptural. I can prove in John chapter 20 Jesus went to Heaven and returned again already.

At this point Jesus have not ascended to Heaven yet...Jesus ascended to Heaven 40 Days later.
John 20 is about Jesus' resurrection after that Jesus was 3 days in the grave that is basic Bible 101...

Jesus comes back to call his Church to Heaven, he meets us IN THE AIR.....That is the Rapture. This is simple stuff man.
Then Jesus returns from Heaven with the Church/His Bride, in Rev. 19. This is not even debatable. I really wonder why people are still on the "milk": and not partaking in the "Meat" that God is trying to provide us.

The bulk of the Church is already in Heaven ....these are the Souls of the dead believers in Christ [they sleep in Christ in Heaven] waiting for the resurrection of the believers....

There are no Souls in Heaven except the Saints of Israel who were in the Grave when Jesus was Crucified and the thief on the cross with Jesus. We understand all about what happens at the Rapture !!

John saw the Souls of the early Christians Martyrs in Heaven...and it was said to them that they should REST (SLEEP)until their brethren that must be slain like them because of their testimony of Jesus will be fulfilled. Revelation 6:9-11