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You are not naive. What was the reason why I said there's no rapture?Hi precepts,
Here's your OP in full. Yes, I read it all before I replied earlier. You ask:
someone to please show me where a rapture is mentioned in Revelation since the only thing I see mentioned in Revelation are resurrections.
Don't know how you could have been any clearer as to what your question was. I answered it. However, then you went on with some understanding you have based on the Olivet discourse, which is not a part of the Revelation. You then explained that your understanding was that all the Revelation spoke about was resurrection. Personally, I'd say that was a fairly myopic view, but nevertheless, I pointed out to you where in the Revelation we find, what we call the 'rapture', occurs. I don't believe I misunderstood your question at all.
God bless you,
In Christ, Ted
You're another one that's not naive. What is the reason why I say there's no rapture?I don't know where you get the idea that we are not supposed to be called up, but without any indication, to just be taken up.
Here are the scriptures concerning rapture which involve being taken up. In some is the hearing of a voice like a trumpet. In some is the loud command given.
1 Thes.4:15-17 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
Rev. 4:1 Behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here".
Rev.11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in the cloud.
1 Thes. 4:16-17 And the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
How is (I ask rhetorically) hearing a loud voice from heaven (as spoken of in Rev.11:12), different from what is written in 1 Thes.4:16 which mentions a loud command, the voice of an archangel, with the trumpet of God; resulting in the dead being raised up.
What you miss, and perhaps yourself seek to put a square into a round hole, and chop off the bits, thus isolating and ignoring that the words from Rev.11:12 saying, "Come up here." which results in the Two Witnesses being raised up from the dead, then being taken up into heaven while all the people watch them go up.
The Two Witnesses could not resurrect and go up without a call from God. Even as the apostle John in Rev.4:1, could not of himself go up into heaven without there being "and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here".
Those are the exact same words which were spoken to the Two Witnesses, and you are making an isolated difference because it is not written that what they heard was not accompanied by "the sound of a trumpet" as what John said that he heard? Is that what you are attempting to establish? That idea is amusing as well as preposterous.
1 Thes.4:16 has nothing in it about the "Tares" so, yes, there is no mention of a White Throne Judgment in it., it is strictly addressing believers. And, there is no word in it to indicate *when* the rapture happens.
Yet you use that verse to state your belief that the rapture will happen at the end of this world (this age, and you mean, I think, the end of the Tribulation).
I can only extrapolate based on your overall statements.
On my previous post I have given Mat.24:3 as a reference to the "return" of Jesus, I now add verse 27.
I also previuosly commented on vss37-41 concerning (as you put it) the "Tares" which are taken away/die, and the "Wheat" which remains/lives. There is no mention throughout all of the chapter, of any resurrection, or rapture.
The event of resurrection has to be assumed from verse 27, in that (as written elsewhere) when Jesus Second Coming occurs, the Tribulation saints are resurrected.
The term "the witnesses taste after witnessing Christ return," is an apparent theological one from your particular brand of denomination, that I'm not familiar with. Therefore I wonder why you call it "a fact".
No.... you haven't explained.
Sorry, I don't speak your denominational theology.
The situation that Jesus returns to in the Second Coming is havoc on earth, and the epic Armageddon. Afterwards there is true and real peace, Jesus then establishes the Kingdom, sitting on a throne in the cleaned up Temple in Jerusalem.. or as the Jews say it, Yerushaliym.
Plus, Rev.3:12, The new Jerusalem come down from above is established. And, Rev.20:4-6, the Tribulation saints are resurrected to reign with him for a thousand years.
Good, I'm glad to report that there wasn't any further mickey mouse amusements in your post other than that one at the first.
And, concerning that portion, I would like to be able to say that - -
I'm sure you know better.
Aren't true Christian's God's own people? If not, who are we then?the Judgement begins with God's own people."
True .... with His national ethnic Israel because they rejected Him as Messiah and King
That is the "Wheat and Tares" rapture/resurrection harvest at the end of this world. What is the reason I gave in the opening post as to why there's no "rapture" in Revelation?1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain (a`rpaghsomeqa)(shall be caught) up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(KJV)
a`rpaghsomeqa = ind fut pass 1st per pl form of verb a`rpazw = take away, carry off; catch up (into heaven);
I Thess 4:17 deindo nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul
(rapio) = rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera, et sic semper cum Domino erimus.(Latin Vulgate)
The Latin term "rapio" from the Latin translation of the Greek original
is the source for the English term "Rapture."
And you asked:precepts said: ..........
"It must be the work of the Devil why some think only 144,000 Jews are saved (though Christ said there are no longer Jew or Gentile) and that the great multitude doesn't include NT converted Jews."
Why do you people play these silly games? What did I say about Preterism?I guess you did not understand my comment. Any form of Preterism is a false teaching.
Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.
Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us.
Why do you people play these silly games? What did I say about Preterism?
So why are you telling me this if I just told you you've never heard my Preterism and that it's not the Preterism that you know:You said in comment #127........
"hat is the Preterism that you know. My Preterism is sound."
Aren't true Christian's God's own people? If not, who are we then?
Jesus already judged the Jews. Matthew 21:43
So why hat you telling me this if I just told you you've never heard my Preterism:
"I guess you did not understand my comment. Any form of Preterism is a false teaching.
Teachings such as preterism are not just a matter of different interpretation. It's way more serious than that, and it is the "spirit" of the AntiChrist at work that tricks and fools people into believing such blasphemous things.
Not only is it dangerous because it's completely false, it's dangerous because it completely denies that Jesus is the Savior who died for us on the Cross for our wretched selves and sins, but it calls Jesus a liar because it voids, nullifies and robs the Church of the blessed Hope that He most assuredly promised to us."
You're another one that's not naive. What is the reason why I say there's no rapture?
All these long winded responses about nothingness is just beating around the bush..
Only a quack passes judgement before hearing the case, quack, quack.Birds of a feather flock together so if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually a Preterist.
You seem to be misunderstanding; I'm not rejecting the "rapture" because the word isn't in the scripture; I'm rejecting the "rapture" because the entire concept is missing from scripture. You don't even have to use the word "rapture": if you say to me, "Prior to the second coming, Christ will have a secret coming in which Christians will be removed from the earth and taken back to heaven in order to avoid certain things happening in the earth; they will then return with him to earth at a later time" I'm going to reply "None of that is taught anywhere in scripture"
The trinity is a concept that is actually taught in scripture. There are clear passages about "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"; so if someone says "Trinity" and I ask "What trinity?" they can cite specific passages which actually teach the concept of three. But when I say "What rapture?" there is not a single passage in all of scripture that says anything like "And I will come secretly, and gather in secret; and I will remove you out of the earth before I come a second/third time" there is not even a single verse which clearly teaches "I will remove you out of the earth"
The concept of the second coming is found in verses which have Jesus clearly saying "I will come again" thus since Jesus clearly said "I will come again" and since the apostles clearly teach "He will come again" "a second time"
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
then the "second coming" is a phrase that describes something that is actually conceptual taught: but no "rapturist" can ever point to a scripture which actually teaches the concept that Jesus will return before He returns in order to remove Christians from out of the world in order to cause them to avoid some tribulation event: in fact, the scripture clearly teaches the opposite concept: that Christians are "alive and remaining" until the coming of the Lord which destroys the lawless one. Scripture clearly teaches that Christians are "guarded" and "protected": which is why when I ask "Where is it taught that Jesus will return before he returns?" or "Where is it taught that Christians are removed from the world?" there is no answer showing a clear teaching of the concept.
Thus anyone "seeing" the teaching "into" the scripture is seeing something that isn't taught by the scripture at all. If a man point at a verse which says "I will protect you from the evil" and say "This is when Christ changes the children of the world into butterflies, and they flutter away to hide underground during the Day of the Lord" do you just believe it? Or do you look at the man and ask "What in the world are you talking about? There's no such a teaching as butterfly children hiding underground anywhere in the scripture"?
It's only a quack will speak about things they don't know about, quack, quack.
Talk is cheap, and the answer is your holy water.I can help you if length is your problem.
There is a Rapture and you are wrong.
That is the "Wheat and Tares" rapture/resurrection harvest at the end of this world. What is the reason I gave in the opening post as to why there's no "rapture" in Revelation?
Talk is cheap, and the answer is your holy water.
You've got it wrong, Nobody can force anybody to accept the truth. All they can do is present and let them act the fool in beating around the bush because it's like holy water to a vampire to them.Listen my friend, no one can make anyone believe what they do not want to believe.
You are dodging the fact, trying to avoid my opening post point.You have made your choice and I pray for God to bless you because He is the only one who can help you. You have been given more then enough Bible truth to show your error.
You are living in a dream world. You have yet to prove any tning.I am only debating with you so that the people reading this who do not post will see that the Bible is very clear and you are very wrong on the Rapture.
What separates the wise from the unwise, the godly from the ungodly, and lies from truth, is logic and reason, the basic tools of communication. You can only fool yourself. I know who you are.[/quote][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]I do not like to see false teaching go unchallenged just for that reason.
You are not arguing with sense, no disrespect intended. My two major points that you won't touch with a ten foot pole are there is no "throne" judgement in the wheat and tares resurrection, and Christ does not return until the 2nd resurrection because it is the 2nd death that is referenced in the Olivet discourse at his return. In order for there to be a rapture, Christ has to return, and he doesn't return until the 2nd death because the new Yah-ru-Shalem is the kingdom he inherits.Nope! You missed this one also my friend.
In spite of the clear explanation of the parable that Jesus gave (Matthew 13:36-43), this parable is very often misinterpreted and misunderstood and then some like yourself do it on purpose to support an in-Biblical agenda.
Many commentaries and websites have attempted to use this story as an illustration of the condition of the church, noting that there are both true believers (the wheat) and false professors (the weeds) in both the church at large and individual local churches. While this may be true, Jesus distinctly explains that the field is not the church; it is the world (v. 38).
Jesus Christ will one day establish true righteousness. After He raptures the true church out of this world, God will pour out His righteous wrath on the world. During that tribulation, He will draw others to saving faith in Jesus Christ. At the end of the tribulation, all unbelievers will be judged for their sin and unbelief; then, they will be removed from God’s presence. True followers of Christ will reign with Him. What a glorious hope for the “wheat”!
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