Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

miamited said:

Hi preceps,

I know that this is likely to be a big, big mistake on my part, but I've decided to at least write you an answer to your last post to me.

You started:


The 'proof'. As far as I'm concerned there isn't really any 'proof' in your opening post to support your position. You see, I don't agree with you and therefore, I logically wouldn't find your statements and ideas that you think of as 'proof' as actually being 'proof'. I'm not an idiot. If I thought that any of your statements provided any valid 'proof' of your understanding, well then, I'd agree with you wouldn't I? You see, I see your statements not as valid 'proof', but rather, for me, quite clear misunderstanding and misapplication of the Scriptures and what they say -- not 'proof' of anything that you say.

But, I'll humor you and we'll go through it. I expect that all I'll get from you in return is merely more of the same. Rather than expounding on and explaining the 'how' and 'why' you understand your 'proof' to intend the meaning that you infer from it, you'll likely continue this odd little game you play of just throwing out poisonous darts of anything I say as being like holy water to a vampire. Such an odd turn of phrase, but it seems to be all that you can do when questioned on your points to further explain exactly why you take particular pieces of Scripture to intend what you infer from them.

I rather imagine that in many of your discussions with people you've run across this attitude from others where they just turn away and mutter under their breath, "Sheesh, what an idiot." You likely then holler down the hallway as they walk away, "Yea, that's right! Like holy water to a vampire."

Anyway, let's get started. You opened with this question:


I offered an answer to your question by telling you that the word rapture isn't anywhere in all of the Scriptures, but the concept that there will be a removal of those who belong to Jesus as what we call 'the rapture' is explained in Revelation chapter 14. It tells us that there will first come one who is like the son of man and that he will first harvest the earth. It then tells us that there will come an angel after him who will harvest all those who remain on the earth after the first harvest by the son of man.

Do you deny that's what Revelation 14 says? If you do, I hope that your response to me is a little more focused on explaining to me why you don't believe that's what this piece of Scripture says, beyond just throwing out you general claim that it's like holy water to a vampire. Put some real meat and facts behind your answer, if you can. If not, then I'd respectfully request that again, you just keep your little jabs of hot air and meaninglessness to yourself.

You then wrote:


The Olivet discourse is another word that you will not find in all of the Scriptures, but it refers to Jesus' private discussion with his disciples concerning the last days. The 'Olivet discourse' does tell us about the 'rapture' in Matthew 24:29-31. Now, your statement here presupposes that the 2nd advent is the 2nd resurrection. It isn't. The 2nd resurrection, as they are numbered in the Scriptures comes after the 1,000 year reign of Jesus and the rest of the dead are resurrected to the final judgment. The first resurrection, as they are numbered in the Scriptures, is when the righteous are raised up for the 1,000 year reign of Jesus. It is discussed as a completely different time and place and event as the 'rapture' in the Revelation. You wrote in this group of statements the word 'if'. Do you understand that the word 'if' means to convey that such and such is true, but only 'if' such and such is also true. The rapture, or as you say, the 2nd advent of Jesus, is not explained in the Scriptures as being the same as the 2nd resurrection, but you insist that it is. Wrong! Nowhere in all of the Scriptures is the 2nd advent of Jesus mentioned along with, or happening at the same time, as the 2nd resurrection. They are two separate events foretold in the Scriptures that happen at two different times.

Now, you likely don't agree with that understanding and that's ok for me. But you have never once actually responded civilly to anyone who has tried to show that point, that other Scripture denies such an understanding. All you've done is make gibberish claims about the holy water and vampires and generally called everyone else stupid (although you didn't actually use the word stupid) that they don't see or understand the Olivet discourse as you understand it. Beyond the calling of names and inferring that everyone else is ignorant, you've offered nothing in the way of rebuttal. That's ok with me, but I hope that you can appreciate that for most of us, such a response shows more who the ignorant one is. Someone who can't even carry on a point by point explanation of their understanding and respond with evidence to rebut another understanding; someone who thinks that just by responding with claims of another's ignorance, for me, is someone who has found some been brainwashed by some explanation that they've copied from someone else in the past, but aren't really sure, or even able, to show any real evidence that they really have a clue of understanding as to why they believe as they believe. If that's you, that's ok, but hopefully you might understand that I see right through such a thing.

If I write a rebuttal with Scriptural evidence to support why your position or understanding may not be correct, then just crying out, "Can't you see my proof", or "Didn't you read my proof", or, "you're like holy water to a vampire". Isn't really offering any further rebuttal evidence as to exactly why they think as they do. Why they understand that their Scriptural reference actually says what they think it to say.

Then you wrote:


Yes, the Olivet discourse does discuss the gathering of the elect, but no, it is not what the Scriptures say is the first resurrection. Read the book! The first resurrection as spoken of in the very writing that you are questioning is when Jesus begins his 1,000 year reign. That 1,000 year reign seems to be clearly separated from the time spoken of, also in the Revelation, as when Jesus comes to harvest the earth. Now, the return of Christ to gather his does say that both those who are alive and those in their graves, who are his, will ascend with him into the clouds. But that will only be a spiritual resurrection. The bodily resurrection will not occur until the start of the 1,000 year reign. What Paul writes about the day when Christ will return in the clouds to gather his elect is never referred to, in the Scriptures, as 'the first resurrection'. We can pretty safely know that this will not be a bodily resurrection because they will be going to heaven. They will be a part of the saints under the alter who cry out for justice. The Scriptures do not call any event the 'first resurrection' until we get to the Revelation, chapter 20. Read it!

Now look, if all you're going to do is infer my ignorance and stupidity through a bunch of empty statements, void of any rebuttal evidence to correct my understanding or further explain yours, then let's just agree to disagree and you can go off and spit your poison at someone else. If all you're going to offer as your idea of rebuttal is to just proclaim my statments as being holy water to a vampire, then I'd appreciate your at least giving me that respect as a human being and take your empty understanding somewhere where people appreciate such things.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

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SpiritRehab said:

Revelation 12:5 - Understand that this is a prophecy of the future, not a recap of History.

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GBRK said:

The word Rapture is not found in the Scriptures, as a word, but the thought or teaching of the event surely is taught. First of all there are at least five Rapture timing positions that are prevalent today and they are:
1) No Rapture - no rescuing of God's Saints/Saved, no "catching up" of God's protected people, Saints/Christians
2) Pre-Tribulation timing - Saints, Christians, are taken
up, raptured, caught up into the clouds BEFORE the Seven Year Tribulation period begans. These pre-trib advocates believe that the Rapture is mentioned and symbolized in Revelation 4:1. They have no direct, literal, reference, in Revelation of the Rapture.
3) Mid-Tribulation timing - The Rapture happens in the exact middle of the Tribulation or 3 1/2 years in.
4) Post-Tribulation timing - Christ Raptures the Saints/Christians at the end of the Tribulation period (7-years)
5) Pre-Wrath timing - Christ Raptures the Saints/Christians immediately BEFORE God's Wrath falls upon mankind and occurs just over midway through the 7 years Tribulation period. This is the only timing position where specific, literal, teaching about the Rapture is cited in/from Scriptures.

Christ, Himself, taught about when this will occur: in

Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

​

From Christ Teachings Paul relayed to the Thessalonians and those in Corinth Christ instructions and teachings about the coming time when Christians/Saints would be taken up, raptured, caught up in the sky to meet Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

and

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV)
13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

and again Paul tells the Thessalonians, in reply to some who thought that the Rapture had already occurred and they were "left behind" Paul writes to tell them what must happen first, before the Rapture

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NIV)
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
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Christ taught the disciples to pass on to the Church and teach others in Matthew 24 and we find in 1 Corinthians and 1st & 2nd Thessalonians Paul teaches just that. Paul tells the Thessalonians in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 that this Rapture/catching-up will not occur until the Antichrist has come upon the scene. This directly refutes the Pre-Tribulation argument which has no direct Scriptural reference or evidence and no Pre-tribulation advocate can cite and point to a specific verse where Christ, Himself, taught about a Pre-tribulation timed rapture/catching-up yet today this is the most prevalent taught and accepted position even though there is NO Literal or Direct Scriptural instructions teaching such. The Pre-Wrath is the only acceptable and Scriptural position of the five.

How about Revelation? Where is the Rapture/catching-up taught in Revelation? It's not taught specifically and directly however it is there and evident it happened. John (writer of Revelation) sees the aftermath and evidence of the Rapture/Catching-up and writes about it in Revelation chapter 7.

Revelation 7:9-14 (NIV)
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?"
14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
​

Here in Chapter 7 of Revelation you have the Raptured/Caught-up Saints/Saved with Christ Jesus and specifically referred to as being out of the Tribulation which is exactly what Christ instructed and said in
Matthew 24:29-31 (NIV)
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Verse 29, Immediately after the distress of those days IS the Great Tribulation spoken about and described immediately before verse 29 back into Chapter 24. Most people only believe what they have been told, by a preacher or teacher about the Rapture and many of those make scripture meet their own agenda and give you scriptures that have to be taken figuratively and not literally. The PRE-WRATH Rapture timing position is the only one that uses literal scriptures and each scripture reinforces the one before and continues after. I believe that a Rapture or Catching-away is taught in Scriptures and by Christ and His Disciples to the Churches and everything flows together, logically and chronologically.

Compare 29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken to Revelation 6:12-13 (NIV)
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Note in Matthew 24:30 & 31 after verse 29 the Rapture happens and same in Revelation, After Revelation 6:12-13 the next thing you see is a great unnumbered, uncountable, number of people from all over earth, every nation, in Heaven with Christ. I believe that the Rapture/Catching-Away is taught and is a promise to all Saints/Christians that God will protect them and keep them from His (God's) Wrath that will fall upon the whole world in the end days/times.

Regarding the Pre-Tribulation timing advocates why is this dangerous for the Church to teach and believe verses the Pre-Wrath timing position? Because if Saints/Christians believe that they will be Raptured out before the Tribulation (extremely hard times that befall all the Earth) and before Antichrist comes on the scene then if they find themselves in the middle of the Tribulation, as they will be, and experiencing the things spoken of in Matthew 24 and in Revelation Chapter 6 then many will potentially lose faith. Many will feel they have been left behind by God and become angry and be disappointed and lose their faith. Christians should be looking for Christ to come again but they should also be looking for the SIGNS that will precede that coming so as to be aware that the time is upon them.

Matthew 24:32-33 (NIV)
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

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