Where does this stuff come from?

Ana the Ist

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Sure. It's better, but hardly perfect in many respects.

I'll come back to this next post.


If the system keeps consistently return white people to power, then it's not unreasonable to question why, and it's quite probable that some leftover bias remains. Could be structural, but due to a different aspect of the system as opposed to just actively saying to black people "you can't run for office", or it could be that it's due to leftover poverty derived from the actual legally ensconced discrimination that means black people are more concerned with day to day surviving than doing things like running for office.

Right....it could be any of those things. Let's consider another possibility...

People form societies for the explicit purpose of their own benefit. Given that...it would be strange to expect them to not be power, right? I would expect English people (ethnically) to hold positions of power in England. Even if they were open to ideas of multiculturalism....it would take a long long time for anyone else (ethnically) to attain the same saturation of positions of power.

After all, it's not like we question why Chinese people hold power in China or Russians hold power in Russia or Guatemalans hold power in Guatemala.

So in the US....which has been historically 80-90% white for all but the last 4 decades ....it's not that strange to see white people with wealth or authority or whatever is seen as power.

Furthermore, in describing the "system" we also have a word for accepting and working within the system to attain that power. That word is assimilation. If any group is kept from assimilating....we recognize how difficult it is for that group to attain power within the system. It's nearly impossible.

Yet for some reason, when people voluntarily decide to not assimilate (for any reason) people act as if that's not going to have a serious impact on their ability to gain power in the system. I find that odd.


Well, that would be nice, but the entire reason there are mass protests by and for black people in the US at the moment is that that 'punishment' tends to be way more severe - often fatally severe - for many cases involving black people.

What's "often"? I get that people are sometimes treated unfairly for racist reasons....but other people think it's often....others think it's most of the time....others think it's nearly all the time.

There doesn't seem like a reasonable way to tell who is actually correct....because we can't all be correct about this.


You need to distance yourself from this idea of 'A Racist Person'.

Isn't that what you mean though? When you think that a black person gets an unfair sentence because of racism....how do you think that happens if it isn't a racist judge, or prosecutor, or jury....or someone else? The law itself doesn't say "if you're black, you get a longer sentence". It says the exact opposite.


It individualises the problem when the problem is a collective one, and it becomes an exercise in proving whether a given person is A Racist Person, as opposed to just having said or done something racist that they should be held accountable for.

How do you know if someone acted out of racism? Isn't that what you mean when you say that they "did something racist"?

It sounds like you just want to assume they're racist.
 
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Speedwell

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Yeah, as I said, really not that interested in having this discussion. Too much education needed.
But the response was a good example of what I was talking about.
 
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Triumvirate

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But the response was a good example of what I was talking about.

Put it this way, I'll respond if I find stuff in a given post that I find interesting.

That post was not. Race issues PRATT central.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Sure. It's better, but hardly perfect in many respects.

It's better?

You're aware that people of color are fleeing from the nations where they are the racial majority....where people who look like them hold power....to these "white supremacist" nations by the millions...aren't you?

It's not happening the other way around. They aren't fleeing from the white supremacist nations to places where their race holds most or all of the power...

You're aware of this fact, right?
 
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Triumvirate

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I find this notion that racism couldn't ever be involuntary curious. Most wrongdoing can be involuntary. We can lie to ourselves about our own goodness. Why does racism only ever count if it comes from someone rocking up and going "Hello, I am A Racist. Watch me now as I do A Racism"
 
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Triumvirate

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It's better?

You're aware that people of color are fleeing from the nations where they are the racial majority....where people who look like them hold power....to these "white supremacist" nations by the millions...aren't you?

It's not happening the other way around. They aren't fleeing from the white supremacist nations to places where their race holds most or all of the power...

You're aware of this fact, right?

Please be more interesting. That other countries are crap to their own kind doesn't stop other countries from being white supremacist. This is tediously unoriginal, never mind a red herring.
 
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hedrick

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IF you go back and find reports like this one at the beginning of the outbreak, you'll find that the CDC and other doctors say things like the masks are not recommended at all for people who are not already sick. That was the common theme, then somewhere we went off the deep end into insanity.
Two things changed.

1) It was apparent from the beginning that they were trying to conserve masks for medical people
2) Originally it wasn't understood that most of the spread of Covid happens before symptoms. If you assume that people who are sick will stay home, the masks aren't as useful. But if most people don't know they're contagious, the tradeoff changes.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I find this notion that racism couldn't ever be involuntary curious. Most wrongdoing can be involuntary. We can lie to ourselves about our own goodness. Why does racism only ever count if it comes from someone rocking up and going "Hello, I am A Racist. Watch me now as I do A Racism"

How can anyone hold anyone accountable for involuntary behavior? It's involuntary.

If someone acted out of racism....there's something we can do about it. If someone does something involuntary...how do you know it was racism?
 
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Triumvirate

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How can anyone hold anyone accountable for involuntary behavior? It's involuntary.

If someone acted out of racism....there's something we can do about it. If someone does something involuntary...how do you know it was racism?

If they are treating someone differently according to a consistently observed trope that targets one race vs another. They may not realise it's an issue, but that doesn't stop the behaviour from being racist. But this is why it's important to distinguish the conceit of A Racist Person from racist behaviour and words.

Edit: Again, it's rather baffling that racism is magically protected...somehow...as a wrong that people cannot accidentally or inadvertently commit. It patently is. People might say a word or a phrase that they've heard where it wasn't presented to them as racist, but still might be racist. That isn't automatically wrongdoing, but it is still racism. The problem is when people choose to get defensive about being corrected on this by people who do know that it's racist.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Please be more interesting. That other countries are crap to their own kind doesn't stop other countries from being white supremacist. This is tediously unoriginal, never mind a red herring.

Several posters just told me I should ask people what they mean if I want to know what they mean....and all I've asked you is what you mean.

You seem to believe both that people benefit from people of their race holding power....yet somehow it's a mystery that nations with a majority white population have mostly white people in power.

At the same time....you seem to understand that many nations where people have majority racial demographics are far worse for their own people than "white supremacist nations".

Can you sort this out so that it makes even a little bit of logical sense? The only conclusion I can see is that having racial representation in power doesn't matter at all.
 
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Triumvirate

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Several posters just told me I should ask people what they mean if I want to know what they mean....and all I've asked you is what you mean.

And I've told you that I only have so much patience to be bothered to reply.

You seem to believe both that people benefit from people of their race holding power....yet somehow it's a mystery that nations with a majority white population have mostly white people in power.

I didn't say it was a mystery? Where did I say that? The whole point is it's not a mystery - it's white supremacism. The point about representation I made is that it's good for all demographics in a democracy to have sufficient representation that their issues are addressed.

At the same time....you seem to understand that many nations where people have majority racial demographics are far worse for their own people than "white supremacist nations".

No, I didn't say they were 'worse'. I said that one country hurting its own citizens is completely irrelevant to what the US does to its nonwhite inhabitants. It doesn't magically make the US 'better'. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

Can you sort this out so that it makes even a little bit of logical sense? The only conclusion I can see is that having racial representation in power doesn't matter at all.

You might be less confused if you read what I did write more carefully - those obvious mistakes are only killing my already low patience on discussing this topic with you.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Edit: Again, it's rather baffling that racism is magically protected...somehow...as a wrong that people cannot accidentally or inadvertently commit. It patently is. People might say a word or a phrase that they've heard where it wasn't presented to them as racist, but still might be racist. That isn't automatically wrongdoing, but it is still racism. The problem is when people choose to get defensive about being corrected on this by people who do know that it's racist.

I think it's baffling that people think that racism is magically occurring without intent.

My guess is that you don't think I can accidentally steal something....I'm aware something isn't mine when I take it. I guess I can be tricked into theft....but that's because of someone else's deception, not because I don't understand the concept of property.
 
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Triumvirate

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Can you give me an example?

Using a particular term that is considered a slur while not realising it's a slur. Sure, the intent isn't there, which is a plus. But intent isn't magic, and it doesn't stop the person from having said a racist slur. This does not mean the person is then immediately transmogrified into an irredeemable Racist Person.

However - if they react defensively to being corrected on this, and keep making the same 'mistake' over and over, well...people may wonder.
 
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Ana the Ist

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And I've told you that I only have so much patience to be bothered to reply.

It's a discussion forum....don't want to discuss? Leave.

The point about representation I made is that it's good for all demographics in a democracy to have sufficient representation that their issues are addressed.

They do have representation. It may not be a person of the same race....but it's representation regardless.

Are you saying that the race of people in power is important or not?
 
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Triumvirate

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I think it's baffling that people think that racism is magically occurring without intent.

My guess is that you don't think I can accidentally steal something....I'm aware something isn't mine when I take it. I guess I can be tricked into theft....but that's because of someone else's deception, not because I don't understand the concept of property.

But that doesn't change the fact that you stole something.

So you obviously get this.

So why is racism magically different? Explain it for us.
 
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Triumvirate

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It's a discussion forum....don't want to discuss? Leave.

I'll discuss points that are interesting. But given your posting history, you do not seem particularly openminded or original on this. So I will respond as I see fit. Do not tell me to leave again.

They do have representation. It may not be a person of the same race....but it's representation regardless.

Not quite the point that was being made.

Are you saying that the race of people in power is important or not?

It matters for minorities certainly, as it improves the chances of issues affecting that demographic from being represented.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Using a particular term that is considered a slur while not realising it's a slur.

No offense....but yesterday's polite conversation is today's slurs....and today's polite conversation is tomorrow's slurs....

If someone decides the term "whitey" or "colonizer" or "Karen" is a slur tomorrow ...that doesn't make us all racist today. Intent matters.
 
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Triumvirate

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No offense....but yesterday's polite conversation is today's slurs....and today's polite conversation is tomorrow's slurs....

If someone decides the term "whitey" or "colonizer" or "Karen" is a slur tomorrow ...that doesn't make us all racist today. Intent matters.

If enough people are using a term with malign intent, it doesn't matter if you're one of a handful using it with motives that are pure as the driven snow.

If I came up to you said 'I'm going to ******** kill you', you wouldn't worry about whether my intent might not be the same as the intent that phrase usually carries.
 
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