Where do you stand?

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
My point is that it is pointless for either of ut to just call the others view inaccurate.  Rather we should post nore ezplanations and scripture to support that opinion.

Having a typing issue?  

 

He doesn't say that either are right.  Rather he says that both are applicable.

So he's not saying either controversial view is right but they're both right enough to be applied? 

Yes.  I think that he has choosen his past struggle to describe the existing struggles of possably both the unsaved and the save who are having struggles with allowing their flesh to be crucified with Christ.

I asked this before but I must have missed your answer.  What non-Christian is it that you know that struggles because they desire to do what is right according to God but their flesh desires to sin?  As I said, if they desire to please God because they have faith in the redemptive work of Christ then they are a Christian, regardless if they call themselves that.  If they don't do something out of faith, it's sinful.  Unsaved people don't do ANYTHING based on their faith in God.  There is no struggle for the unsaved.  They just plain don't ever desire to do anything for a godly reason.  Where's the struggle?

PS  I haven't got my opinion from Matthew Henry, rather it is from Madamn Guyon and Watchman Nee.

Sorry, don't know who those people are either.

God bless

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Reformationist

I asked this before but I must have missed your answer.  What non-Christian is it that you know that struggles because they desire to do what is right according to God but their flesh desires to sin?  As I said, if they desire to please God because they have faith in the redemptive work of Christ then they are a Christian, regardless if they call themselves that.  If they don't do something out of faith, it's sinful.  Unsaved people don't do ANYTHING based on their faith in God.  There is no struggle for the unsaved.  They just plain don't ever desire to do anything for a godly reason.  Where's the struggle?

I'm not talking about the unsaved persueing God, rather they just trying to do what is right, or worse thrying to stop doing what is wrong.  God's opinion and desires are not even in the picture.  Its the angry father trying to stop abusing his family.  Or the drunk trying to sobber up.  The unsaved know what is good, they just cannot get there.

 

Sorry about the typing, trying to watch a movie.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
I'm not talking about the unsaved persueing God, rather they just trying to do what is right, or worse thrying to stop doing what is wrong.  God's opinion and desires are not even in the picture.  Its the angry father trying to stop abusing his family.  Or the drunk trying to sobber up.  The unsaved know what is good, they just cannot get there.

Here's the problem I have with what you're saying.  You say the unsaved person is "trying to do what is right," right?  "What is right" is defined as what God says "is right."  It's not just action.  It's motive.  I'm not saying that the unsaved don't have morals.  What I'm saying is that their morals are not based on God's definition of what is good.  If I was not a Christian and I was beating my child and I stopped, I can guarantee you it isn't because God says we shouldn't do that.  If I help an old lady across the street and I did it so that I could get something from her is my action godly?  Of course not.  Might it "look" godly to someone else?  Very possibly.  Does the fact that they think my action is good make it good?  NO!!!

That's what being a Christian means.  It means that we don't do things like the world.  Everything we do is supposed to be because it represents our faith.  The unsaved have no faith.  The unsaved have no clue what good is.  There is only one good so try not to differentiate.  "Good" is what God says is good.

Sorry about the typing, trying to watch a movie.

I hope you didn't take that seriously.  I was only pickin at you.

God bless

 

[ThatOneGuy]

In reading this discussion (b/w Ref and Snup), it seems (and has already been said) that there is a lack of clarity on some terms. I remember there being a kind of test question called "identify." Maybe it would help for y'all to identify the following terms? Here are my petty attempts at definitions...

1. Good - n. a) divine good, anything conforming to God's pleasure, b) human good, that which benefits one or one's allies.

2. Grace - unearned favor or benefit

3. Faith - belief of God's promises

4. Sin - any act not done with a faithful motive

It's been... challenging... trying to read this discussion. But, I know there is good that can come of it. May God be glorified as He is displayed in His righteousness and beauty.

/p

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by ThatOneGuy
In reading this discussion (b/w Ref and Snup), it seems (and has already been said) that there is a lack of clarity on some terms.

I agree this is very often the source of the problem.  My attempts to reconcile certain phrases and terms in a logical manner have been ignored in the past so "getting on the same page" is often a neverending quest.

I remember there being a kind of test question called "identify." Maybe it would help for y'all to identify the following terms?

This will be great if we can agree on the meanings that we are going to use.  I'll give it a shot.

1. Good - n. a) divine good, anything conforming to God's pleasure, b) human good, that which benefits one or one's allies.

1. Good - n. divine good, anything conforming to God's pleasure.  Anything that does not fit in this catagory is, plainly, not good.

2. Grace - unearned favor or benefit

2. Grace - God's help given because it pleased Him to do so, not based on any merit of the recipient. 

3. Faith - belief of God's promises

3. Faith - belief that the atoning work of Christ was sufficient and efficient in securing my salvation. 

4. Sin - any act not done with a faithful motive

4. Sin - any act not done with a faithful motive or anything that transgresses God's Law.  For instance, if I did something that transgressed God's Law it would be sinful even if I did it because I thought it was the faithful thing to do.

It's been... challenging... trying to read this discussion. But, I know there is good that can come of it. May God be glorified as He is displayed in His righteousness and beauty.

/p

Thanks bro.

God bless,

Don

 

[Kirisutokyoo-shinja]

I chose Arminian, but honestly other than the difinitions given I know nothing of it.  I do not however agree on the "predestination thing", or perhaps more decisively I am undecided.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by ThatOneGuy
1. Good -

  

Anything that is benificial, positive, helpful, coming from pure motives, and establishing glory for God. 

2. Grace

The covering of sin, mercy, compassion, choosing to love rather then dicipline.  A gift.

3. Faith

Relying upon the spoken word of God.  Looking to God for the answers.

4. Sin

anything done outside of God's influence, anything that includes relying upon the flesh in oposition to God's will.  Anything that pushes God away.  Anything that uplifts the flesh.

5.  Understanding of the scriptures

revelation,  God's interpetation,  an understanding spoken by the Spirit to the spirit.  The forth dimension of Scripture.  The written word of God reinforced by the spoken word of God to become the reveal word of God.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Here's the problem I have with what you're saying.  You say the unsaved person is "trying to do what is right," right?  "What is right" is defined as what God says "is right."  It's not just action.  It's motive.  I'm not saying that the unsaved don't have morals.  What I'm saying is that their morals are not based on God's definition of what is good.  If I was not a Christian and I was beating my child and I stopped, I can guarantee you it isn't because God says we shouldn't do that.  If I help an old lady across the street and I did it so that I could get something from her is my action godly?  Of course not.  Might it "look" godly to someone else?  Very possibly.  Does the fact that they think my action is good make it good?  NO!!!

That's what being a Christian means.  It means that we don't do things like the world.  Everything we do is supposed to be because it represents our faith.  The unsaved have no faith.  The unsaved have no clue what good is.  There is only one good so try not to differentiate.  "Good" is what God says is good.



I hope you didn't take that seriously.  I was only pickin at you.

God bless

Before you get mad at what I'm about to say, please read all that I have to say.

I do not believe that the whole of man is corrupted.  I believe that parts of a man soul are not defiled by the fall.  But the whole of mans flesh is defiled and vile in God's sight.  In such case a man can start with good motives, but those motives always become corrupted because the nature of sin must defile what is good.  Therefore every action does not carry the purity from which they started, rather they carry the defilement of the flesh that the motives must pass through in order to become action.  That though a motive may start as good it become corrupted immidiately before it even leaves the heart.  That though a man may have many good motives they never will manifest as purly as they start.  Therefore nothing good can come from a man.  And his heart is the most evil of all, because just as Satan triest to perverts everything that is of God, so also the sin nature of man perverts everything that is good within a man.

Haggai 2:

11“This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Ask the priests what the law says: 12If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?’”
The priests answered, “No.”
13Then Haggai said, “If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?”
“Yes,” the priests replied, “it becomes defiled.”
14Then Haggai said, “‘So it is with this people and this nation in my sight,’ declares the LORD. ‘Whatever they do and whatever they offer there is defiled.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Before you get mad at what I'm about to say, please read all that I have to say.

I do not believe that the whole of man is corrupted.  I believe that parts of a man soul are not defiled by the fall.  But the whole of mans flesh is defiled and vile in God's sight.  In such case a man can start with good motives, but those motives always become corrupted because the nature of sin must defile what is good.  Therefore every action does not carry the purity from which they started, rather they carry the defilement of the flesh that the motives must pass through in order to become action.  That though a motive may start as good it become corrupted immidiately before it even leaves the heart.  That though a man may have many good motives they never will manifest as purly as they start.  Therefore nothing good can come from a man.  And his heart is the most evil of all, because just as Satan triest to perverts everything that is of God, so also the sin nature of man perverts everything that is good within a man.

Haggai 2: 

11“This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Ask the priests what the law says: 12If a person carries consecrated meat in the fold of his garment, and that fold touches some bread or stew, some wine, oil or other food, does it become consecrated?’”
The priests answered, “No.”
13Then Haggai said, “If a person defiled by contact with a dead body touches one of these things, does it become defiled?”
“Yes,” the priests replied, “it becomes defiled.”
14Then Haggai said, “‘So it is with this people and this nation in my sight,’ declares the LORD. ‘Whatever they do and whatever they offer there is defiled.

Not sure why I'd get mad at that but it seems we've found at least one major source of our disagreement.  I believe that until one recognizes the helplessness of fallen man's predicament one cannot fully grasp, and subsequently appreciate to the proper extent, the work that God did.  When the term "total depravity" is used, at least in the reformed community, we understand that to mean, not that man is utterly depraved, i.e., he's as bad as he can get, rather that sin has pervaded unto every part of his being, i.e., his thoughts, actions, motives, desires, etc.  Fallen man is dead in his trespasses (Eph 2:1).  Obviously this is a reference to the spiritual state of fallen man, not the physical state.  One of the reasons that we can see the effects of a physical death is to draw the obvious parallel to our spiritual death prior to regeneration.  Physical man does not speak, walk, respond, call out, desire, have faith, love, etc.  Likewise, spiritually dead man does not respond to things of which they are spiritually dead.  That's why regeneration, God's sovereign action of bringing one back to life, is so important.  If God does not do this then the Gospel falls on deaf ears, no matter how persuasive the person delivering it.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If we understand that prior to being born again we cannot even see the kingdom of God then the concept that, not only do we see the kingdom of God prior to being born again, we also desire it becomes obviously unbiblical.  We are not born again by the power of our will.  We are born from above.  That is God's sovereign act that He brings about upon His elect.  Being truly born again does not result in a lack of change.  Obviously Christians struggle with putting off their old sinful nature their entire lives.  However, it is our motives that are drastically changed.  Our behavior is something that is changed throughout our sanctification.

God bless

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Not sure why I'd get mad at that but it seems we've found at least one major source of our disagreement.  I believe that until one recognizes the helplessness of fallen man's predicament one cannot fully grasp, and subsequently appreciate to the proper extent, the work that God did.  When the term "total depravity" is used, at least in the reformed community, we understand that to mean, not that man is utterly depraved, i.e., he's as bad as he can get, rather that sin has pervaded unto every part of his being, i.e., his thoughts, actions, motives, desires, etc.  Fallen man is dead in his trespasses (Eph 2:1).  Obviously this is a reference to the spiritual state of fallen man, not the physical state.  One of the reasons that we can see the effects of a physical death is to draw the obvious parallel to our spiritual death prior to regeneration.  Physical man does not speak, walk, respond, call out, desire, have faith, love, etc.  Likewise, spiritually dead man does not respond to things of which they are spiritually dead.  That's why regeneration, God's sovereign action of bringing one back to life, is so important.  If God does not do this then the Gospel falls on deaf ears, no matter how persuasive the person delivering it.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If we understand that prior to being born again we cannot even see the kingdom of God then the concept that, not only do we see the kingdom of God prior to being born again, we also desire it becomes obviously unbiblical.  We are not born again by the power of our will.  We are born from above.  That is God's sovereign act that He brings about upon His elect.  Being truly born again does not result in a lack of change.  Obviously Christians struggle with putting off their old sinful nature their entire lives.  However, it is our motives that are drastically changed.  Our behavior is something that is changed throughout our sanctification.

God bless

And here also is another point of contention.  I believe that after salvation is recieved, a man is completely changed in the spirit realm.  That starting at that point he sits in the heavenlies.  In addition to having his statue and spiritual make up totally reversed, he also recieves the anointing to have the rest of his make up changed also.  At this point he has the same potential to live sinless as Christ did, but because of stonghold within his life he is unable to uptain that state.  These strongholds keep him bound to the old man, mostly by memory and habit.  When a person recieves the baptism of the Holy Spirit (I realize that you may not believe in a seperate baptism or infilling, accompanied by the gift of a personal prayer language in tongues.) he recieves the power to overcome the strongholds that have bound him.  At that point he has everything that he needs to never sin again, but he must be willing to trust God and allow Him to accomplish this.  In addition to myself, I know many people who testify of the power of God totally freeing them from the bondage that has kept them in sin.  Many of them has experience so much freedom from sin that most people would call it an act.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
And here also is another point of contention.  I believe that after salvation is recieved, a man is completely changed in the spirit realm.  That starting at that point he sits in the heavenlies.

I don't disagree with that.  I do believe man is a new creation upon being saved.  However, I don't necessarily think that the manifestation of that change will be complete until our glorification.

In addition to having his statue and spiritual make up totally reversed, he also recieves the anointing to have the rest of his make up changed also.

What statue?

At this point he has the same potential to live sinless as Christ did, but because of stonghold within his life he is unable to uptain that state.

If his old nature still has a stronghold in his life how can you say that he has the same potential for sinlessness that Christ was, who does not have an old, fallen nature to overcome?

In addition to myself, I know many people who testify of the power of God totally freeing them from the bondage that has kept them in sin.

Do you mean being totally free of sin, or just totally free of particular sins?

Many of them has experience so much freedom from sin that most people would call it an act.

Well, that sounds great.  I just hope those people aren't under the delusion that they don't sin.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God bless

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I don't disagree with that.  I do believe man is a new creation upon being saved.  However, I don't necessarily think that the manifestation of that change will be complete until our glorification.

But I'm saying that the change is complete, but will not manifest untill the man comes into agreement with Christ.

What statue?

The status of having life

If his old nature still has a stronghold in his life how can you say that he has the same potential for sinlessness that Christ was, who does not have an old, fallen nature to overcome?

I think that you don't quite understand what I'm getting at.  Strongholds are just lies that you believe.  When you see the truth the lie has no hold on you.  A saved man no longer possess a fallen nature, rather now he has memories and beliefs that linger from where the nature once existed.  When these are dealt with, they too will nolonger have influence over him.  Man used to be controlled by a fallen nature, now he is only influence by beliefs that linger from that nature.  This man has nothing to overcome, rather he just has to listen to Christ, who is truth.  And by listening to the truth, he can nolonger be controlled by anything.

Do you mean being totally free of sin, or just totally free of particular sins?

I mean absolutly and totally free from all sin.  Every born again Christian has that potential, and every Spirit filled Christian has the power living within them.  The only thing that they need inorder to see it fulfill within them is the truth and leading of Christ.  From this I believe that you can see how much power  I believe that Christ has in the life of a Believer.

Well, that sounds great.  I just hope those people aren't under the delusion that they don't sin.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God bless

  Rather they experience extended periods of sinlessness.  And the closer that they get to God in their relationships, the greater these periods are.  They don't believe that they have no sin, rather they believe that they can get to a place where sin does not reoccure and has no more power over them.

 

[Andrew]

None of the above.

I prefer to follow the Holy Spirit then Bible scholars and their theologies.

1 Cor 1:
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul [Calvin]; and I of Apollos [Armin]; and I of Cephas [Calvin-Armin]; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

great post on the potential to walk sinless like Christ Snup!

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Reformationist, this quote is for non-believers if you read the context.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
But I'm saying that the change is complete, but will not manifest untill the man comes into agreement with Christ.

So God's ability to manifest a change that He brought about is limited to the created being agreeing?  Okay. 

I think that you don't quite understand what I'm getting at.  Strongholds are just lies that you believe.  When you see the truth the lie has no hold on you.

I agree.

A saved man no longer possess a fallen nature, rather now he has memories and beliefs that linger from where the nature once existed.

I don't believe that.  If all we had were memories then the pull to sin wouldn't be as strong as it is.  We do still have a fallen nature.  We just also have a new redeemed nature that has been transformed and struggles against our old man.

When these are dealt with, they too will nolonger have influence over him.

And how are they properly "dealt with?"

Man used to be controlled by a fallen nature, now he is only influence by beliefs that linger from that nature.  This man has nothing to overcome, rather he just has to listen to Christ, who is truth.  And by listening to the truth, he can nolonger be controlled by anything.

Actually we are never truly free.   We are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ.  This is in reference to our will, not our actions.  If we know the law is good and strive to keep it out of obedience then we are a slave to Christ. 

I mean absolutly and totally free from all sin.  Every born again Christian has that potential, and every Spirit filled Christian has the power living within them.  The only thing that they need inorder to see it fulfill within them is the truth and leading of Christ.  From this I believe that you can see how much power  I believe that Christ has in the life of a Believer.

Okay, so all born again Christians have the potential to be sinless, even though the Bible says otherwise, coupled with the fact that no one ever, with the exception of Jesus, lived a perfectly righteous life.  As long as we are in these broken vessels we will sin. 

Rather they experience extended periods of sinlessness.  And the closer that they get to God in their relationships, the greater these periods are.  They don't believe that they have no sin, rather they believe that they can get to a place where sin does not reoccure and has no more power over them.

I agree with this.  It's called spiritual maturity.  I just think if someone believes they will never sin while in this vessel then they are deluding themselves.  I don't believe it to be a limitation of God's work or power.  I just don't believe that it was His plan for us to be completely conformed in this vessel.  If it was He would have just inculcated with the righteousness of Christ, rather than just giving us a new nature to obey and the credit for His righteousness and leaving our old nature in us, with the new nature.  He did this to build our spiritual growth by resistance.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Andrew
Reformationist, this quote is for non-believers if you read the context.

What???!!!

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.  If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.  But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

It' is not for unbelievers.  There is nothing in the context there that I see that dictates the spiritual disposition of the audience.  My guess would be it was written to believers and non-believers alike.  Or do you know unbelievers that "say they have fellowship with Him," "walk in the light as He is in the light," or "confess their sins?"

Have you ever even known of anyone, aside from Christ, who has led a sinless life?  Anyone?

God bless

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Reformationist
So God's ability to manifest a change that He brought about is limited to the created being agreeing?  Okay.

 

well, you are saying that it is limited, in that it cannot change the flesh.  I saying that God power to change the man is not stoped at the flesh, rather it overtakes it.  You say His ability stops at the flesh, but I say that He choses to stop His ability at mans agreement.

I don't believe that.  If all we had were memories then the pull to sin wouldn't be as strong as it is.  We do still have a fallen nature.  We just also have a new redeemed nature that has been transformed and struggles against our old man.

The only thing that we have that is fallen is our ungodly beliefs.  You forgot that I also said that we had beliefs.  What we believe determines who we are.  If we believe that we are stuck with sin then we are.  If a woman believes that all men will hurt her the she will be stuck with trying to stop men from hurting her.  We are locked away by our own beliefs.  And God wants us to believe Him, so that nothing can lock us away anymore.  If we still have a fallen nature that we wressle with, then the power of Christ ressurection has no influence in our lives.  We are either resurected with Christ or we are not.  If I am resurected with Christ then sin has no power over me, because I am dead to it, just as Paul said.

And how are they properly "dealt with?"

They are properly dealt with by Christ speaking truth into them.  He is the Way, we must look to Him and Him alone.  He is the Truth, it is His Truth and His Truth alone that can free us from what binds us.  He is the Life, His Life is manifested in us when we look to Him and listen to His Truth.  If we were to still have the fallen nature, then there would still be death resident in us.  For the old nature is emnity to God.  Life and death cannot occupy the same space.  What is holy and unholy cannot occupy the same space.  This is called a double minded man.  The unholyness will defile the man and the death will take over and the man will be violently rejected by God.

Actually we are never truly free.   We are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ.  This is in reference to our will, not our actions.  If we know the law is good and strive to keep it out of obedience then we are a slave to Christ. 

If you strive to keep the law the you are trying to fulfill something that is already fulfilled by Christ.  You are rejecting the work of Christ in favor of your own work.  And as Paul said, anyone who tries to keep the law is bound to all of it, and that man will never find righteousness, rather he will only find death.

Okay, so all born again Christians have the potential to be sinless, even though the Bible says otherwise, coupled with the fact that no one ever, with the exception of Jesus, lived a perfectly righteous life.  As long as we are in these broken vessels we will sin.

 

the Bible does not say otherwise.  As John says, "no one who continues to sin, knows Christ."  The Bible agrees.  You may say what about 1 John 1:8.  "If we say that we have not sinned", notice the past tence.  I will never say that I have not sinned in the past, that I am not guilt of that sin.  I will never say that sin has not been apart of my life.  But I can say that if I trust in Christ, that I will never ever sin again.  That doesnot mean that sin has never been on my plate, active and distructive in my life, what it does mean is that Christ has completely conquered sin and it has no place in my life, and if sin is found in my life again, then I have stopped trusting Christ somewhere in my life.  If I will trust Him completely in every area of my life, if I will give Him complete control, then I will never know sin again.  And nothing will ever be able to touch me again.

I agree with this.  It's called spiritual maturity.  I just think if someone believes they will never sin while in this vessel then they are deluding themselves.  I don't believe it to be a limitation of God's work or power.  I just don't believe that it was His plan for us to be completely conformed in this vessel.  If it was He would have just inculcated with the righteousness of Christ, rather than just giving us a new nature to obey and the credit for His righteousness and leaving our old nature in us, with the new nature.  He did this to build our spiritual growth by resistance.

The times that I have lived sinless before God, were not because I was wise or strong or tough or strongwilled.  It only happened because I took my focas off of myself and started relying totally upon God.  I started to seek Him for everything, He became my all in all.  Because I was remaining in Him, sin could not touch me.  Man does not have power over sin, even if he is saved.  It is Christ and Christ alone who has power over sin, and it is by His power that I can stop sinning completely.  All I have to do is trust Him, remain in Him.

 

[Andrew]

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So how many times do we need to be all-cleansed of all unrighteousness? Is "all" "all" or "some"? The Christian is cleansed of all unrighteousness only once by the blood thru the gift of righteousness. It need happen only once (one sacrifice) when the person is born again. Otherwise all is not "all".

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So which Christian says that he was ever without sin? The fact that he is a Christian means that he once acknowledged that he has sins and received Jesus as Saviour thru the preceding verse.

So, no 1 Jn 1:9 is not for the believer. It is not something we use everytime we sin to be all-cleansed over and over again.

 

[two feathers]

none of the above.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by SnuP
well, you are saying that it is limited, in that it cannot change the flesh.

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, any such thing.

I saying that God power to change the man is not stoped at the flesh, rather it overtakes it.

Which I agree with.  However, it is not an immediate or complete process until our glorification.  Until we are no longer in this flesh we are subject to it's weaknesses.  By the grace of God we mature and overcome.  That process, however, is not complete until we are glorified.

I say that He choses to stop His ability at mans agreement.

For what purpose?  Why would He limit the effectiveness of His grace to the condition of agreement by a fallen creation? 

If we still have a fallen nature that we wressle with, then the power of Christ ressurection has no influence in our lives.

On the contrary, the reason we wrestle is because we don't have only a fallen nature.  It is our new redeemed nature that wrestles with our old nature, which, yes, includes our old beliefs.

We are either resurected with Christ or we are not.  If I am resurected with Christ then sin has no power over me, because I am dead to it, just as Paul said.

I never said that sin had power over a regenerate person.  What I said was that we still maintain a fallen nature.  If sin has no influence over you, a strong influence, then why do you still sin?  It does still influence your flesh.  Recognizing that the Law is good yet being unable to do good is a definitive sign of just what I'm saying, just as Paul said. 

They are properly dealt with by Christ speaking truth into them.

Uh...okay.  Sure.

He is the Life, His Life is manifested in us when we look to Him and listen to His Truth.

You've got it backwards, again.  We "look to Him and listen to His Truth" BECAUSE His Life is manifested in us, not so that it can be.

If we were to still have the fallen nature, then there would still be death resident in us.  For the old nature is emnity to God.  Life and death cannot occupy the same space.  What is holy and unholy cannot occupy the same space.  This is called a double minded man.  The unholyness will defile the man and the death will take over and the man will be violently rejected by God.

All this sounds great, except for the fact that we are talking about the sovereign power of God, not the impotence of man. 

If you strive to keep the law the you are trying to fulfill something that is already fulfilled by Christ.  You are rejecting the work of Christ in favor of your own work.  And as Paul said, anyone who tries to keep the law is bound to all of it, and that man will never find righteousness, rather he will only find death.

I agree completely.  However, that's not what I was talking about.  I was talking about our motive.  If we strive to be obedient to God's Law because we recognize that He has kept the Law and regenerated us and we do so out of a love that He manifests in us then there is nothing binding in that motive.  If, however, we strive to keep the Law because we assume, as do so many on this board, that we complete or perfect the work of Christ then we are subject to that statement of Paul's.  Striving ot keep the Law for a righteous reason is righteous.  There's nothing wrong with trying to keep the Law.  We're supposed to keep the Law.  We are just not to do it because we think it is needed for our salvation. 

the Bible does not say otherwise.

Okay bro.  Getting a bit too cylical for me.  Yes it does, no it doesn't, know what I mean?

As John says, "no one who continues to sin, knows Christ."

Context.  Neat word, huh?  That is talking about a lifestyle of sin, not sinning.  Do you continue to sin?  Do you know Christ?  Yeah.  That's what I thought.

But I can say that if I trust in Christ, that I will never ever sin again.

Okay.  I guess you missed it before.  Do you know anyone that doesn't sin?  I'm not asking if you know a mature Christian who has learned to trust God and sins much less often than when they were a new Christian.  I'm asking if you know anyone that doesn't ever sin anymore.  I'm talking about people who are still alive, just for clarification.  And if, by chance, you do, how is it that you know they don't sin?  Do you know their minds?  Is it because they said they don't sin anymore?  How do you know?

That doesnot mean that sin has never been on my plate, active and distructive in my life, what it does mean is that Christ has completely conquered sin and it has no place in my life, and if sin is found in my life again, then I have stopped trusting Christ somewhere in my life.

Really?  So if you see sin in your life you're obligated to stop trusting Christ?  I see.  Very strange.

If I will trust Him completely in every area of my life, if I will give Him complete control, then I will never know sin again.

No offense bro, but He has complete control whether you "give it to Him" or not.  He's God.

The times that I have lived sinless before God, were not because I was wise or strong or tough or strongwilled.  It only happened because I took my focas off of myself and started relying totally upon God.  I started to seek Him for everything, He became my all in all.  Because I was remaining in Him, sin could not touch me.

Let me get this straight.  You lived sinless at some point for what, a day, two maybe, and it wasn't because you were wise but it was because of a wise decision on your part to focus on God and seek Him for everything?  Okay.  That makes no sense but, okay.

 Man does not have power over sin, even if he is saved.  It is Christ and Christ alone who has power over sin, and it is by His power that I can stop sinning completely.  All I have to do is trust Him, remain in Him.

Have you stopped sinning completely?  Know anyone who has?  If so, I ask again, "how do you know that they have?"  You don't know their thoughts but you feel that you can say they don't sin.

God bless

 

[SnuP]

I went three months without comitting a single sin, not because I was trying to do anything, or make any discisions, but because God drew me unto Himself, and I followed.  He wooed me, and I trusted Him.