Where do you stand?

[cenimo]

Reformationist

If God has regenerated the person than my words won't fall on deaf ears. If God has not regenerated someone, then, well, it doesn't matter how good I am at explaining the Word. It will fall on deaf ears.

(ok- consider this scenario)
"Well, gee , this guy was "evangelizing me", but I guess I'm just not one of the ones the Lord sees fit to "regenerate", so I went out and robbed a bank..... I only hope to get 12 predestination types on my jury..."

(I know, we're still held accountable, but the above example is an all too common reaction to the concept of predestination - humans being humans, give them even the most minute hint that they may not make it anyhow and they will then say, "If that's the case, I'm gonna party")

 

 

[FluviusNeckar]

One says, "I am of Calvin," another, "I am of Arminius," another, "I am of Cephas," another, "I am of Apollo." Did Calvin die for you? Were you baptized into the name of Arminius? I side with Lambslove on this one---dump these post-medieval paradigms and thier renaissance nonsense.  Let's tie Christianity in our century back to the religion of Jesus.  That goal, afterall was what these reformers were trying to do in their centuries.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by cenimo
(ok- consider this scenario)
"Well, gee , this guy was "evangelizing me", but I guess I'm just not one of the ones the Lord sees fit to "regenerate", so I went out and robbed a bank..... I only hope to get 12 predestination types on my jury..."

(I know, we're still held accountable, but the above example is an all too common reaction to the concept of predestination - humans being humans, give them even the most minute hint that they may not make it anyhow and they will then say, "If that's the case, I'm gonna party")

Predestination is not a license to sin.  Just because someone sees it as such does not make it so.  My guess would be that the person who sees it as such, first, doesn't understand the doctrine, secondly, probably isn't regenerate.  I know that God has predestined some for glory and some for dishonor.  I believe that I have been saved because I am regularly convicted by the Holy Spirit and I see a desire to please God in me that was never there before.  Regardless of that desire I still occasionally respond to life in ungodliness.  When I do sin I never feel like, "Well, I'm saved anyway, it doesn't really matter."  I understand that I'm being disobedient to what I acknowledge is right.  I have seen a change in my desires over the last couple of years that is proof that God is sanctifying me.  I still desire to sin at times but I am often obedient.  I know that it is only by God's grace that I am ever obedient.  What the doctrine of predestination instills in me is never a belief that I've got a license to sin, rather it makes me all that much more grateful for the grace of the Lord that He does not impute the penalty for that sin upon me, at least not eternal punishment.  Obviously even saved people experience temporal punishment as a result of their sinfulness.  I do understand that the Lord has died and given to me the righteousness for the life and death of Christ.  I am eternally greatful.  I hope that God never lets me feel ambivilant or complacent in my faith.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
One says, "I am of Calvin," another, "I am of Arminius," another, "I am of Cephas," another, "I am of Apollo." Did Calvin die for you? Were you baptized into the name of Arminius? I side with Lambslove on this one---dump these post-medieval paradigms and thier renaissance nonsense.  Let's tie Christianity in our century back to the religion of Jesus.  That goal, afterall was what these reformers were trying to do in their centuries.

Which is the exact reason that I don't claim the title of Calvinist.  I am labeled that way due to my stance on the Word but I never say I am a Calvinist.  I am a Christian.

God bless

 

[cenimo]

Refomationist

As a result of discussions with the preacher friend I've mentioned, I've read Sproul, Sproul Jr (and he came right here to the pastor's church for a conference on the education system), Paradise Restored, D James Kennedy (excellent) and others - but I still have to go with free will.

May I suggest these two books to you - Chosen But Free, A View of Divine Election by Norman Geisler, and What Love Is This - Calvinism's Misrepresentatrion of God, by Dave Hunt -
I know, you're not a Calvinist, but considering the OP and the discussion so far, all the questions here are covered in those two books.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by cenimo
Refomationist

As a result of discussions with the preacher friend I've mentioned, I've read Sproul, Sproul Jr (and he came right here to the pastor's church for a conference on the education system), Paradise Restored, D James Kennedy (excellent) and others - but I still have to go with free will.

May I suggest these two books to you - Chosen But Free, A View of Divine Election by Norman Geisler, and What Love Is This - Calvinism's Misrepresentatrion of God, by Dave Hunt -
I know, you're not a Calvinist, but considering the OP and the discussion so far, all the questions here are covered in those two books.

I appreciate the recommendations.  I am reading a book called "Paradise Restored" right now but it is by David Chilton.  It is a commentary mostly about eschatological issues relating to the book of Revelations.

God bless and Merry Christmas,

Don

 

[cenimo]

Reformationist

my boo-boo, yup, that's it, by Chilton...also there is a book called Through New Eyes about understanding all the symbolic language in the Bible (can't recall the author offhand)

God Bless
and Merry Christmas to you

 

[Anthony]

The search for answers to man-made questions has superceded the search for Christ, and how to be more like him.

 

[hugoguttman]

Calvinist...Luteran...Armanian... What are those words?

I´m a Christian and preffer to read the Bible instead of philosophical currents.

so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

Corinthians 2:5

Pax.

Hugo.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Anthony
The search for answers to man-made questions has superceded the search for Christ, and how to be more like him.

in some ways I agree with you but to take what you said too far is just as wrong as focusing too much on the answers to these tough questions.  To be like him we have study the scriptures and try to understand God more and more.  That is part of a relationship with God and part of what it means to love God with our full being.  We must love God with all our minds and all hearts not one or the other. 

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
in some ways I agree with you but to take what you said too far is just as wrong as focusing too much on the answers to these tough questions.  To be like him we have study the scriptures and try to understand God more and more.  That is part of a relationship with God and part of what it means to love God with our full being.  We must love God with all our minds and all hearts not one or the other. 

I agree, but then what one should do is ask "How will having the answer to this question effect by faith, or make me a better Christian".

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Anthony
I agree, but then what one should do is ask "How will having the answer to this question effect by faith, or make me a better Christian".

Well I think it does because you are focusing in on God and how He works. You are getting to know God more and more.  To know His workings is to know more about Him.  However I know that you are right when you stress that this should not be a topic that should divide us.  WE should be able to discuss this intelligently and respectfully as Christian brothers and sisters and thus learn from eachother as God has intended for us to do.  Through this kind of attitude and practice we can make these types of discussions very important and very helpful in our pursuit to love God more by deepening our knowledge of Him.  Too often we donot have this attitude or the practice is not in line with our good attitudes so this does not occur but when it does there is major spiritual growth that occurs.  I think God intended us to discuss these types of questions with eachother as a part of deepening our relationships with each other and Himself. 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Is this the "wooing" of God that many Christians adhere to?  Did God "woo" Abraham?  How about Moses?  Name one person in the Bible that God "courted."  Please. 

 

Reformationist,

I can't think of any one person in particular where the scripture spells it out for us, however, I believe it is demonstrated for us pretty clearly in the Song of Solomon.

While some believe that book to be purely human sexuality on display, I see it as God wooing His bride and calling her to come away with Him.

So again, while it is not spelled out for us with each individual person who we see had a change take place in their heart, their heart was changed none the less.  A love relationship, at least for me has grown out of the heart changes that God has made in me.

I hear His wooing, you may call it regeneration but to me it is still wooing.  He's calling each of us to come away.   Most of us hear it but choose to ignore the call, much the same as the Shulimite woman in SOS.  Of course she eventually heeded and went with Him and expereinced His love and affection as a result.

Blessing to you,

Quaffer

 

[dignitized]

The Bridegroom woo's the bride. he does not CLUB her over the head and drag her off to his cave. lol

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Br Max,

Are you responding to my post? ? ?

Sorry, I guess I don't understand the point you are making. 

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
The Bridegroom woo's the bride. he does not CLUB her over the head and drag her off to his cave. lol

True as that may be that is not in any way a representation of God's regenerative Spirit.  First off, the bride does not normally hate the groom.  Secondly, God only forces those He saves in the sense that He gives them a desire that they did not have before.  That desire is to love and obey Him.  Prior to God changing our heart we never desire to be His child.  Think back to the first time you ever truly felt that you loved God and were greatful for what He did for you.  Most people look at that point in their lives, which is shortly followed by baptism or a prayer asking God to "come into my heart" and think of that action as the means by which their salvation takes place.  One word.  Bunk.  The truth of the matter is that if you truly desire a relationship with God because you love Him is because He has already regenerated you.  Now, we can't judge someone's motives.  Oftentimes we don't even understand our own motives.  God does.  Unregenerate man will never willingly come to Christ.  God must first bring that person to life.  Their response, i.e., baptism, sinner's prayer, obedience, etc, is a result of the change that God has sovereignly wrought in them, not a means to obtain that change.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Reformationist,

I can't think of any one person in particular where the scripture spells it out for us, however, I believe it is demonstrated for us pretty clearly in the Song of Solomon.

While some believe that book to be purely human sexuality on display, I see it as God wooing His bride and calling her to come away with Him.

So again, while it is not spelled out for us with each individual person who we see had a change take place in their heart, their heart was changed none the less.  A love relationship, at least for me has grown out of the heart changes that God has made in me.

I hear His wooing, you may call it regeneration but to me it is still wooing.  He's calling each of us to come away.   Most of us hear it but choose to ignore the call, much the same as the Shulimite woman in SOS.  Of course she eventually heeded and went with Him and expereinced His love and affection as a result.

Blessing to you,

Quaffer

The Song of Solomon is poetry.  It should be read as such.  Granted, it is divinely inspired poetry but it does not carry the same literary message as non-poetic Scripture, nor is it intended to.

I think it is very confusing to compare the actions of impotent man to the actions of the sovereign God.  God does not "force" a loving relationship upon unregenerate man.  He regenerates man and gives him a desire to have the relationship.  If He did not do so then no one would desire a loving relationship with God.  Simply, "We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

God bless

 

[dignitized]

The messages of Scripture are the Messages of Scripture be they found in poetry, history, or prophecy.

Many are called [wooed] FEW are chosen.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Reformationist
The Song of Solomon is poetry.  It should be read as such.  Granted, it is divinely inspired poetry but it does not carry the same literary message as non-poetic Scripture, nor is it intended to.

I think it is very confusing to compare the actions of impotent man to the actions of the sovereign God.  God does not "force" a loving relationship upon unregenerate man.  He regenerates man and gives him a desire to have the relationship.  If He did not do so then no one would desire a loving relationship with God.  Simply, "We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

God bless

Reformationist,

And "who" is it that has decided that it does not carry a literary message?  Is it "humans" who are leaning upon their own understanding?

I think it is very confusing to not compare the picture Solomon has drawn for us as comparable with the Savior Jesus, our Beloved.I guess God deals with me differently than He does you.

While to you SOS may be just poetry, to me it is the voice of my Beloved calling out to me to come away with Him. I am His and He is mine, and His banner over me is love.

When I find myself in the rocky and rough places of where He has led me, He asks me to show Him my face. Although He already sees me as I am He asks me to reveal myself to Him.

God says He is a husband to the one who has no husband. That would fit me.  I have yet to read the SOS without weeping with gratitude for His wooing.  He loved me even when I was unlovable.

That's the way He works with me anyway,

Be blessed,

Quaffer

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
The messages of Scripture are the Messages of Scripture be they found in poetry, history, or prophecy.

Many are called [wooed] FEW are chosen.

I didn't say they weren't important.  But if you think the same method for interpretation should be used for the different literary styles used throughout the Bible you're wrong.

God bless