Where do you stand?

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Where do you stand?  I'm just looking forward to the results of the poll.

ARE YOU ARMINIAN:

1) Free will-although man has partially fallen due to the Fall, man can still choose to do good over evil as part of his free will.  As Charles Finney said, "The sinner has all natural abilities requesite to render perfect obedience to God."

2) Conditional election- Predestination is in the Bible; there's just no way around it.  BUT, God predestined all those whom He knew would come to faith on their own by their free will.

3) Universal redemption- Christ died for all.  The intention was to allow salvation for everyone so that all may be saved.

4) Resistible regeneration- the Holy Spirit tries to sanctify and call, but sometimes fails due to man's free will to reject the Holy Spirit.  Thus, sometimes His plan is frustrated by our actions.

5) Falling from grace- Since man is saving by accepting Christ, and salvation is dependent on the efficacy of the faith we choose by free will, then man can conversely lose his salvation by rejecting Him.  We receive salvation by accepting Him; we lose salvation by rejecting Him.

OR, are you CALVINIST:

1) Total Depravity- Man is thoroughly corrupted due to the Fall, and slaves to our lusts and the devil.  God's common grace allows man to choose good in some cases.  Independent of this grace, there is no free will, only a will free of righteousness.

2) Unconditional election- Since man cannot choose good, and cannot choose God, God must choose us if there is to any salvation at all.  If He saves and all due to our corruption deserve condemnation, God can choose to save whom He wills.

3) Limited Atonement- If God the Father decreed who will be saved by Christ's atonement, then it is for those decreed that Christ died.  Christ died for the elect; those whom He intended to save.

Irresistible grace- If man can't choose God, God chooses to save, and Christ atoned for the elect, the Holy Spirit will effectively and effectually call them into salvation.  The elect will hear His voice, and will convert no matter what.

5) Perseverance of the saints- if salvation from beginning to end is a decree of God, then the elect regenerated by the Holy Spirit will persevere in His grace and truth until the end.  Those who fall away were never saved.  If saved, you cannot fall away from grace or lose your salvation.

So what's the verdict?

 

[ZiSunka]

I'm not any of those things!

I don't think either calvanism or ariminiansim has it all together, so I don't side up with either of them. I think calvanism has some interesting points, but so does arminianism. But I can't completely agree with either of them.

Besides, they were both created by humans, and humans, by nature, are imperfect in their understanding of the chraracter and workings of God. So to say that any human is able to capture the essence of God in a manifesto is very boastful but incorrect.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Originally posted by lambslove
I'm not any of those things!

I don't think either calvanism or ariminiansim has it all together, so I don't side up with either of them. I think calvanism has some interesting points, but so does arminianism. But I can't completely agree with either of them.

Besides, they were both created by humans, and humans, by nature, are imperfect in their understanding of the chraracter and workings of God. So to say that any human is able to capture the essence of God in a manifesto is very boastful but incorrect.

In 1610, Jacob Arminius (a professor in Holland) died, and his followers tried to protest against what was already universally accepted among us as Christians.  They gave the five points.

At the Synod of Dort in 1618, they examined the Scriptures daily, for over half a year.  After 154 sessions of examing the five points of Arminianism in the light of the Scriptures, it was rejected.

Then the immature, witty Calvinists lol, decided to respond to their Dutch friends with something they could relate to.  They were in Holland, and they sent him TULIP.  More later.

But doctrines aren't created out of arrogance.  It's in response to heresy.

Actually, though man is imperfect, God is perfect, and it is my understanding that God would not allow man to live in fundamental error for so long.  These five points are organized ways of putting thought down.

If you believe that since man is imperfect, everything we do as a result is imperfect, then the Bible must be erroneous. 

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

So... I guess... that... we're all... Calvinist? Cool beans!

 

[Blackhawk]

Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is heresy. I fall somewhere in the middle. I am close to what today we call Calvinism but I really like Jacob Arminius' theology which is not really the theology of the arminians today. So i guess I might be the closest to his theology although not really his either. He just had some very interesting thoughts.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Indeed, Arminians today have completely taken out that some are predestined altogether. I don't see how they can reconcile that with the Scriptures.

It's good to hear that you have considered it all and are interested agree with some Calvinism but some Arminianism as well.

What part of Calvinism do you not agree with, and what part of Arminianism do you agree with?

I'm getting the haunting dread that there are only three Calvinists on this forum that I can think of!

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
If you believe that since man is imperfect, everything we do as a result is imperfect, then the Bible must be erroneous. 

Boy that's a long way from what I said!

And I maintain that I am neither fully arminian nor fully calvanist.

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

That's cool.

We never claimed to capture God in anything though.

We do our best to try to capture what He DID FOR US. That's the difference.

Well, then, what are your views on salvation, in short? However you answer, you're going to fit a combination.

 

[RevKidd]

I don't proclaim to be a follower of either John Calvin or Jacob Arminius. 

8 years ago I never heard of either, I just new what I had read and studied and what I believed.  I believed that all men could accept the Christ, but then you have to also believe in predestination in some form or another if you believe that God is all knowing. 

I have always felt that I could lose my salvation if I turned my back on God, even though some calvinists would say that I was never saved to begin with, even though I have been a christian and true believer since the age of 7. 

So in short, I have never claimed to be either a Calvinist or Arminian in my theology.  Only, that I believe what the word says to me and through the Holy Spirit. 

I have a concern when we put faith and doctrine in the hands of human man, and base all that we teach and say off what they said 1500 years ago.  Sure we can read and learn and study and gain much knowledge from their wisdom.  But to say that one is a heretic and one is not IMHO is not justifiable.  Scripture supports both stances of Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
That's cool.

We never claimed to capture God in anything though.

We do our best to try to capture what He DID FOR US. That's the difference.

Well, then, what are your views on salvation, in short? However you answer, you're going to fit a combination.

I fully agree that I affliate with a combination of c & a beliefs.

I'm not trying to create a new belief system, just to say that calvanism, arminianism, who cares? What really gets accomplished by the whole debate? In fact, I think that both systems have some major problems and even a combination of them does not adequately describe the reality of God and His plan of salvation. It's a moot and pointless debate at which Christians spend too much time, to the detriment of the real work of the Christian life. Throw over the c/a debate and go into all the world and tell all people the Good News.

 

[RevKidd]

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<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: 11px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; COLOR: #ffffff; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #828fa2"><I>Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777 </I>
<B>That's cool.

We never claimed to capture God in anything though.

We do our best to try to capture what He DID FOR US. That's the difference.

Well, then, what are your views on salvation, in short? However you answer, you're going to fit a combination. </B></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I fully agree that I affliate with a combination of c &amp; a beliefs.

I'm not trying to create a new belief system, just to say that calvanism, arminianism, who cares? What really gets accomplished by the whole debate? In fact, I think that both systems have some major problems and even a combination of them does not adequately describe the reality of God and His plan of salvation. It's a moot and pointless debate at which Christians spend too much time, to the detriment of the real work of the Christian life. Throw over the c/a debate and go into all the world and tell all people the Good News</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>&nbsp;

Amen to that...

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Before, I was an Arminian and wondered why people debated such. I saw it as a petty issue.

Before I was a CHristian if you would have asked me why I could go to heaven, I would have given you my resume on how good I was.

I became a Christian Arminian, or inbetween, and if you asked me how I would have entered heaven, I would have looked God in the eyes and said, now I can be here because I have faith.

Now, when I see God, I will fall down as dead, arms spread on the ground, weeping as a criminal. Your entire theology changes; the entire relationship changes. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[ZiSunka]

I think I see it as a petty issue because it is a petty issue.

 

[Reformationist]

Well, I know that many say I'm a "Calvinist" but I call myself a Christian who believes that the points represented by the acronym T.U.L.I.P. best explain the Gospel.

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

I do not have specific theological or denominational categories to describe myself. I adhere to certain concepts that I find in scripture, but you will not hear me say I am a this or that. You will only hear me say I am a Christian.

 

[SUNSTONE]

Where do I stand? Well..... right now I am sitting.

Calvy or Army....hmmmm they are both wrong, and I am right.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Where do I stand? Well..... right now I am sitting.

Calvy or Army....hmmmm they are both wrong, and I am right.

&nbsp;

Oh are'nt you silly&nbsp; &nbsp;

I sorta know one from another but bisically have no idea where I fit in that poll&nbsp;

I'm a Christian.&nbsp; I follow Christ.

 

[SUNSTONE]

God told me about "predestination" verse. He didn't explain it to me, because he said there is some things that I need to learn first before that can be explained.

I am definitly not calvinist, but I can't say I am arm. but I do lean more to those beliefs.

I believe that everyone has free will.
" reaps what they sow.
God wants everyone to come to repentance, and the full knowledge of Jesus. (to be saved)

I don't believe that man is scum bags who just can't help themselves from sinning. I believe that we are held accountable for are sins, and that are hearts are weighed out for punishment on those sins. Not that Christians are going to hell, but that we could end up like Esa (sp?) who sold his birth right for a bowl of pourage, and even with tears of repentance could not get that birth right back(can you hold a hot coal to your bossom and not get burned?).

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

You're certainly welcome to believe what you wish. If you want to discuss total depravity, PM me, and I'd be THRILLED.

But this thread is for peace and gathering information.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
You're certainly welcome to believe what you wish. If you want to discuss total depravity, PM me, and I'd be THRILLED.

But this thread is for peace and gathering information.

I think Sunstone's response was peaceful and informative.&nbsp;