Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

[Radrook]

Why?

Because he has the power to enforce his will. He isn't just described as simply speaking things into existence. He is described as sending out a force called his spirit to accomplish things.

Psalm 104:30 ►
New International Version
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.

Genesis 1:2
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Such a force is compared to how humans use their fingers and a hands to fashion things.

Exodus 31:18
When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

Psalm 8:3
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;

Psalm 19:1

The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands

122 Bible verses about Hand Of God

BTW
I know that you as an atheist don't place much value on scriptures as proving truth. But I offer them anyway in order to prove that I am not simply expressing my own peculiar ideas for the benefit of those who might take umbrage

That there is energy involved in his a creative powerful effort is clearly revealed in the following scripture:

Isaiah 40:26 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one and calls forth each of them by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

Psalm 104:2
Covering Yourself with light as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven like a tent curtain.

 

[Larniavc]

Because it is His creation. He made it. Understand that God is spirit, and creates through force of will.
Thus all that comes from His will obeys His will.

Well that does not make sense. My son is my creation and he certainly does not obey my will.

Just exactly why does his creation obey his will after the act of creation?

 

[just a believing guy]

Well that does not make sense. My son is my creation and he certainly does not obey my will.

Just exactly why does his creation obey his will after the act of creation?

All his actions, whether you accept it or not, will be marked by your will you have invested in his upbringing. So yes, he does obey your will.

 

[Radrook]

Well that does not make sense. My son is my creation and he certainly does not obey my will.

Just exactly why does his creation obey his will after the act of creation?

Reasoning creatures who have free will have a choice.

As for inanimate objects, that's like asking:: "Why does a table assume the form of a table simply because the carpenter wishes it to and fashions it into shape?"

Obviously the table has no choice.

 

[Radrook]

All his actions, whether you accept it or not, will be marked by your will you have invested in his upbringing. So yes, he does obey your will.

How is a disobedient son obeying his father's will?

Ephesians 2:1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3We all lived among them at one time in the cravings of our flesh, indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.

Also, some children turn out bad regardless of how they are raised. Everything cannot be attributed to bad upbringing.

 

[just a believing guy]

How is a disobedient son obeying his father's will?

By submitting his will to the father's.

 

[Radrook]

By submitting his will to the father's.

So you are saying that the Father/God wants his children to sin?

 

[just a believing guy]

So you are saying that the Father/God wants his children to sin?

No, but in the parable of the disobedient son we see that the father let the obedient son protest -- in order to promote the disobedient son's even greater repentance; not just before his father, but also before his brother.

Therefore, I think that God lets us sin so that when we see our fault we don't acknowledge that we are imperfect just before our Father but also before our brethren.

 

[Larniavc]

Why does a table assume the form of a table simply because the carpenter wishes it to and fashions it into shape?"

Yes but we can see how and by what method the table was created.

I'm asking how God does it. Simply saying 'his will' no more explains the method than explaining how a table is built by saying 'his will'.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I am an Evolutionary Theist........

I am of the belief that a being with "Godlike" technological capability

began, far far far far far more than 13.72 billion years ago, in
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy that to at least some
degree corresponds with "Energy from Quantum Vacuum."


This Intelligence learned and learned, and experimented..... .and
designed Big Bang type events, nearly an infinite number of them,
and eventually, around 13.72 billion year or so ago began our.......
Big Bang event that led to the evolution plus creation of
all the life forms that we see here on earth.

Sorry, an Easter Bunny laying chocolate eggs, is more probable than your theory.

 

[Radrook]

Yes but we can see how and by what method the table was created.

I'm asking how God does it. Simply saying 'his will' no more explains the method than explaining how a table is built by saying 'his will'.

I explained that in my reply in post 101.

He uses his power often described as his hand or spirit to manipulate things. He has access to nature in the same way humans do with remote-controlled
machines.

One command or input and the machinery does what it is built to do or told to do. Such an assumption should not be difficult to imagine since he is described as being almighty.

 

[Widlast]

Well that does not make sense. My son is my creation and he certainly does not obey my will.

Just exactly why does his creation obey his will after the act of creation?

First off, your son is not your creation. You played a very minor part in his inception, but you are hardly his creator. You do not possess anything even vaguely resembling that kind of power.
This may come as a shock to you, but you are not God.

Creation obeys God's will because He designed it so that it would.
Behave yourself and at some point you will be able to discuss the issue with Him personally.

 

[Larniavc]

First off, your son is not your creation. You played a very minor part in his inception, but you are hardly his creator. You do not possess anything even vaguely resembling that kind of power.
This may come as a shock to you, but you are not God.

Creation obeys God's will because He designed it so that it would.
Behave yourself and at some point you will be able to discuss the issue with Him personally.

Nah, 50%ish of his genes are taken directly from me so I'm his co-creator with my lovely wife.

Dunno where you pulled the idea I think I'm a god from.

 

[Widlast]

Nah, 50%ish of his genes are taken directly from me so I'm his co-creator with my lovely wife.

Dunno where you pulled the idea I think I'm a god from.

Actually, a bit less than 50% of his genes, none of his mitochondrial genetics, and due to DNA recombination a bit of what was "your" DNA is now reorganized as is unique to your son. You had nothing whatsoever to do with his growth though. If your son had stayed an undeveloped zygote you might have some claim, but as he did not, nope.
You also did not have anything whatsoever to do with his soul, though you may believe he does not have one.

 

[Larniavc]

Actually, a bit less than 50% of his genes, none of his mitochondrial genetics, and due to DNA recombination a bit of what was "your" DNA is now reorganized as is unique to your son. You had nothing whatsoever to do with his growth though. If your son had stayed an undeveloped zygote you might have some claim, but as he did not, nope.
You also did not have anything whatsoever to do with his soul, though you may believe he does not have one.

Not so. My wife and I have contributed to almost 100% of the resources he has consumed for him to grow to his two year old state.

We have also provided the lions share of resources to provide a supportive social learning environment.

I find it surprising you deem the ongoing parental role as so minor in the growth and development of a young child.

That's a real head scratcher.

ABE: being two years old he can take no comment on the existence of a soul.

 

[Widlast]

Not so. My wife and I have contributed to almost 100% of the resources he has consumed for him to grow to his two year old state.

We have also provided the lions share of resources to provide a supportive social learning environment.

I find it surprising you deem the ongoing parental role as so minor in the growth and development of a young child.

That's a real head scratcher.

ABE: being two years old he can take no comment on the existence of a soul.

I never said that you have not provided for his development.
Your claim was that you CREATED him.
Humans do not have the ability to create matter, only modify it.
The only thing that humans can actually create are concepts, such as art or music.

 

[Larniavc]

No, you're wrong. My sperm and my wife's egg was created in our bodies.

Then, because we loved each other very much and made a decision to create life we did so: on our own.

I was there.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Yes but we can see how and by what method the table was created.

I'm asking how God does it. Simply saying 'his will' no more explains the method than explaining how a table is built by saying 'his will'.

Who knows, when we truly understand the things made, we will have those answers and all excuses will vanish. Romans 1:20

We don't understand how protons, neutrons and electrons are made, let alone how they are assembled. But we do understand it is energy that binds them, infuses them, and from which they were made. That invisible power from which all things are, is in all things, and to which all things will return. That energy which can neither be created nor destroyed so has always existed and will always exist.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

The rate of biological evolution can be measured and calculated.
What is the rate of your intelligence of evolution? Is it a constant?

But it can't be measured accurately at all. God stretched out the heavens, even modern cosmology believes the universe is accelerating. Clocks slow with increases in velocity. So the rate clocks tick today is NOT the same rate they ticked in the past. The further one calculates back in time the faster clocks ticked and the faster decay rates occurred.

Just ask the twin who believed his decay rates were constant until he returned to the stationary frame and found out he was wrong, that his clocks had ticked slower and he had decayed slower, even though he sincerely believed he had not.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

No, you're wrong. My sperm and my wife's egg was created in our bodies.

Which you had no conscious control of, nor could you direct which egg joined with which sperm. So you personally by your own will created nothing. Your will only brought what already existed into a position where life might or might not have happened. Apparently it happened, but not because you willed it to. It was pure chance that egg met with that sperm. You raised him, but had no choice in the billions of possibilities your son could have been.

I've made tables and chairs, but never created a single one, just assembled what already existed.