Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

[DennisTate]

I am an Evolutionary Theist........

I am of the belief that a being with "Godlike" technological capability

began, far far far far far more than 13.72 billion years ago, in
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy that to at least some
degree corresponds with "Energy from Quantum Vacuum."


This Intelligence learned and learned, and experimented..... .and
designed Big Bang type events, nearly an infinite number of them,
and eventually, around 13.72 billion year or so ago began our.......
Big Bang event that led to the evolution plus creation of
all the life forms that we see here on earth.

 

[Widlast]

Technology has nothing to do with the issue. God creates through force of will.
All of reality is His creation and obeys His will.

As far as the OP goes, intelligence started with God, who is neither matter nor energy, but spirit.

 

[Greg J.]

Intelligence begins when one recognizes there is no verifiable evidence that explains why the big bang occurred.

 

[miamited]

Hi dennis,

Intelligence, that is the ability for a being to think and reason, has existed for all eternity with God. Just as with God Himself, there is no end or beginning to His existence. In this realm, intelligence began within six days of its beginning and the cause of its beginning is God.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

 

[Speedwell]

Intelligence begins when one recognizes there is no verifiable evidence that explains why the big bang occurred.

So intelligence begins with science.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So intelligence begins with science.

More like with the beginning of faith.

 

[Greg J.]

So intelligence begins with science.

I was using tongue-in-cheek to refer to an individual's intelligence. Sorry for the dry humor (which doesn't work on the Internet very well).

 

[DennisTate]

Technology has nothing to do with the issue. God creates through force of will.
All of reality is His creation and obeys His will.

As far as the OP goes, intelligence started with God, who is neither matter nor energy, but spirit.

You could be correct.....
I don't know for certain but the idea of God being first and foremost a Scientist, Inventor
who conducted experiments and found out how to create lower and lower and lower energy level
dimensions / universes.......

could be a way for Christian and Jewish scientists to break the stronghold that Atheists have on
so much of science.

Investing an astonishing level of effort over essentially infinite time in the past to
work out a series of Big Bang type events would cause a Being composed of fundamental or nearly
fundamental energy to be deeply emotionally attached to the creation.........


Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

The following writing sounds amazingly similar to The Cyclic Model of the Universe
as explained by Stephen Hawking Ph. D. in his book "Stephen Hawkings' Universe"
in chapter 13, The Anthropic Principle.

He is an Atheist and uses words that describe it in a way that fits with his view of the
universe but....... Perhaps God was a Scientist before God got into
Philosophy and Theology?

If God in a sense learned..... or got better and better at organizing something like Big Bang events.... then God in a sense evolved......... which can fit perfectly with Adam and Eve being created 6000 or so years ago.
........
(Mellen Benedict, near-death .com)

As I passed into the second light, the awareness came to me that I had just transcended the truth. Those are the best words I have for it, but I will try to explain. As I passed into the second light, I expanded beyond the first light. I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond infinity. I was in the void. I was in pre-creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time - the first word - the first vibration. I was in the eye of creation. I felt as if I was touching the face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with absolute life and consciousness.

When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That's a mind-expanding thought, isn't it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event which created the universe. I saw that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by supercomputers using fractal geometry equations.

 

[DennisTate]

Hi dennis,

Intelligence, that is the ability for a being to think and reason, has existed for all eternity with God. Just as with God Himself, there is no end or beginning to His existence. In this realm, intelligence began within six days of its beginning and the cause of its beginning is God.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

Could one of the first sentences have been somewhat along the line of....."I Think.... therefore I AM!" (God)

Fundamental energy, according to String Theory seems to have two forms.....
Super Strings... and Super Waves......

The seem to correspond roughly with Light.... and Gravity.....?

 

[DennisTate]

Intelligence begins when one recognizes there is no verifiable evidence that explains why the big bang occurred.

But..... if God wasn't learning more and more and more about creating......
why did God wait until 6000 or so years ago to create Adam and Eve?

https://www.amazon.com/Biocosm-Scien.../dp/1930722222

Biocosm: The New Scientific Theory of Evolution: Intelligent Life Is the Architect of the Universe

Biocosm challenges both sides of the controversy over evolution and creationism. This carefully reasoned book proposes that life and intelligence have not emerged as a series of random accidents, as Darwinists like Stephen Jay Gould have maintained, but are hardwired into the cycle of cosmic creation, evolution, death, and rebirth. Gardner's theory of an exponential coevolution of biological and electronic intelligence, designed and directed, offers an extraordinary vision of a universe of point and purpose. Stunning color photos are included.

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com Review

For many years, traditional cosmologists and proponents of faith-based "intelligent design" have fought over the origin of the universe. One side maintains that pure chance can explain everything; the other that there must be a God. In Biocosm, James Gardner examines the evidence and finds a third hypothesis, one that has the approval of a number of noted skeptics and scientists. He calls it the "Selfish Biocosm," in a nod to Richard Dawkins, and outlines it in this homage to Charles Darwin. Gardner states his hypothesis:

The basic idea is that the anthropic, or life-friendly, qualities that our universe exhibits are logical and predictable consequences of a cosmic reproduction cycle in which a cosmologically extended biosphere, developed and evolved over billions of years to unimaginable levels of sophistication, serves as the device by which our cosmos duplicates itself and propagates one or more "baby universes."

Like many of the sentences in Biocosm, this one requires multiple readings before its meaning and ramifications sink in. This is not an easygoing, blow-your-mind look at the universe. Gardner is meticulous in outlining his ideas, explaining their falsifiability and scientific rigor, and offering deep chaos theory to support them. Did our universe create intelligent life in order to ensure its own reproduction? Gardner thinks so, though he knows his position will irk many cosmologists exhausted from battling pseudoscientists and creationists. His impressive list of scientific supporters includes Sir Martin Rees (Britain's Astronomer Royal), Michael Shermer (publisher of Skeptic magazine), and John Casti (Santa Fe Institute honcho). Biocosm synthesizes many disciplines and theories in its conclusions, offering much food for cosmological thought. --Therese Littleton

From Publishers Weekly
Science has yet to find a way of knowing what, if anything, existed before the Big Bang that created our universe. Further, how can we account for physical laws that are so finely tuned for the creation of carbon-based life? Science writer and amateur cosmologist Gardner proposes a startling theory: that a pre-existing superintelligent race that inhabited a "mother universe" created this one and tweaked the physical laws in its baby universe to ensure the continuity of intelligent life and of the cosmos itself; this universe, then, will foster the growth of a new superintelligence eons from now with complete command over the laws of nature and the ability to create yet more universes with inheritable characteristics. Thus, Gardner argues, our universe is a "Selfish Biocosm" that created intelligent life to ensure its own survival. Gardner marshals cutting-edge thinking in cosmology, string theory and the associated M theory, and complexity theory to support his ideas. Readers may want to jump to chapter 15 for a full statement of his theory, since the pr‚cis in his introduction is vague; still, this is not for casual readers of popular science. If one doesn't favor an explanation for the creation of life that involves a deity of some sort, then Gardner's theory seems a plausible alternative, though some readers may feel that speculating on superintelligences in pre-existing universes may be akin to Darwin's proverbial dog speculating on the mind of Newton. 8-page color insert not seen by PW.

Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

 

[DennisTate]

More like with the beginning of faith.

This theory can actually increase Faith......
because the more we research this the more it is obvious that we are dealing with
a Creator.... that has essentially INFINITE TECHNOLOGICAL CAPABILITY.

NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

Poll: NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.

......

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)

 

[Widlast]

You could be correct.....
I don't know for certain but the idea of God being first and foremost a Scientist, Inventor
who conducted experiments and found out how to create lower and lower and lower energy level
dimensions / universes.......

could be a way for Christian and Jewish scientists to break the stronghold that Atheists have on
so much of science.

Investing an astonishing level of effort over essentially infinite time in the past to
work out a series of Big Bang type events would cause a Being composed of fundamental or nearly
fundamental energy to be deeply emotionally attached to the creation.........


Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

Could God be the most emotional being in the universe????

The following writing sounds amazingly similar to The Cyclic Model of the Universe
as explained by Stephen Hawking Ph. D. in his book "Stephen Hawkings' Universe"
in chapter 13, The Anthropic Principle.

He is an Atheist and uses words that describe it in a way that fits with his view of the
universe but....... Perhaps God was a Scientist before God got into
Philosophy and Theology?

If God in a sense learned..... or got better and better at organizing something like Big Bang events.... then God in a sense evolved......... which can fit perfectly with Adam and Eve being created 6000 or so years ago.
........
(Mellen Benedict, near-death .com)

I'm sorry, but I think you are missing the point by miles.
Science is a methodology, nothing more. Don't give it praise it does not deserve.
The Eternal God is above and beyond all the simpleminded theories and methodologies that
mankind so vainly clings to.
He is the author of all.

 

[DennisTate]

So intelligence begins with science.

Sort of!


www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

Dr. Chaim Tejman does an excellent job of explaining how Wave Theory relates to every phenomena that we observe on this earth.The Fundamental Force

"The prevalent and prevailing consensus points to four fundamental forces —
electromagnetism, gravitation, as well as strong and weak nuclear forces — but I
aver that there is only one force: energetic matter. The energetic matter
creates wave formations are expressed exclusively by the two principle behaviors
(forces) of pushing and pulling." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

The Fundamental Force

"The swirling and spinning motion creates circular formations. To finish
constructing the wave, the energetic matter must complete two semi-circular rounds. The figures are executed perpendicular to each other, and their energetic paths are in a state of superposition. The closed formation allows the energetic matter to move along closed energetic paths and maintain its energetic matter. It creates two internal swirls (vortices), which are neither identical nor symmetrical. In other words, the same type of energetic matter that moves along a common path that is shared by both swirls within a particular wave formation. Nevertheless, the swirls do not contain equal amounts of energy even in units with the same amount of space." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

I personally agree with Dr. Tejman that Wave Theory explains a lot even about gender differences.Wave Theory and Gender: Why Sex

"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

Gravity / Super Waves / Feminine / The Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh.

Light / Super Strings / Masculine / The Ancient of Days the Father.......

Gravity plus Light..... Logos / The Word......

 

[DennisTate]

I'm sorry, but I think you are missing the point by miles.
Science is a methodology, nothing more. Don't give it praise it does not deserve.
The Eternal God is above and beyond all the simpleminded theories and methodologies that
mankind so vainly clings to.
He is the author of all.

I actually think this as well but......
I feel that I am in no position to rule out the possibility that God.....
was a Scientist / Inventor and Choreographer of Big Bang type events in
eleventh.... later in tenth.... later in ninth... later in eighth.... later in seventh.... later in sixth... later in fifth
space time dimensional energy..... we can observe and seem to live in the fourth dimension/ length / breadth / width plus time.....

.... but the existence of invisible higher dimensions as stated in String Theory
does not seem to contradict the existence of angels and other powerful life forms
above us humans.......

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am an Evolutionary Theist........

I am of the belief that a being with "Godlike" technological capability

began, far far far far far more than 13.72 billion years ago, in
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy that to at least some
degree corresponds with "Energy from Quantum Vacuum."


This Intelligence learned and learned, and experimented..... .and
designed Big Bang type events, nearly an infinite number of them,
and eventually, around 13.72 billion year or so ago began our.......
Big Bang event that led to the evolution plus creation of
all the life forms that we see here on earth.

The correct answer is not included in the options of the poll.

That correct answer is: first intelligence arose in the first physical brain.

 

[DennisTate]

The correct answer is not included in the options of the poll.

That correct answer is: first intelligence arose in the first physical brain.

But the first "Brain" would not necessarily have any hydrogen, oxygen, carbon or nitrogen in it
such as we humans have..... The First Intelligence would be energy......... Theoretical Physicists write about
invisible higher dimensions of space - time as we approach more and more and more and more fundamental levels of energy......

Truly fundamental energy.... .from our perspective...... would exist in the tenth and / or eleventh dimension of space - time,
(M- Theory) but I lean toward Bosonic String Theory that postulates 26 or more dimensions of space - time.

Fundamental energy, by its nature, would tend to form into circuitry that would resemble
how energy moves around in the circuitry of a computer.

If we word this correctly...... .to appeal to scientific minds.... .we can assist President Trump's
new Education Secretary to have something to work with that will begin to break our young
people out of the strangle hold that dogmatic Atheists like Richard Dawkins Ph. D. have our
kids into.



Here are some quotations on the basic ideas behind Grand Unified Theory and String Theory:

"It was not until 1920 that the idea of linking electromagnetism and
gravity resurfaced. At that time a new theory of gravitation had been proposed by Albert Einstein (1879-1955), called the general theory of relativity. It was a replacement of Newton's theory, which had stood unchallenged since 1687. Inspired by Einstein's work, a young German mathematician named Theodore Kaluza was seized by a curious idea. The theory of relativity links space an time together to form a four-dimensional space-time continuum. What would happen, mused Kaluza, if general relativity were formulated in five rather than four dimensions? This is what Kaluza did, and to everyone's astonishment it was discovered that five-dimensional gravity obeys the same laws as
four-dimensional gravity as well as Maxwell's laws for the electromagnetic field. In other words, gravitation and electromagnetism are automatically unified in five dimensions, where electromagnetism is merely a component of gravity!"

The only drawback of the theory concerns the extra dimension. Why
don't we see it? An ingenious answer was provided by Oskar Klein. A
hosepipe viewed from afar looks like a wiggly line, i.e. one- dimensional.
However, on closer inspection it can be seen as a narrow tube. It is, in fact,
two-dimensional, and what was taken to be a point on the line is actually a
little circle going around the tube. In the same way, reasoned Klein, what we normally regard as a point in three dimensional space could in reality be a little circle going around a fourth space dimension. Thus Kaluza's extra
dimension might well exist, but be impossible to detect because it is closed
(circular) and rolled up to a very small circumference. In spite of
these bizarre overtones, it seems probable that in future a "theory of everything" will make use of the idea of unseen higher dimensions."
....

"Although nature manifests four distinct forces, physicists believe that
each may be part of a smaller number of more primitive forces. At high energy, the electromagnetic and weak forces appear to merge into a single "electroweak" force. Some "grand unified theories" suggest that a further amalgamation takes place between the electroweak and strong forces at as yet unattained energies. The most ambitious unification schemes envisage an amalgamation of all four forces into a single "superforce" at ultra-high levels of energy."...

"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World of Science)

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But the first "Brain" would not necessarily have any hydrogen, oxygen, carbon or nitrogen in it
such as we humans have..... The First Intelligence would be energy

First, I wonder about the capilization of the words "the first intelligence".
Second, the way I understand the word "intelligence", mere energy does not qualify. Intelligence implies abilities to process input and produce output through some process of reasoning. In nature, I only know of one object / composition that is capable of doing that, and that is a living physical brain.

......... Theoretical Physicists write about
invisible higher dimensions of space - time as we approach more and more and more and more fundamental levels of energy......

Truly fundamental energy.... .from our perspective...... would exist in the tenth and / or eleventh dimension of space - time,
(M- Theory) but I lean toward Bosonic String Theory that postulates 26 or more dimensions of space - time.

Fundamental energy, by its nature, would tend to form into circuitry that would resemble
how energy moves around in the circuitry of a computer.

If we word this correctly...... .to appeal to scientific minds.... .we can assist President Trump's
new Education Secretary to have something to work with that will begin to break our young
people out of the strangle hold that dogmatic Atheists like Richard Dawkins Ph. D. have our
kids into.

Here are some quotations on the basic ideas behind Grand Unified Theory and String Theory:

I have no idea what you are rambling about, nore do I see what this has to do with "intelligence".

 

[DennisTate]

First, I wonder about the capilization of the words "the first intelligence".
Second, the way I understand the word "intelligence", mere energy does not qualify. Intelligence implies abilities to process input and produce output through some process of reasoning. In nature, I only know of one object / composition that is capable of doing that, and that is a living physical brain.



I have no idea what you are rambling about, nore do I see what this has to do with "intelligence".

Those quotations on String Theory remind me greatly of what was shown to
near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943, long before
a basic understanding of this was available to high school students.

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.



Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.



Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."



They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

Return to Top receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

........

.........

e. His Observations of the Temple of Wisdom

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. Anenormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.

Return to Top Book of Revelation (see also Revelation 21:10-27.) This is the place where people go who have become like Jesus while on Earth - a place where love is the dominant focus of life. This is heaven he realizes; but he is not allowed to enter it. Instead, Jesus shows him the future of Earth and is told to return to his physical body. At this point, Ritchie is revived from death.

 

[DennisTate]

First, I wonder about the capilization of the words "the first intelligence".
Second, the way I understand the word "intelligence", mere energy does not qualify. Intelligence implies abilities to process input and produce output through some process of reasoning. In nature, I only know of one object / composition that is capable of doing that, and that is a living physical brain.



I have no idea what you are rambling about, nore do I see what this has to do with "intelligence".

To be blunt... .I wasn't sure whether I should capitalize those letters or not........
but I assumed that the first..... intelligence..... would continue and learn and learn and
learn over infinite time in the past....... and it is part of our English language to
capitalize the names of people!

Here is an interview in which Richard Dawkins Ph. D., at the 3:30 mark
postulates a technologically advanced alien civilization developing that
perhaps might have seeded the earth with life millions of years ago?!

Quite frankly, I believe that Dr. Dawkins deserves credit for elaborating
on this theory..... .and in a sense.... my whole argument revolves around the
definition of "alien" because I believe that an alien life form would be most likely
to begin in....... and grow in........ fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.......
that would NOT be carbon based........ because it seems to me that carbon......
is an invention...... probably of that First Intelligence..... and / or the Word / Logos
who would be like the first born Son of fundamental energy waves and strings.

Ben Stein vs. Richard Dawkins Interview

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Those quotations on String Theory remind me greatly of what was shown to near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943, long before a basic understanding of this was available to high school students...

I see no obvious commonalities between the two - why does String Theory remind you of Dr. Ritchie's dream?