Where Arminianism Fails.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

? Come baaaack. No idea what you're on about here.

It looks like self-preservation instead of self-sacrifice.
Like instead of trusting one's life to the Eternal Creator, as Jesus always did,
trusting instead in self-intervention apart from the Eternal Creator.

 

[ebedmelech]

Arminians believe this. The verse says nothing about whether we can refuse the drawing or not. The Calvinists believe that God has to come into the prison, thump him on the head and drag him out. The Arminian believes that God comes into the prison, asks him if he wants to leave, and if he so much as nods, God carries him out. You can't tell me you never resisted the Holy Spirit. I know I did a multitude of times and still sometimes do.

To quote you.."The verse says nothing about whether we can refuse the drawing or not." why would you mention it? Find a scripture that says one can refuse God's will.

For the record, the word "draw" in John 6:44 literally means to drag...except the drawing is done by God's inward power on the individual. Here's a link on that:
Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Find a scripture that says one can refuse God's will.

Study Bible
Jesus Testifies about John
…29All the people who heard this, even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. For they had received the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.

 

[ebedmelech]

Until which point he no longer chooses Christ. "remain in me and I will remain in you."

The counter would Be what John says of those who leave Christ in 1 John 2:19:
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[Dave L]

? Come baaaack. No idea what you're on about here.

Let's define love, and then throw the word around lightly.

 

[HatGuy]

It looks like self-preservation instead of self-sacrifice.
Like instead of trusting one's life to the Eternal Creator, as Jesus always did,
trusting instead in self-intervention apart from the Eternal Creator.

Ok, but what has that to do with the point I raised with Dave? I merely pointed out that no Christian possesses the fruit of the Spirit perfectly, including faith. I asked if that means God fails in completing his work. And then I just got cryptic replies.

 

[ebedmelech]

Study Bible
Jesus Testifies about John
…29All the people who heard this, even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. For they had received the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.

This is saying they rejected God's purpose for being baptized by John. Was it not Jesus that told them "you are of your father the devil"?

 

[HatGuy]

Let's define love, and then throw the word around lightly.

Let's play the cryptic response game. I'll say something and ask a question. You'll answer by saying something very vaguely related but yet irrelevant, and won't answer the question.

Ready?

Oh we already played it.

 

[Dave L]

Let's play the cryptic response game. I'll say something and ask a question. You'll answer by saying something very vaguely related but yet irrelevant, and won't answer the question.

Ready?

Oh we already played it.

We need to define terms before throwing them around lightly.

 

[Dave L]

Ok, but what has that to do with the point I raised with Dave? I merely pointed out that no Christian possesses the fruit of the Spirit perfectly, including faith. I asked if that means God fails in completing his work. And then I just got cryptic replies.

Paul says if we walk in the Spirit we can stop temptation before it turns into sin....in so many words.

 

[fhansen]

OK, lets say they can...then what do they base the refusal on? Something had to happen in their life to influence their decision. Perhaps they had both parents killed in a car crash when they were you...and have been mad at God ever since. Because of that they rejected God. On the other hand lets say the crash didn't occur and take their parents...maybe the decision might now be to accept Jesus.

As with all free-will decisions part of the choice is based upon life happenstance.

Ok, so why did Adam effectively reject God? After all, we just continue in his sin of rebellion until we see the light-and reject/reverse his decision and orientation within ourselves. Man has a choice; man is a morally accountable being rather than an amoral beast who merely reacts to his environment-which is why we hold each other accountable for criminal or immoral acts-while also recognizing that, yes, our histories may well mitigate culpability.

 

[Strong in Him]

But where does it say those who the Father draws will not come ?

It doesn't.
But a person can be drawn to the Father but later fall away and choose not to follow, or repent and turn back.
I can imagine a churchgoer, or someone who knows about God but has not yet made a full commitment, having a tragedy/great disappointment in their lives and thinking, "so God doesn't care/love me/want to answer my prayers then" and choosing to walk away as a result. Rather like the seeds in the parable that heard the word but got choked by weeds.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It doesn't.
But a person can be drawn to the Father but later fall away and choose not to follow, or repent and turn back.

So I'm talking about being drawn by God to salvation.

Can you find an example in the N.T. where someone has been drawn to Christ for salvation by the Father and rejected that salvation ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Strong in Him]

This reduces the Gospel to a self help program.
It also reduces Jesus to a life coach

No it doesn't.
God has chosen to give us the ability to choose. He will send his Spirit to prompt us, get our attention like he did with Moses and the burning bush, or show his power through miracles as he did with Pharaoh, and also the Pharisees - but he can't make us choose, or follow, him. The Pharisees saw Lazarus walking out of the tomb; they did not praise God, they tried to kill Jesus. Earlier they had seen him driving out demons, and said that he was doing it by the power of Beelzebub - yet others saw the same miracles and believed. Jesus himself said that his miracles testified to who he was, yet some weren't interested. The rich young ruler wanted to follow Jesus, until Jesus told him to give up his wealth. The man walked away sad; Jesus did not force him to stay.

 

[HatGuy]

Paul says if we walk in the Spirit we can stop temptation before it turns into sin....in so many words.

We can stop temptation if we walk in the Spirit? That implies synergism.

so is this synergism? Where does monergism begin and end?

My point is to show that we can't look at Gal 5:22 and arbitrarily claim that all the fruit of the Spirit is synergistic bar one, faith. If all are synergistic, faith is too. If all are monergistic, then self control, kindness, gentleness, love, joy etc. is too. Making those virtues up to God to produce. But if so, why is no one perfect in such virtues? If that is so, then there is no if we walk in the Spirit, there is only an automatic walking in the Spirit.

This is especially made difficult given the verse speaks of fruit, not fruits, meaning the list indicates a series of virtues which are interrelated and can't be seperated.

So the fruit of the Spirit is either monergistic or synergistic. You can't pick out one virtue and claim that one monergistic.

So I ask you, which one is it? (We don't need to really define love here, we really just need to assess if the fruit is synergistic or monergistic).

 

[Dave L]

We can stop temptation if we walk in the Spirit? That implies synergism.

so is this synergism? Where does monergism begin and end?

My point is to show that we can't look at Gal 5:22 and arbitrarily claim that all the fruit of the Spirit is synergistic bar one, faith. If all are synergistic, faith is too. If all are monergistic, then self control, kindness, gentleness, love, joy etc. is too. Making those virtues up to God to produce. But if so, why is no one perfect in such virtues? If that is so, then there is no if we walk in the Spirit, there is only an automatic walking in the Spirit.

This is especially made difficult given the verse speaks of fruit, not fruits, meaning the list indicates a series of virtues which are interrelated and can't be seperated.

So the fruit of the Spirit is either monergistic or synergistic. You can't pick out one virtue and claim that one monergistic.

So I ask you, which one is it? (We don't need to really define love here, we really just need to assess if the fruit is synergistic or monergistic).

If you are a new person, it's still monergism. New person/same flesh.

 

[HatGuy]

If you are a new person, it's still monergism. New person/same flesh.

ok then, so why are regenerated new persons not perfect in all the virtues? Does God not perform a completed work?

 

[Dave L]

ok then, so why are regenerated new persons not perfect in all the virtues? Does God not perform a completed work?

We have Christ's imputed perfect righteousness while we thankfully work to develop our own. But sin is not necessary if we stop it at the temptation stage.

 

[HatGuy]

We have Christ's imputed perfect righteousness while we thankfully work to develop our own. But sin is not necessary if we stop it at the temptation stage.

Ok, so we have the ability to fall short or fail to one degree or another in our own development?

 

[royal priest]

No it doesn't.
God has chosen to give us the ability to choose. He will send his Spirit to prompt us, get our attention like he did with Moses and the burning bush, or show his power through miracles as he did with Pharaoh, and also the Pharisees - but he can't make us choose, or follow, him. The Pharisees saw Lazarus walking out of the tomb; they did not praise God, they tried to kill Jesus. Earlier they had seen him driving out demons, and said that he was doing it by the power of Beelzebub - yet others saw the same miracles and believed. Jesus himself said that his miracles testified to who he was, yet some weren't interested. The rich young ruler wanted to follow Jesus, until Jesus told him to give up his wealth. The man walked away sad; Jesus did not force him to stay.

What do you mean by "prompt". This sounds mildly Calvinistic to me. The elect never choose against their will. God simply gives them a heart that is willing to believe and follow. No one ever says yes to Jesus on their own, it is evidence that the Spirit has been working.
Either that or people are good enough and spiritually discerning enough to say yes on their own and God shares the Home Depot slogan "You can do it. We can help"