Where Arminianism Fails.

[jahel]

Really? No admonitions to believe-and remain faithful, or to obey the commandments, or feed the poor, no longer any obligation to be righteous or holy under the New Covenant? If we put blinders on while reading Scripture...maybe we could arrive at that conclusion.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality,he will give eternal life."

Blinders are only recommended for those running a race where there is only one winner. No one but Christ is the sole winner. But he would lose if he saved not one soul.

Seeking rewards is also a waste of time if it’s not something God has commissioned for in one’s particular life. There is no blanket statement that covers that except
1 PETER 4:11
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever.

 

[ebedmelech]

You are switching to believers now, not how to be saved. Different topic.
But, since you brought it up, he also says you have to remain in the vine or you will be cut off, as opposed to once saved, always saved.

John 6:37-40:
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

No one that God chooses in Christ will ever be lost.

 

[-57]

The point is that, while one can never accept without the Holy Spirit moving them to cooperate, they can still refuse. Grace is resistible.

OK, lets say they can...then what do they base the refusal on? Something had to happen in their life to influence their decision. Perhaps they had both parents killed in a car crash when they were you...and have been mad at God ever since. Because of that they rejected God. On the other hand lets say the crash didn't occur and take their parents...maybe the decision might now be to accept Jesus.

As with all free-will decisions part of the choice is based upon life happenstance.

 

[HatGuy]

Firstly,

Yes, as I stated God works in all humans according to His purposes, but that is not that same as saying He works good in all nor that He is perfecting all.... which is what the Philippians text stipulates.

Yes, the doctrine of prevenient grace is about good work God is doing. No volitionalist (Arminian, Wesleyan, etc.) says God doesn't do work. prevenient grace is all about God's work, His grace, His gracious work. It's a completely inferential premise, which isn't in itself a problem because lots of doctrinal positions of the church are inferential. The problem arises when we follow the "logic" of prevenient grace to its logically necessary conclusions. In this case the problematic inevitability of partially-worked-in-but-still-unregenerate-God-knowing-non-believers.

Not according to Arminianism.

Yep. Supposedly, God not only made Himself dependent upon the sinfully dead slave but He also allowed them to walk away before He'd finished or born any fruit. The entire soteriology is built on the a premise God acts fruitlessly when it comes to salvation, and He does so after Calvary!

And these too are places where volitionalism/synergism fails in addition to what is cited in the op.

We're somewhat into this conversation, but I think it's good to consider two things.

1. What is the definition of power the Bible ascribes to God?
Does the Bible see 'power' as always 'finishing the work' or as rather enabling the work to be possible? What is the most Biblical definition of power? Absolute sovereignty? Absolute determinism? Or sovereignty that provides freedom to agents?

2. Is 'logic' a necessary explanation of soteriology?
Calvinism wins the debate when it comes to logic, hands-down. If you're a 5-point Calvinist, you are the most logical Christian there is. Calvinism is much more logical than any of the alternative systems - but does that mean it's true? If something is logical, does that make it true? Is the Bible always logical? Does God only ever work logically?

3. Does God work under a cause-effect model, or an influence-response model?
I think the writer Robert Picirilli builds a pretty good case when he asks this question. Enlightenment / modern thought is very much concerned with the cause-effect model. Calvinism works under a cause-effect model (the cause of salvation is God's predetermined, hidden will. It is very mystically mechanical). But have Calvinists superimposed an Enlightenment model over God? Is cause-effect really a Hebrew way of thinking? (Surely we want to get closer to Hebrew thought if we want to understand how the Bible depicts God?).

 

[HatGuy]

Really? No admonitions to believe-and remain faithful, or to obey the commandments, or feed the poor, no longer any obligation to be righteous or holy under the New Covenant? If we put blinders on while reading Scripture...maybe we could arrive at that conclusion.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality,he will give eternal life."

I think that quote in Romans is put under a specific context where Paul is building a theoretical case that those outside of knowing Christ (or rather, those who don't hear about Christ) may make it to heaven through good works - but he shatters the case for those who have heard the gospel, by starting with Romans 3:23 ("All have fallen short"). In other words, I don't think you can use that verse in the way you are implying.

 

[renniks]

You cannot doubt what you experience. You cannot doubt Christ if you are born again anymore than you can doubt you are sitting at your computer.

I don't agree. But that's not the point. You keep ignoring the fact that belief precedes salvation. You don't become saved in order to believe. You believed and then God saved you.

 

[HatGuy]

Scripture teaches Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)

But it appears that people have some sort of ability to choose to live without love, or choose to live without joy. In other words, all the 'fruit' is imperfect in any person - no person loves perfectly, has perfect joy, etc. Likewise, no person has perfect faith. (Nevermind that the word 'faith' also could be translated as 'faithfulness' in that scripture). If the faith in a person is not perfect, did God not complete the work?

 

[renniks]

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Arminians believe this. The verse says nothing about whether we can refuse the drawing or not. The Calvinists believe that God has to come into the prison, thump him on the head and drag him out. The Arminian believes that God comes into the prison, asks him if he wants to leave, and if he so much as nods, God carries him out. You can't tell me you never resisted the Holy Spirit. I know I did a multitude of times and still sometimes do.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Arminians believe this. The verse says nothing about whether we can refuse the drawing or not. The Calvinists believe that God has to come into the prison, thump him on the head and drag him out. The Arminian believes that God comes into the prison, asks him if he wants to leave, and if he so much as nods, God carries him out. You can't tell me you never resisted the Holy Spirit. I know I did a multitude of times and still sometimes do.

It reads pretty clear from Jesus that those who have been drawn will come and no one can come unless they have been drawn.


John 6:37,44-45
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

hope this helps !!!

 

[renniks]

No one that God chooses in Christ will ever be lost.

Until which point he no longer chooses Christ. "remain in me and I will remain in you."

 

[renniks]

And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

hope this helps !!!

Yes it does... It tells me that one can choose to be taught by God, and come to Christ or refuse to.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes it does... It tells me that one can choose to be taught by God, and come to Christ or refuse to.

But where does it say those who the Father draws will not come ?

 

[royal priest]

Until which point he no longer chooses Christ. "remain in me and I will remain in you."

This reduces the Gospel to a self help program.
It also reduces Jesus to a life coach

 

[Mistavega]

Calvinism always made absolutely no sense to me based on the fact it makes God the author of evil. All the time I hear someone talk about Calvinism they can never reconcile Gods sovereignty with the evil that occurs In the world.

On Calvinism how is anything you do consequential if God just determines everything? Moreover, how do you as an individual even exist if God determined everything you do? What sense does it make to say well I chose this or I chose that, who is even doing the choosing? Certainly not you because you don’t exist. To have a sense of identity it requires the ability to choose.

Calvinism is the most irrational position one can take.

 

[royal priest]

On Calvinism how is anything you do consequential if God just determines everything? Moreover, how do you as an individual even exist if God determined everything you do? What sense does it make to say well I chose this or I chose that, who is even doing the choosing? Certainly not you because you don’t exist. To have a sense of identity it requires the ability to choose.

Calvinism is the most irrational position one can take.

If eating bread requires our obtaining bread, then why pray everyday for God to give us bread?

 

[Dave L]

But it appears that people have some sort of ability to choose to live without love, or choose to live without joy. In other words, all the 'fruit' is imperfect in any person - no person loves perfectly, has perfect joy, etc. Likewise, no person has perfect faith. (Nevermind that the word 'faith' also could be translated as 'faithfulness' in that scripture). If the faith in a person is not perfect, did God not complete the work?

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Why? Can a cat act like a dog? Does it want to? Neither can a new creature in Christ act or want to act like the reprobate.

 

[Dave L]

I don't agree. But that's not the point. You keep ignoring the fact that belief precedes salvation. You don't become saved in order to believe. You believed and then God saved you.

Belief is the awareness salvation. You cannot believe in something you are not aware of.

 

[HatGuy]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Why? Can a cat act like a dog? Does it want to? Neither can a new creature in Christ act or want to act like the reprobate.

That's besides the point. Not wanting to act like the reprobate is different to loving perfectly. The reality is even new creatures in Christ do not love perfectly. Nor are they perfect in joy, or in kindness, etc. Unless, you believe new creatures in Christ do act in love perfectly? In which case, you share more affinity with Arminian holiness Christians than the Reformed (ironically enough ).

 

[Dave L]

That's besides the point. Not wanting to act like the reprobate is different to loving perfectly. The reality is even new creatures in Christ do not love perfectly. Nor are they perfect in joy, or in kindness, etc. Unless, you believe new creatures in Christ do act in love perfectly? In which case, you share more affinity with Arminian holiness Christians than the Reformed (ironically enough ).

It comes down to loving your enemy more than your own life if it comes down to you killing him to stop him from killing you.

 

[HatGuy]

It comes down to loving your enemy more than your own life if it comes down to you killing him to stop him from killing you.

? Come baaaack. No idea what you're on about here.