Where Arminianism Fails.

[Dave L]

Allowing the wicked to live and prosper seems awfully gracious to me. Especially since they are being wooed by The Spirit so fervently. I'm thinking of at least 1/2 dozen Bible verses to support this.

Since the wages of sin is death, shouldn't sinners die as soon as they have their first sinful thought, but for grace. Grace at every breath seems patently reasonable to me.

Grace turns the wicked into believers. We see no grace in their lives until then.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

It's not. God hates the wicked but uses them to nurture the elect. Greed drives business but the elect work for the greedy untainted etc.

Isn't teaching that God hates the wicked a somewhat selective, uber-literalism interpretation of Scripture. I'm fairly certain that for every single verse which intimates that God "hates" the wicked, there are quite a few that suggest the opposite.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So if someone is following Christ and then walks away, would you say that they were never saved or "appointed for salvation" in the first place?

The Spirit does draw people to God, but he doesn't force them to stay there.
God has chosen to given us the ability to choose. If he can choose, we are made in his image so it follows that we are able to choose also.

Correct like judas for example.

 

[Dave L]

Isn't teaching that God hates the wicked a somewhat selective, uber-literalism interpretation of Scripture. I'm fairly certain that for every single verse which intimates that God "hates" the wicked, there are quite a few that suggest the opposite.

“The LORD trieth the righteous: But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.” Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900)

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Grace turns the wicked into believers. We see no grace in their lives until then.

Are we talking about the same word here—the one usually defined as "unmerited favor?"

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Correct like judas for example.

You think Judas was once converted?

 

[Josheb]

With regards to faith being a work, it seems pretty clear that the Bible always CONTRASTS faith and works when it comes to justification. After all, salvation is by faith. Rom 4:5 is a good example for clarity.

"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness".

Yep.

There's no qualifications that say faith is a work, well, anywhere.

Yep. Completely agree, but 1) that's an argument from silence and 2) it fails to address the point made: the fact that 3) both scripturally and logically faith is accompanied by works manifestly testifying to the existence of that faith.

The Arminian who says a person - the sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate person - believes and is then saved still has to prove this is a faith that begets good works prior to being saved. You say you have faith? Great! Show me. And Christianity has long understood this by way of the confession of faith wherein the sinner declares "I believe!"

Arminians say it is the still-sinfully-enslaved-and-dead-unregenerate-non-believer who believes and the Calvinists say it is the formerly-unregenerate-now-regenerate believer who declares "I believe."

And in this way is avoided the problem of finding someone who knows and is known by God but isn't saved. In this way the problem of God being dependent upon sinful man is avoided. In this way the problem of the intermediate knowing-but-not-saved state is avoided.

The only time faith comes close to being a work is John 6:29, as already mentioned, where it seems God does the work, and James 2 where faith is said to be proved by works. (Works complement faith, but in terms of justification, they contrast.) But not even James 2 classifies faith as a work.

Yes, and I addressed that point and have yet to receive a cogent response.


Whether we continue to split hairs over the faith works contrast or not, the facts in evidence remain:

1) Non-believers are by definition not believers but Arminian soteriology says the non-believer believes freely from his/her will because God has liberated that person to do so prior to regeneration but there is no such text in the Bible but there is plenty of the opposite making the silence not a place upon which to base doctrine.

2) Arminian soteriology makes God and His plan dependent upon the unrepentant sinfully dead and enslaved unregenerate.

3) Arminian soteriology logically creates a middle state of knowing God without salvation that is nowhere mentioned in scripture and nowhere observable in reality.

4) The above three conditions occur in spite of the fact that Arminius himself was an ardent believer of what we now call total depravity. He argued for some kind of event in which God freed the sinner to repent and believe and have faith and act upon that faith/belief that is nowhere found mentioned in the Bible. This moment of prevenient grace is entirely hypothetical based solely on an eisegetically inferential reading of scripture that ignores some of the most blunt statements found therein, such as Romans 8:6 and 1 Cor. 2:14.

5) Attempts to discuss the above four conditions invariably reveals the eisegetic and inferential nature of Arminianism. Arminians proof-text scripture, ignore the contexts (local and global), and take scriptures written by the regenerate to the regenerate about the regenerate and attempt to apply them to the unregenerate non-believer. When this is pointed out then red herrings, straw men, and ad hominem ensue.​

These five failings in Arminianism have been demonstrated by those defending Arminianism in this very op. If I add,

6) Arminians require a non-believer's belief that is not operationalized, and requires no behavioral manifestation like acknowledgement, professing, or confession...​

...to the list that isn't making Arminianism look better, but worse, and the moment the need for confession is acknowledged then the Arminian soteriology becomes a salvation by works.


Can you address these concerns? Or do you maybe want to acknowledge there's actually some substance to the complaint over the failings of Arminianism?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You think Judas was once converted?

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.

John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.


John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Josheb]

BEGETS works is not the same as actually being a work.

Yes, and the salient point it there is no faith recognized as soteriological efficacious that is absent works. You've been arguing for a distinction between faith and work and thereby implicitly arguing for "faith begets works."

That's a problem for the Arminian soteriology.

 

[Josheb]

So says you.

The snotty comments about the posters observably continues. Noted as such and ignored accordingly.

I haven't used any of these things. I've shown clear scripture that proves belief precedes salvation.

You have in fact treated scripture eisegetically. All you have shown is that you can make scripture say faith precedes salvation. Every verse used was about people who already believed in God; verses that have no bearing on the modern atheist's conversion. The concerns of this op, now summarized in the five or six points in Post#469, have not been addressed and resolved.

 

[Josheb]

It doesn't say that. You are moving the goalposts.

And attempting to drag you off your op.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

“The LORD trieth the righteous: But the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.” Psalm 11:5 (KJV 1900)

Do you really think I've never read that verse? We could have a match of proof texting and consulting of the original languages, but the Bible was written for the common man which is why, I believe, that this problem is solved by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, however "contradictory" or paradoxical it may appear. "God is love." He is not merely the Source of all love; His very essence is synonymous with it (I say, as I virtually remove my shoes before the Holy ground upon which I now tread). He does not indulge malice. He administers vengeance and indignation with self-control/temperance (naturally). He acknowledges those who hate Him as His enemies. But never does he stoop to the cheapened, modern definition of the word "hate."

 

[Dave L]

Do you really think I've never read that verse? We could have a match of proof texting and consulting of the original languages, but the Bible was written for the common man which is why, I believe, that this problem is solved by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, however "contradictory" or paradoxical it may appear. "God is love." He is not merely the Source of all love; His very essence is synonymous with it (I say, as I virtually remove my shoes before the Holy ground upon which I now tread). He does not indulge malice. He administers vengeance and indignation with self-control/temperance (naturally). He acknowledges those who hate Him as His enemies. But never does he stoop to the cheapened, modern definition of the word "hate."

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)

 

[-57]

Often it is condemning them... but Paul is specifically calling out the good that an unsaved person does and why; "When Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law..."

Do you have an example?

 

[Elisha's Bear]

He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus.

Not helpful at all. I can't believe the way the character of God is maligned in some of these discussions.
He was created in the image of God like every other man and for the purpose of glorifying Him. It was his choice to be a son of perdition.
Providence is so widely misunderstood.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900)

Are we really going to do this? Are you actually suggesting that anger and malice are one and the same?

 

[Dave L]

Are we really going to do this? Are you actually suggesting that anger and malice are one and the same?

What does Paul say?

 

[Elisha's Bear]

What does Paul say?

Lots of really great stuff, as do other Bible writers but I have noticed that the baton always gets passed to the Great Apostle when the theological debate-going gets tough. And the warning from another apostle about misunderstanding the work of his pen is not lost on me, I assure you.
Grace (very expensive—not cheap) is to me largely a matter of religious liberty—a hill upon which I am well-prepared to die.
You may fire when ready, Sir.

 

[Dave L]

Lots of really great stuff, as do other Bible writers but I have noticed that the baton always gets passed to the Great Apostle when the theological debate-going gets tough. And the warning from another apostle about misunderstanding the work of his pen is not lost on me, I assure you.
Grace (very expensive—not cheap) is to me largely a matter of religious liberty—a hill upon which I am well-prepared to die.
You may fire when ready, Sir.

But God withholds it from most. Many avenues to explore in proving it, but he certainly withholds grace from most.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

HE extravagantly generously gives grace to the humble.