Where Arminianism Fails.

[Shrewd Manager]

A pleasing fable, to be sure, but born of the weakest hermeneutic, as well.

Thanks. When I am weak I am strong. Even the foolishness of God is wiser than men. I give thanks that God has kept these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them unto babes. He who thinks he stands best beware lest he falls.

I like your handle, but durst not call thee 'baldy!' What do you think that episode's about, btw?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The saved nations.

ALL the nations, all the people, the sea becomes the earth, and is earth turned as clay under seal.
Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Thanks. When I am weak I am strong. Even the foolishness of God is wiser than men. I give thanks that God has kept these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them unto babes. He who thinks he stands best beware lest he falls.

Nice spin. I claim no extraordinary wisdom.

I like your handle, but durst not call thee 'baldy!' What do you think that episode's about, btw?

Alas, I don't have a novel answer on this. I'm afraid it's just a simple, but shocking object lesson. Matthew Henry embellishes (for lack of a better term) the event, as commentaries are won't to do, and gives Elisha perhaps a bit too much personal credit, I think. Elisha is believed to have possessed a much gentler spirit than his predecessor, likely due to the double portion of the Spirit granted him. The outburst of cursing upon the youth was almost certainly prompted by the Spirit entirely. Otherwise, Henry's account seems quite believable, almost to the letter. If you haven't seen it, I'd recommend it as worth a read.

2 Kings 2 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

 

[Tra Phull]

There was a thread about Elisha' s bears around here not too long ago

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nice spin. I claim no extraordinary wisdom.

Alas, I don't have a novel answer on this. I'm afraid it's just a simple, but shocking object lesson. Matthew Henry embellishes (for lack of a better term) the event, as commentaries are won't to do, and gives Elisha perhaps a bit too much personal credit, I think. Elisha is believed to have possessed a much gentler spirit than his predecessor, likely due to the double portion of the Spirit granted him. The outburst of cursing upon the youth was almost certainly prompted by the Spirit entirely. Otherwise, Henry's account seems quite believable, almost to the letter. If you haven't seen it, I'd recommend it as worth a read.

2 Kings 2 Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible

It's far more satisfying to threaten mockers with a good bear-mauling than eternal damnation imho.

This would be funny if it wasn't so tragic, from Matty Henry's golden pen:

God must be glorified as a righteous God, that hates sin, and will reckon for it, even in little children. Let the wicked wretched brood make our flesh tremble for fear of God. Let little children be afraid of speaking wicked words, for God notices what they say,. Let them not mock any for their defects in mind or body, but pity them rather; especially let them know that it is at their peril if they jeer God’s people or ministers, and scoff at any for well-doing. Let parents, that would have comfort in their children, train them up well, and do their utmost betimes to drive out the foolishness that is bound up in their hearts;

You can tell when these commentators have no clue as to the meaning of a passage because they launch into vacuous preachy rants. But why the 2 she-bears? Why 42 children? Come on. Anyway, off-topic, so enough said.

 

[HatGuy]

God trumps Satan

But unfortunately if most of the world goes to hell because God chose to pass over them, it looks like Satan won - even if he goes to the Lake of Fire, he achieved his objective.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It doesn't matter if they all became believers at the same time....each individual had different ups and downs in their lives.

But, in a sense all people become believers when they are regenerated. The path to regeneration is different for everyone.

True. The circumstances that bring us to the final Decision point to repent and call on God for salvation in FAITH (that HE Gives) are very different for different folks.

 

[Mozex]

In my opinion one can not choose to believe. It is written that God GIVES faith to the ones He loves. It is also written that faith is a gift from God. One can not choose to have faith, you can choose to rebuke the faith, thats a different story. But to choose to believe is not biblical at all. God gives faith.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But unfortunately if most of the world goes to hell because God chose to pass over them, it looks like Satan won - even if he goes to the Lake of Fire, he achieved his objective.

If damnation is the omega then God loses. Fortunately the whole world is guaranteed the total victory of Christ. A Life sentence in the lake of fire.

 

[Barney2.0]

Before Calvin the Catholics would create inquisitions to punish those against their church. If that wasn't bad enough Luther and Calvin both would consent to violence to protect their beloved church doctrine. Hence the German proverb, "All mischief begins in the name of God."

Terrible thing! I would be suspicious of anyone consumed with hatred over your not going along with them on religious thinking!

The inquisitions no where near compare to what the Protestants ended up doing later on. Also the inquisitions were called because states who had the Catholic Church as the state Church didn’t want unrest in their countries, technically speaking it was to prevent something like the reformation which took millions of lives from happening. Contrary to popular myth the inquisitions weren’t inherently evil nor were the causes of it unjust. After all he inquisition is the reason the Wars of Religion never reached Spain and Portugal, had it been applied all over Europe the European Wars of Religion which claimed millions of lives wouldn’t have ever happened.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

In my opinion one can not choose to believe. It is written that God GIVES faith to the ones He loves. It is also written that faith is a gift from God. One can not choose to have faith, you can choose to rebuke the faith, thats a different story. But to choose to believe is not biblical at all. God gives faith.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28)

 

[Dave L]

ALL the nations, all the people, the sea becomes the earth, and is earth turned as clay under seal.
Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List

Who are hose in hell forever?
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28 (KJV 1900)

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46 (KJV 1900)

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2 (KJV 1900)

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” John 5:29 (KJV 1900)

“And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.” Acts 24:15 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

In my little mind, to sustain this position the Bible would have to look like the redacted Mueller Report.

God loves me because love is What He Is. That's why He made me in His image and "so loved the world (everyone, right?), that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever (free will choice, right?) believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

For the record: I think the missing link might be here:
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:3)


This just sounds weird to me. Save me as much as if--and just like that, my brain shuts down. (My brain has a Bible-shaped, sized, and colored filter that just can't understand some stuff.)

Absolutely no argument there. Hallelujah, Amen!

This just turns 1 John 4:19 around backwards.

"We love Him because He first loved us."

So He gives me a lovable nature so that He is then able to love me?

"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Hey, if this is about glory and I'm just not getting the other stuff, you're preaching to the choir.

But I'm still reeling from the "God hates sinners = wrath or mercy" equation.

People cheat God out of his glory in saving sinners when they claim they are not so sinful by having free will. Free will is something the saved have, not something those bound by sin have.

 

[HatGuy]

People cheat God out of his glory in saving sinners when they claim they are not so sinful by having free will. Free will is something the saved have, not something those bound by sin have.

No one can cheat God out of his glory, that is impossible.

 

[Dave L]

No one can cheat God out of his glory, that is impossible.

If you take credit for his work, you can.
“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.” Acts 12:23 (KJV 1900)

 

[Hazelelponi]

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:17, Joel 2:28)

And that happened, but all flesh is another way of saying all the faithful and what that entails under the New Covenant - a Spirit upon not just kings or prophets as it was prior to the Messianic age under the Old Covenant, but upon all the faithful. Your sons and daughters, old men and young, all the people of the faith and not just some or a few, of the faithful.

We live, in the New Covenant age, in a time where the Holy Spirit is on all the faithful in a way it never was under the Old Covenant.. and are exceedingly blessed for it as we have a new restored relationship with God they only dreamed of..

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28 (KJV 1900)

Yes He can, but will He? Read on:
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. (10:29-31)

Translation: God loves you, He's not going to crush you like a bug.

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Matthew 25:46 (KJV 1900)

Who are they? Have you ever not taken in a stranger, or visited someone in prison or hospital?

And punishment is kolasis - correction.
Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

Correction has a telos, it is finite by nature. It continues until the subject is corrected.

“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2 (KJV 1900)

Contempt or a bbq-grill. Which is it?

Think there's some idiom and metaphor happening here.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” John 5:29 (KJV 1900)

The word is krisis meaning 'judgment' not 'damnation'.
Strong's Greek: 2920. κρίσις (krisis) -- a decision, judgment

“And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.” Acts 24:15 (KJV 1900)

True. God's justice saves. I'll show you the project plan:

The Plan of God:
who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:4)

When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

The Application (short-form)
Stage 1: The Covenant
"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18)

Stage 2: The Confirmation
All the nations You have made will come and bow before You, O Lord, and they will glorify Your name. (Ps 86:9)

From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come to worship before Me," says the LORD. (Is 66:23)

Stage 3: the Seal
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn 12:32)

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

Stage 34: the Reiteration
"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:4)

Stage 5: the Consummation
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2)

Don't you love it when a plan comes together?

 

[HatGuy]

If you take credit for his work, you can.
“And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.” Acts 12:23 (KJV 1900)

So Arminians should be struck dead?

 

[Dave L]

So Arminians should be struck dead?

I was a teenage, arminian dispensationalist pentecostal but God led me out of these.

 

[HatGuy]

I was a teenage, arminian dispensationalist pentecostal but God led me out of these.

Haha, I guess being a teenage was the worst of that list . Thank the Lord that's done!!

Fair enough. I was a teenage Pentecostal that became a Calvinist that then became a whatever I am now (some sort of pseudo Lutheran charismatic). Our journeys are interesting aren't they?