Where Arminianism Fails.

[Dave L]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (Jn 6:44)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn 12:32)

Living water cascading down, can you feel it?

Draw all that the Father had given him...............

 

[renniks]

So think! Something very specific is asked of you. Proof-texting won't resolve the failure. Eisegesis won't solve the failure. Ad hominem, goal post moving, onus shifting, red herrings, straw men and tu quoques will not resolve these failures. You just tried to prove faith isn't work and failed. You failed because you quoted a passage about the law of sin and not the law of the Spirit by which we are made free of the law of sin so we can, will, and do believe.

So says you. I haven't used any of these things. I've shown clear scripture that proves belief precedes salvation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Draw all that the Father had given him...............

ALL...

But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; (Lk 2:10)

"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18)

...means all.

 

[Dave L]

ALL...

But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; (Lk 2:10)

"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18)

...means all.

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” Revelation 20:7–10 (KJV 1900)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Dave, my friend. We're back to Rev 20:9, the nations consumed by fire, thence to 21:24 to emerge repentant and on to 22:2 healed by the leaves of the tree of life. The consummation of the Adamic covenant, the angelic gospel and the work of the cross.

Or does God drop the ball?

 

[Dave L]

Dave, my friend. We're back to Rev 20:9, the nations consumed by fire, thence to 21:24 to emerge repentant and on to 22:2 healed by the leaves of the tree of life. The consummation of the Adamic covenant, the angelic gospel and the work of the cross.

Or does God drop the ball?

It doesn't say that. You are moving the goalposts.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It doesn't say that. You are moving the goalposts.

And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (20:9)

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (21:24)

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:2b)

Rejoice, for He delights in keeping His promises.

 

[Dave L]

And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (20:9)

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (21:24)

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:2b)

Rejoice, for He delights in keeping His promises.

The saved nations.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The saved nations.

So some weren't blessed?
Which ones weren't devoured by fire?
For some it was not glad tidings of great joy?

My God doesn't do things by halves, sir.

 

[Dave L]

So some weren't blessed?
Which ones weren't devoured by fire?
For some it was not glad tidings of great joy?

My God doesn't do things by halves, sir.

Apparently he does;
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Have you ever met a Calvinist who was a warm and loving guy?

Hopefully this is meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but wouldn't this qualify as genetic fallacy?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Apparently he does;
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

Is Jesus talking to unbelievers there?

Yes, sinners get the immersion in holy fire, it's painful correction and chastisement, but as Rev 21:24 and 22:2 show, they emerge repentant.

For where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

 

[Dave L]

Is Jesus talking to unbelievers there?

Yes, sinners get the immersion in holy fire, it's painful correction and chastisement, but as Rev 21:24 and 22:2 show, they emerge repentant.

For where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.

eternal fire = no change forever.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

eternal fire = no change forever.

The fire yes (because it's God's presence). But the stay is temporary.

"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. (Dan 7:9-10)

Divine fire purifies.

Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven." (Is 6:5-7)

If one hot coal from the brazier can cleanse sin, how much more full immersion in the fire?

 

[Elisha's Bear]

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

This always begs the question of the definition of belief, doesn't it? Isn't Christ the Source of every virtuous impulse? And wouldn't those who oppose God lose control were it not for the restraining influence of The Spirit? One thing I've learned about the Baptists since leaving their communion is that they seem to have a commendable grasp on the difference between common and saving grace (although, in a very real sense, grace is grace). I heard an amazing sermon on this by Charles Stanley many years ago. Sorry for rambling so.

 

[Dave L]

This always begs the question of the definition of belief, doesn't it? Isn't Christ the Source of every virtuous impulse? And wouldn't those who oppose God lose control were it not for the restraining influence of The Spirit? One thing I've learned about the Baptists since leaving their communion is that they seem to have a commendable grasp on the difference between common and saving grace (although, in a very real sense, grace is grace). I heard an amazing sermon on this by Charles Stanley many years ago. Sorry for rambling so.

Interesting. But I don't think common grace is biblical. God preserves the wicked for the sake of the church. The earth is too much for believers to handle in their small number. But when God finishes, the reprobate perish and the believers enter the new heavens and earth.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

The fire yes (because it's God's presence). But the stay is temporary.

"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. (Dan 7:9-10)

Divine fire purifies.

Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven." (Is 6:5-7)

If one hot coal from the brazier can cleanse sin, how much more full immersion in the fire?

A pleasing fable, to be sure, but born of the weakest hermeneutic, as well.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

Interesting. But I don't think common grace is biblical. God preserves the wicked for the sake of the church. The earth is too much for believers to handle in their small number. But when God finishes, the reprobate perish and the believers enter the new heavens and earth.

Allowing the wicked to live and prosper seems awfully gracious to me. Especially since they are being wooed by The Spirit so fervently. I'm thinking of at least 1/2 dozen Bible verses to support this.

Since the wages of sin is death, shouldn't sinners die as soon as they have their first sinful thought, but for grace? Grace at every breath seems patently reasonable to me.

 

[Dave L]

Allowing the wicked to live and prosper seems awfully gracious to me. Especially since they are being wooed by The Spirit so fervently. I'm thinking of at least 1/2 dozen Bible verses to support this.

Since the wages of sin is death, shouldn't sinners die as soon as they have their first sinful thought, but for grace. Grace at every breath seems patently reasonable to me.

It's not. God hates the wicked but uses them to nurture the elect. Greed drives business but the elect work for the greedy untainted etc.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

I don't think grace can be overstated.