When will Elijah the prophet appear in the world?

[101c]

Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.
responding only to the OP.
When will Elijah the prophet appear in the world?
he have already come. Matthew 17:10 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?. 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist”.

lets put something out here. John the Baptist, and Jesus the Christ in my opinion from what is revealed, are the two witness of Revelation chapter11.

when is "The great and terrible day of the lord"?.
the judgment on sin in the world. which was paid for on the cross.

We know from Malachi 4:5-6:
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse

answer in scripture. again John the Baptist, Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord”.


The next question would be:
How long before the day of the lord does Elijah come to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the heart of the fathers to the children?

as long as John was preaching and baptizing.

When John the baptist came in the power and spirit of Elijah he came clearing a path for the arrival of messiah(Jesus)
YES, The LORD GOD Himself in diversity, meaning human form. supportive scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold,
your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
YES, GOD in Diversity.

When the last day Elijah comes he will clear a path for the arrival of "the day of the lord" in a time of judgement. YES see above


4. The final Elijah should appear with a 40 day call to repentance before the judgement and then go into the wilderness just as most all of Gods servants do as even Jesus was 40 days in the wilderness before his beginning of his ministry

Matthew 3:1 " In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan. 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins”.

The question is what sign will bring forth the final Elijah?

Perhaps the sign of the woman clothed with the sun and moon under her feet of Ocotber 6 2013 will be the sign that brings forth the final Elijah with a 40 day call to repentance before the great and terrible day of the lord:

No. the woman clothed with the sun in revelation 12 is the church in the wilderness "Israel.".


The next thing we need to look at is the misconception that the tribulation period

was not John already in tribulation when he wrote revelation. Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ”.

so the tribulation have been started.

be blessed.

 

[Bible2]

101c said in post 101:

No. the woman clothed with the sun in revelation 12 is the church in the wilderness "Israel.".

That's right.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

101c said in post 101:

was not John already in tribulation when he wrote revelation. Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ”.

"The" tribulation in Revelation 1:9 (in the original Greek) is the general tribulation which the church has experienced from its beginning (Acts 14:22, John 16:33). There's also the never-fulfilled, unprecedented tribulation (Matthew 24:21-22) of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which the church will experience in our future, preceding Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, the various trials individual Christians undergo, including currently, can be referred to as plural "tribulations" (Romans 5:3, Ephesians 3:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:4).

 

[Jon Anon]

The woman clothed with the sun is Eve and she brings forth the man-child Adam as they were both promised to subdue the earth and have domininion over every moving thing on earth so if you move Adam and Eve will have dominion over you as they are firstborn and get the firstborn blessing
Gen 1:28:
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Do we think God could not see that Adam and Eve would mess up the plan and Jesus would have to come fix it before the completion of the plan......Of course God knew what would happen and Adam and Eve will still have dominion over the earth in the end because they are firstborn.

Adam and Eve came into the world on the 6th day and in the end each day representing a thousand will appear in the 6000th year as the 2 witnesses in the bodies of 2 males as there is no need for Eve to reproduce because the physical kingdom has already came about and now it is time to build the spiritual kingdom and re-unite the 10 lost tribes with the 2 tribes of Judah and benjamin.

Eve comes in the office of Elijah but will also do the office of Joshua the office of Aaron and such
Adam will come and do the office of Enoch and Moses and Zerubabel and such

When the sign of Rev 12 happens this is when Eve will appear in the body of a male and will begin a 40 day call to repentance and explain Adam is going to have dominion on earth(bring forth the man-child) before she goes into the wilderness for 1260 days.

Satan will try to overcome Eve again but this time will not be able to so he will go after the "REMNANT" of her seed.....her children

If Elijah/Eve comes this year it will be October 6 2013:


Revelation 12 sign:
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

[coraline]

What does that have to do with Jesus saying that John the Baptist was Elijah?

Why ignore Jesus' words & make up another story?

And how does that edify the body of Christ today?

 

[101c]

GINOLJC Bible2

I have been reading over the scriptures references you gave, thanks.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel).
Romans 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
good one.

Ephesians 2:12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

I'm not sure about this one, as to the woman in revelation 12. here's my reasoning. the Gentiles came into the church, "Christ Jesus", that he founded. the Church at Zion. for this church is Christ, supportive scripture, Isaiah 8:13 "Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem". so Christ, not Israel, but even Israel is included in the church, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".
again, this is the church at Zion, for Christ is the seed out of the wilderness church, which built his own church, supportive scripture, Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
I understand where you're coming form. but Christ was in the church in the wilderness. (see Acts 7:38). and he establish a new church under a new covenant. and Revelation 21:9,12, 1Peter 2:9-10 again the new Jerusalem.

She's clothed with the sun.
yes, she knew of righteousness but stumble at the Law, (moon) at her feet. supportive scripture, Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". see, they stumble at the Law to make themselves righteousness, for they never kept the Law. they walked in ignorance (which is wilderness). for as the sun is superior in brightness to the moon in nature, so also is the Son, is superior to the Law in Grace, and mercy. for with the law there was no mercy, but with Grace there is mercy. for the law was a guide, until the coming of the messiah. that's why the moon was at the woman feet, supportive scripture, Psalms 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path". a lamp give light. so the sun, representative, or symbolic of the Son, is greater in light, just as the natural sun, is greater in light that the natural moon. so is Grace to the Law.

as to the, The crown of 12 stars on her head. stars in the bible represent religious leaders, be ye good or bad, as angels who carry a message, either of God, or Satan. here, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but consider this. if they are the 12 apostle, question. there was not apostle in Israel until Christ started his church, which was after his birth.

she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years.
what's the meaning a church in the wilderness?. a void of KNOWLEDGE, the TRUTH. wilderness means void of truth, because nothing is in a wilderness. so for 3.5 years of Christ Jesus ministry, they learned the truth. and the example was set. they was learned of God himself with with knowledge, and understanding. remember Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge,(void of truth). 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". where there is a lack of knowledge and understanding there is a need for the Pastor. Jesus is God's pastor to the world. this is the PASTORAL GIFT, not an office held by some man, or woman, but the gift to the church, (see 1 Corinthians 12:8 which is the Pastoral gift). this is why we have the book of acts. apostle sent forth to establish and help growing churching. a good example of this is found in Acts 16:9 "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us". this was a church struggling, in the wilderness, a lack of knowledge, and understanding. this is nothing new, many was correct in the proper way, and even in baptism. for some only knew of John baptism, and haven't even heard of the Holy Ghost. see the wilderness, (void of understanding). they needed correct instruction, doctrine to stand on. read all of the chapter in acts. and a side note, this church in Thyatira was headed by a woman on the outskirt of the town, down by the river side.

this is why the Holy Ghost said in Acts 13:2 "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them".

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God.
this is the so called, missing years, of Jesus, our Lord youth. these years are not missing. at the throne of God is symbolic of coming to God for wisdom and understanding. lets see Jesus suppose missing years. supportive scripture, Isaiah 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back". Jesus the CHRIST, LEARNED at the throne, or from GOD, and not men. yes, our Lord grew in status and in wisdom. Luke 2:39 "And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth. 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

this is what Christians do edify for one another, that one in Roman was a good eye opener, again thanks

be blessed.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"​

 

[coraline]

Why write a book instead of answering the original question?

Didn't Jesus answer the question, or do you hear what He said?

 

[ptomwebster]

When will Elijah the prophet appear in the world?

What are you expecting to see? Why would you think he is not already here?

 

[Jon Anon]

What are you expecting to see? Why would you think he is not already here?

I am expecting to see someone stand up and say "REPENT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS COMING IN 40 Days!" ...nothing less than that.

 

[Bible2]

Jon Anon said in post 103:

Adam and Eve came into the world on the 6th day and in the end each day representing a thousand will appear in the 6000th year as the 2 witnesses in the bodies of 2 males as there is no need for Eve to reproduce because the physical kingdom has already came about and now it is time to build the spiritual kingdom and re-unite the 10 lost tribes with the 2 tribes of Judah and benjamin.

Regarding "the 10 lost tribes", note that Jews today include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history. For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it had first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes had left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. That's why later, the Jews living in the first century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a first century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know that they're Jews, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles, because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity, over the past 2,700 years their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11), or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children, or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they're Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some non-believing, genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the elect, non-believing, genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all elect, genetic Israelites will eventually be saved, they're only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 104:

What does that have to do with Jesus saying that John the Baptist was Elijah?

Matthew 17:10-13 can be understood as referring to two different comings of Elijah, the first being John the Baptist's coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17, Matthew 17:12-13), and the 2nd being a still-future physical coming-back of Elijah himself, when he will restore all things (Matthew 17:11), in the sense of restoring all true doctrine, i.e. all true interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16), to the church. This still-future, physical coming-back of Elijah himself could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 11:3-12).

In Revelation 11:3-12, the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

 

[coraline]

No, Jesus said to His disciples that "Elijah" had come.
There is no dual literal fulfillment, That is dispensensationalism. A so called "prophetess" in the Church made that ideology up in the late 1800's. With only a cursory reading of the Bible & good preachers- one can see it is a false prophecy.

There is no consensus exactly on the interpretation of the symbolic reference of the "Two Witnesses"

But I have settled on this one:

The "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days. Here are seven reasons why I believe this:

1. God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20. In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels"). Compare Rev. 15:6 and Rev. 19:8,14; and compare Rev. 21:9 and Rev. 22:8,9.

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

2. Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

This symbol was taken from Jer. 5:14:

"...Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it will consume them."


​

The prophetic words of the Church consumed the people in the Last Days, just as the prophetic words of Jeremiah consumed the people in his day.

Utterance and wisdom was "given" to believers that none of their enemies were able to resist or refute. (Matt. 10:19-20; Mk. 13:11; Lk. 21:15)

3. No one could harm the two witnesses. (Rev. 11:5) In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

4. The two witnesses were the "two olive trees and the two lampstands." (Rev. 11:4)

In Zech. 3-4, these symbols represented Joshua the priest and Zerubbabel the king. In the New Testament, the Church is God's "kingdom and priesthood." (I Peter 2:9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 20:6)

5. The beast made war with the two witnesses, conquered them and killed them. (Rev. 11:7)

This parallels Rev. 13:7-9, where the beast made war with the saints, conquered them and killed them.

6. The two prophets "stood on their feet" after "a breath of God" entered them, and they ascended into Heaven. In that very hour, their enemies became terrified and Jerusalem's downfall began. (Rev. 11:12-13)

This parallels Eze. 37, where the house of Israel was symbolized as "a valley of dry bones." The "breath of God" entered the slain of Israel and "they stood on their feet" and became a vast, conquering army. (Eze. 37:9-14)

The Church was persecuted and martyred, until God raised her up, when He came and paid back affliction to those Jews who were afflicting her. (I Thess. 2:14-16; 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:10-17)

7. The peoples "rejoiced" and made merry and gave presents to one another when the two prophets (witnesses) who had prophesied in sackcloth were killed, (Rev. 11:3,9-10) but the two prophets were later raised up. (Rev. 11:12)

This is a reiteration of Jesus' words concerning the Church:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy." (Jn. 16:20).


​

I believe the symbol of the "two witnesses" is based on Deut. 17:6; Matt. 18:16:

"On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death....."


​

The prophetic witness of the Church against fleshly Israel was faithful and true.

"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony [witness]. So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, and you will be hated by all on account of My name. Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)
​

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 111:

That is dispensensationalism.

Futurism per se should be distinguished from dispensationalism. For futurism per se is correct, because the tribulation and 2nd-coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. But dispensationalism is mistaken, because it tries to set up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

~

Also, dispensationalism is mistaken because it tries to teach a pre-tribulation rapture, whereas the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

coraline said in post 111:

The "two witnesses" were symbolic of the Church in the last days.

They aren't, just as the last days include our future. For while the last days began in the first century AD, with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2), and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17), the last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8), of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

coraline said in post 111:

God gave His "two witnesses" authority to lock up heaven so that there would be no rain while they prophesied, to turn the waters into blood and to smite the Land with every calamity. (Rev. 11:6)

These judgments against Israel were the judgments of the saints, apostles and prophets, in Rev. 18:20.

Rather, Revelation 18:20 refers to a future judgment by God himself against Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 18:10), in vengeance against the world's mistreatment of his apostles and prophets (Revelation 18:20).

Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire (not the two witnesses) will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

[Bible2]

coraline said in post 111:

In Rev. 16:2-12 these judgments were "poured out" on the wicked by means of the Church (in the symbol of the "seven angels").

The 7 angels in Revelation 16 will be literal, not the church, just as, for example, the angels in Hebrews 2:5,16, Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 are literal, not the church.

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

coraline said in post 111:

Through the faith and prayers of the Church, the destroying Mountain of Israel was violently cast into the sea, turning the waters into blood. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Rev. 8:8)

Jeremiah 51:25 refers to the empire of Babylon (Jeremiah 51:24) symbolically as a mountain, just as Revelation 17:9 refers to 7 empires (Revelation 17:10) symbolically as 7 mountains, and just as Daniel 2:35b refers to Christ's future, earthly empire (Daniel 2:44) symbolically as a mountain.

Matthew 21:21 can refer to a literal mountain, just as it referred to a literal fig tree (Matthew 21:19-21).

Regarding the 2nd trumpet, Revelation 8:8a could refer to the collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Revelation 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Revelation 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Revelation 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami caused by the volcano's collapse into the ocean. This tsunami could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

coraline said in post 111:

Fire came out of the mouth of the "two witnesses," and it devoured their enemies. (Rev. 11:5)

The fire in Revelation 11:5 can be literal fire which will literally kill people, like the literal fire in 2 Kings 1:10-14 literally killed people.

coraline said in post 111:

In Lk. 10:19, Jesus gave believers "authority" to tread upon serpents and scorpions and over all the power of the enemy, so that nothing could injure them.

If Luke 10:19 refers to physical protection, then Luke 10:19 could have applied to only the 70 (Luke 10:17). If Luke 10:19 applies to the entire church, then it means that the power of Satan can't hurt obedient believers spiritually. For Satan can hurt and even kill obedient believers physically (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Obedient believers overcome Satan spiritually even when they're physically killed by him (Revelation 12:11). They're more than conquerors spiritually even when they're physically led like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36-37). For death is a gain for obedient believers, as it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). So obedient believers need have no fear of death (Hebrews 2:15).

And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all the obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15). And they will all be resurrected into immortal physical bodies at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will all then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). And sometime after that, they will all live forever on a new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). So no matter what evil forces have done to obedient believers physically in the past, or are doing to them now, or will do to them in the future, such as during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), all obedient believers of all times will ultimately have the victory (1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 15:2).

coraline said in post 111:

. . . But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." (Lk. 21:12-20)

When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

~

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

 

[ptomwebster]

I am expecting to see someone stand up and say "REPENT THE DAY OF THE LORD IS COMING IN 40 Days!" ...nothing less than that.

Close but no cigar.

 

[Jon Anon]

Close but no cigar.

Well the good thing is we only have 40 days left to find out if Elijah will show up with a 40 day call to repentance as October 6 2013 and the Revelation 12 sign is only 40 days a way my friend. Will you believe the Elijah that shows up or will you just find him another crazy Harold Camping?

 

[Jon Anon]

Revelation 2:10:
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life

The tribulation is made up of 3 (42 month periods)
1. Jacobs trouble(destruction of america) (42 months)
2. First half of 7 year tribulation (42 months)
3. Last half of 7 year tribulation(42 months)
Total is 3780 days


1. Barley Harvest before 10 year tribulation
2. Wheat Harvest after 42 months of Jacobs trouble
3. Grape Harvest after completion of 10 year tribulation

The Barley Harvest and Rapture of the Saints

During the growing season of a farmers crop there is a first fruits growth that comes up in the field first. This crop is to be an offering to the Lord. It is to be tied with a red cord or a sheave to make it well known to all who are in the field that it is an offering to the Lord. We, as Christians and Messianic Jews, are the first fruits of the field of harvest. We are marked by the Holy Spirit as belonging to our Lord. Jesus was the first fruit and we will follow after Him.

These who believe are the barley grain. Barley grain is a soft seed. In days of old when they wanted to separate the grain from the chaff they would put the barley on a sheet holding the four corners and would raise the sheet to the wind. This process is called winnowing. It would easily separate the two and would give them the pure grain. This is what we are like. We are soft and pliable in the hands of the Lord to be corrected and re-aligned to His ways.

Wheat is a tougher grain than barley. Thousands of years ago, farmers used a tool called a "tribulum" to separate the chaff from their wheat. Today our word "tribulation" is derived from the name of that tool. It takes a tribulum to break the seed from the chaff. It goes through a breaking process to become free and be what our Father, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, would have us to be sons.

We have a God who loves us so much that He sent His only Son, Jesus to come in the flesh and dwell among men, teach us the way, die for us as a perfect sacrifice with all the sins of the past, present and future upon Himself, and taking the stripes upon His back, shedding His precious blood, was buried, raised, and ascended into heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father and making intercession for us. He did it all for us! Just as the ancient farmers used a tribulum to separate the chaff from their wheat, God will use the 42 months of Jacobs trouble to separate the chaff from the lives of the Christians at this time.

The last harvest will be the grapes harvest that comes from the four corners of the field. The grapes have to be crushed to be made into "New Wine."

The Great Tribulation will bring this about. This symbolizes the people who accepted Christ during the second half of the 7 years, known as the Great Tribulation. That group of people will have to endure the most horrendous time on Earth ever.

It would surely in your best interest to come to know Jesus as Savior early rather than later. You can claim Him now:

Jesus, I thank You that You came to save us from our sins and redeem us back to the Father God that was lost when Adam sinned in the garden. Please forgive me of my sins and I choose to turn from them and I ask You to help me to sin no more. I invite You Jesus to be my Savior and Lord over all of my life. I invite the Holy Spirit to live in me and teach and guide me. Thank you Lord Jesus! Amen!
​

The 10 days between Feast of Rosh Hashanah and Feast of Atonemnt are known as the "DAYS OF AWE"

Those 10 days again will represent the 10 years of tribulation

So if those 10 days between feasts are simply rehearsal to the 10 years between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Then the true date of Rosh Hashanah will be the first day of destruction as it is called a day of judgement and a day of darkness(Day of the Lord)

What I am watching for is the arrival of Elijah as he is promised to show up "BEFORE" the day of the lord
Malachi 4:5 Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the lord.

The sign that I think brings the arrival of Elijah is the Revelation 12 sign....the woman clothed with the sun and moon at her feet.

If Elijah is to appear this year it will be October 6 2013 as that is when the sign of Revelation 12 happens this year.

 

[Bible2]

Jon Anon said in post 116:

What I am watching for is the arrival of Elijah as he is promised to show up "BEFORE" the day of the lord
Malachi 4:5 Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the lord.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[101c]

2 all GINOLJC

Have anyone stop to think that revelation 12 comes before revelation 11?. revelation 12 speaks of Christ birth, which is supported by Matthews chapter 2 account of his birth. and chapter 11 is an account of his, and John the Baptist ministries, who are the two witness.

in response to the OP. "The great and terrible day of the lord". is the judgment on sin in the world. Joel 2:11 "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?". is this the two witness before this day, John and our Lord Jesus the Christ?.

can this be substantiated?, yes, Joel 1:14 "Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, 15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come". NOTICE THE WORDS AT THE END OF THIS SCRIPTURE, "for the day of the LORD is at hand". the key words here is "at hand". Read your commentaries on this verse and see what kind of day this is referring to. and here is the revelation to "at hand". what did John and our Lord Jesus the Christ preach?. Listen, Matthew 3:1 " In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (there it is). and Jesus the Christ, Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (there it is again) "at hand".

so before the day of the Lord we have the two witness John and our lord Jesus the Christ telling us to repent before the DAY OF THE LORD. for that DAY is "AT HAND".

this terrible day is bared out in Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

vengeance, is terrible. look up the word. a day to the Lord is as a thousand years.

be blessed,

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"​

 

[Jon Anon]

2 all GINOLJC

Have anyone stop to think that revelation 12 comes before revelation 11?. revelation 12 speaks of Christ birth, which is supported by Matthews chapter 2 account of his birth. and chapter 11 is an account of his, and John the Baptist ministries, who are the two witness.

in response to the OP. "The great and terrible day of the lord". is the judgment on sin in the world. Joel 2:11 "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?". is this the two witness before this day, John and our Lord Jesus the Christ?.

can this be substantiated?, yes, Joel 1:14 "Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD, 15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come". NOTICE THE WORDS AT THE END OF THIS SCRIPTURE, "for the day of the LORD is at hand". the key words here is "at hand". Read your commentaries on this verse and see what kind of day this is referring to. and here is the revelation to "at hand". what did John and our Lord Jesus the Christ preach?. Listen, Matthew 3:1 " In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (there it is). and Jesus the Christ, Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". (there it is again) "at hand".

so before the day of the Lord we have the two witness John and our lord Jesus the Christ telling us to repent before the DAY OF THE LORD. for that DAY is "AT HAND".

this terrible day is bared out in Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

vengeance, is terrible. look up the word. a day to the Lord is as a thousand years.

be blessed,

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"​

Jesus and John are not the two witnesses as they never called fire down from the sky and they never layed in the street for 3 and half days and God never said "come up hither" in front of their enemines raising them up 3 and half days later.

 

[101c]

2 Jon Anon, GINOLJC

Jesus and John are not the two witnesses as they never called fire down from the sky and they never layed in the street for 3 and half days and God never said "come up hither" in front of their enemines raising them up 3 and half days later.

Revelation is symbolic, one must understand the meaning. Revelation 11:6 "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will". this is to tell us who their identities are. they will emulate these two old testament prophets, Moses and Elijah who did these two things.
so these two witness identity is set.

and to your response, "they never layed in the street for 3 and half days". here is it symbolic, one must understand, the meaning of days, and death. death can be physical as well as spiritual. answer, their bodies was dead to the world because of sin in the world. supportive scripture, Matthew 8:22 "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead". wait a minute, the dead bury the dead, how can the dead bury the dead when the dead is dead. answer, when one is spiritually dead to God. even though one may have a heart beat, alive physically, but yet dead to God. so Jesus and John was the only men, "alive" men on the earth at that time, because sin reign in the world. and because of the first man, ADAM sin, all died. listen, Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord". now Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness". see because of sin in the world, their bodies was DEAD TO IT. because they had the Spirit in them. so by John and Jesus having the spirit of God in them, (for they was born with the Spirit from birth), you don't bury "ALIVE" men, symbolic meaning.

now as for fire calling down from heaven, yes the identity is Elijah, and was not John the baptist coming in his (Elijah), spirit and power, scripture, Luke 1:13 "But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord".

now as to the other reference of fire in revelation 11, coming out of their mouth. its again symbolic. let the bible answer that. Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". now verse 5 of revelation, "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". there is the key word, in Jeremiah" devour them", and in revelation, " devoureth their enemies". fire, here is symbolic of God Word.

be blessed

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
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