When will Elijah the prophet appear in the world?

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 419:

Rev 19 is when the Beast, the false prophet, and the risen Kings of the earth attack heaven.

Actually, Revelation 19:19 is when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), his False Prophet, and the still-living (i.e. the not yet dead) kings of the earth will have gathered together on the earth to wage war against YHWH God himself.

Revelation 19:19 is best understood within the context of Revelation 16:

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

precepts said in post 419:

The saved are already risen, and are the witnesses to the wedding supper, which is Armaggedon!

Regarding "The saved are already risen, and are the witnesses to the wedding supper", the saved will indeed be already resurrected, and the obedient among them will enjoy the marriage supper. For the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never-fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6, "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 419:

The tribulation is the implementing of the mark and the image.

Regarding the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), it could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma, G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every cell phone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer generated image on each individual's cell phone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they write on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's cell phone at set times every day to be worshipped. And cell phones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's cell phone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect that individual's noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of that individual's exact location, and order the officers to arrest that individual for blasphemy and treason. The offending individual could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.

Colossal beheading structures could be built, by which twenty "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp, that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers, and web-enabled devices.

Also, immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed into shipping containers, which, once full, could be stacked like stones into a gigantic Pyramid of Death, which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the pyramid that will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is that he didn't, for Adam and Eve were created immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to saved humans through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23.) Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death (Proverbs 8:36b).

Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our gracious Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist, to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 419:

Samuel wore a mantle; A mantle isn't a robe.

Note that the original Hebrew word (meiyl, H4598) translated as "mantle" in 1 Samuel 28:14 can refer to a "robe" (1 Samuel 24:4,11; 1 Samuel 18:4; 2 Samuel 13:18, Ezekiel 26:16, Exodus 28:4,34, Exodus 39:23-26, Leviticus 8:7, Job 29:14).

precepts said in post 419:

Plus, the rapture is suppose to be those taken away before tribulation.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

precepts said in post 419:

Everyone in the 1st resurrection are survivors of the mark of Beast, and his image, tribulation.

Note that no resurrection would be needed for any survivors. Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the first resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the first resurrection will be the bodily resurrection of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

precepts said in post 419:

There's no rapture from their physical earth's grave.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, the resurrection of the church will be from the physical-earth grave. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

 

[Interplanner]

B2 wrote:
Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1,

It's fine to identify these events so long as you remember what Latourrette said: the original expectation was for all of this to have taken place right after the trauma of the Jewish War. Latourrette says this shows in the text and early Christian (Patristic) discussions of the text ever since. I re-posted KL's paragraph in a thread here.

Now that that has come and gone, the NT and the Rev are not a prognostication tool for all time. It's completely up to the Father how it will end.

 

[precepts]

Originally posted by precepts;
In fact, Rev 19 happens after the completion of the seals, trumps, and vials.

That's right.

For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14.

HOW CAN REV'S TRUMPS AND VIALS WHICH YOU CALL THE TRIBULATION HAPPEN AFTER THE GREAT MULTITUDE, THE 144,000, AND THOSE WHO ARE FOUND UNDER THE ALTAR ARE SEEN IN REV 5-7? YOU CLAIMED THEY ARE RAPTURED AFTER THE TRIBULATIONS IN REV 8-20. REV 8-20 (THE TRUMPS AND VIALS) HAPPENS AFTER THE RELEASING OF THE 7 SEALS WHEN THE RESURRECTED ARE SEEN IN HEAVEN.

*****

Originally posted by precepts;
In fact, Rev 19 happens after the completion of the seals, trumps, and vials.

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

THERE'S NO RETURN TO EARTH, ESPECIALLY WITH THOSE RESURRECTED IN REV 5-7, TO DO ANYTHING. YOU ADMITTED EARLIER THE 1ST RESURRECTED ARE RESURRECTED IN HEAVEN. WELL, REV 19 IS THE CONTINUATION OF THIS HEAVENLY SCENE. READ IT!

ALSO, You keep ignoring my points. I ask you earlier where's the 1st beast in Rev 13 when the 2nd beast in Rev 13:11 comes on the seen? Where's the 1st beast during that time?!

Originally posted by precepts;
The tribulation is the implementing of the mark and the image.

Regarding the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), it could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast)

That's not the point. The point is, the tribulation the 1st resurrected come out of, is the tribulation of the mark and the image of the beast. There's no tribulation mentioned having the vials and trumps plagues anywhere in scripture! You futurist and pre-tribers are making it up because you don't see the fulfillment of them in the past, so you assume it's future.

Originally posted by precepts;
Everyone in the 1st resurrection are survivors of the mark of the Beast and his image tribulation.

Note that no resurrection would be needed for any survivors.

YOUR CONTRADICTING YOURSELF: Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Originally posted by precepts;
Everyone in the 1st resurrection are survivors of the mark of the Beast and his image tribulation.

Note that no resurrection would be needed for any survivors.

YOUR CONTRADICTING YOURSELF AGAIN: Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the first resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the first resurrection will be the bodily resurrection of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Originally posted by precepts:

There's no rapture from their physical earth's grave.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, the resurrection of the church will be from the physical-earth grave. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus

HOW CAN THEY BE BROUGHT DOWN FROM HEAVEN IF THEY WERE BURIED ON THE EARTH. THERE'S NO EARTHLY GRAVE RESURRECTION. THESE ARE THE PERSONS IN REV 5-7 WHO APPEAR IN HEAVEN AFTER THE UNSEALING OF THE 5TH AND 6TH SEALS.

Originally posted by precepts:

What is the opening of the mouth?
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
How does a man called a god die like a man, and fall like one of the princes?

Originally Posted by Bible2:

Originally posted by precepts:

Dan 11:31 cannot be what's happening in Luke 21:20 because the 70wks prophecy, which is 490yrs long, begins 7yrs prior to Cyrus' conquest of Babylon in 539 bc.

Note that a later start date for the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is possible. For in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). And the first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17).

Scripture is of no private interpretation. You can't add scripture where you want to and ignore the facts. The fact is the abomination of desolatiion is the cutting off in the middle of the week of the covenant confirmation. If the middle of the week is the 1,260th yr, what does that mean? It means it was the old covenant being confirmed during it's 1,260th yr of existance. The next half of the week is the abomination of desolation that lasts 1,290 yrs to the consummation. That's the facts.

Originally Posted by Bible2:

Originally posted by precepts;

The abomination of desolation in Mat 24:15 can only refer to Dan 7's 4th beast kingdom with the 11th horn because that's the only place Rome is mentioned in all of Daniel's prophecy except for the image prophecy.

Note that there's no "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 7.

You're missing the point. You claim the NT abomination of desolation is about the antichrist of which I'm trying to show that there's only one abomination of desolation as to why there's no mention of an abomination of desolation in Dan 7. The abomination of desolation in Daniel is during the Greek occupation of Israel, Dan 8:11-12, 9:27, and 11:31. The only reason the NT verses can refer to a different abomination of desolation other than what Daniel has described is the continuation of Dan 7's 8th and 11th horns during the Roman occupation of Israel during the NT times. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. That's how Mat 24 is fulfilled. The 4th beast in Dan 7 is Rome, of which the 11th horn in Dan 7 is the false prophet. The abomination of desolation isn't placed in the temple by the antichrist (the 8th horn) but by the Greek lil horn in Dan 8:11-12 and Dan 11:31. Dan 9:27 confirms the desolation lasts until the consummation, 1,335 yrs later. The NT abominations of desolation is continuing the saga from a NT point of view, the destruction of the temple by the Beast, and Revelations account of Christ fulfilling the heavenly kingdom post the earthly tribulation, caused by these Roman Emperors/horns that also attacks the heavenly kingdom during the 11th horn's earthly reign.

Originally Posted by Bible2:

Note that nothing requires that the 490 years began in 532 BC, instead of sometime later.

SO HOW DID I COME UP WITH 532 BC?!

 

[Ezekiel 1]

OP, thanks for your interpretation. By now Elijah should be on Earth and on Nov 14-15 we should expect WW3 according to your view. time will tell is it so or not.

I'd like to ask you do you consider the Rapture in your theory, especially the rapture of manchild Revelation 12 that precedes the war in heaven, that precedes the cast down of the dragon on earth, that precedes the persecution of woman in the desert for 3.5 years. That precedes the dragon's war waged on the "rest of her offspring" Rev.12:17 (my best guess- those rest of her offspring are the Russian orthodox christians). That precedes the dragon standing on the sand of the beach waiting for the rising of the beast. This is a clear sequence of events given in Rev 12 alone.

I would talk more of its supernatural and extra-earth meaning, in terms of extraterrestrials involved, if I have time and strength to do that.

At this point I'd like to pinpoint the place of the rapture (of the manchild, in case there are more than one raptures) that it necessarily is before any and all these events. Not necessarily before the coming of Elijah (and Enoch), because they appear in Rev.11.

I ask the question to everyone who thinks out of the box and does not have prejudiced predetermined answers:

How did Elijah go to heaven? Why not our rapture to be in that way too?
Elijah went in a physical way using physical device called chariot of fire. Anyone to have seen a such? We would call it spaceship, since it flies above atmosphere. No horses? Fire? The word "cherub" does not encompass everything and does not eliminate the clear evidence the flesh and blood Elijah took a ride on a space capable vehicle.

Similar and more detailed is the description given by Ezekiel in cgapter 1 of his book. Why so many people miss it and jump to chapter 38? Hense my chosen name Ezekiel 1. Just read it! Don't say you know it. Read it again with having in mind what the prophet talks about in his language! He describes extraterrestrial technology used by the God's created creatures he called cherubs.

What are the wings of the angels? The wings of the birds serve well to fly in the atmosphere. But above the atmosphere they are useless. Is it to say the angels fly only in the atmosphere? No. The angels don't necessarily have wings. They are not depicted with wings on the tomb of Jesus, on Ascension, in the prison of Peter, etc. They are depicted as "men clothed in white" who speak for God's things. No wing whatsoever. They appear and disappear at will. How then we say: here are the angels who are spirits, or with wings? Instead, we should say: here are the other God's creatures with abilities greater than ours, who are God's messengers (= means "angels", Paul calls himself an angel). They most likely come from another world or planet. They are flesh and blood at least some of them. They are not "visions" because they perform pretty physical tasks as liberating Peter from the prison.

Let me stop here. Vaterman, thanks for the dating and I expect if it will be true. Because if true it means the rapture is nearby either. Rapture in spaceships of Ezekiel and Elijah. Rapture from the top of the roof, as Jesus spoke. Not as disappearing but as boarding space capable vehicle to transport the faithful to secure location chosen by God, with messengers=angels (extraterrestrials) created and sent by God. That doesn't limit the very large question who populates the Universe. I just give a start of that thought that hopefully the proficient Bible scholars in this forum will develop further. Thank you!

 

[Ezekiel 1]

P.S. I don't assume all ET are good angels.
With having 50 billion stars with likely planets in our own galaxy according to latest estimates (out of 400 bln stars assumed to have planets), with additional a hundred billion other GALAXIES (their number constantly increase, as well as the number of stars within each of them), the likelihood of other creatures is so great that cannot be ruled out. God's creativity cannot be restricted to one only planet in one only galaxy. The issue of how they travel so far is a physics and technology that I could talk about may be sometime later. However, here I want to mention the most likely ET that we know about at the moment, that qualify for being parts of the armies of the dragon and the beast. For the purpose of this forum and thread. Excuse me if somehow I overpass this thread. Indeed, new threads are needed. I don't mind to start one. But don't know your reaction, friends, on all that. If you will demonize all that flies and is not a bird or a plane, I'd rather restrict my participation to one-two posts.

And so, draconians are the most prominent evil aliens according to specialists in that area. They come originally from the star Alfa Draconis that is named by the Greek constellation of Draco. How did the Greek know? How did the Chinese and Indonesian know of the same star and creatures? I don't know.

The other evil ones are the robotic machines, called under various names. We had the movies Transformers, that spanned for decades as cartoon series int he Japanese produced films. We also have few but determined testimonies of insiders who speak of a ET race(s) based not on Carbon but on Silicon (rocks) and metal. You all have seen the Arnold movies Terminator. Well that might be the truth to some extend. In one radio show dedicated to that it was mentioned of highly advanced silicon based tech race, not necessarily with soul, rather without, that comes from galaxy M 51. To add to that, recently Gordon Duff of Veteranstoday published article of Sentient Oil at the bottom of the ocean that was recently activated by another ET race. He didn't name that race.

That is what we are told online. Sure it is not all about that. Sure there are evil ones who are here to make up the armies of the dragon and the beast when the time comes. Russian general just said the Russian space forces cannot handle alien hostile attack. These are things that happen before our eyes, if we are capable to fix them int he ocean of information. Medvedev said of aliens on Russian territory that he knows about (has a list). The world.universe we are living in, is polarized. The ratio is 2:1 in favor of those who serve God (revelation 12, 1/3 of stars follow satan). Still the good ones are more. Let choose their assistance wisely while we still have a time to do so. If we demonize the good ones, we lose that assistance, we don't want it in first place. How can God help us then if we reject the messengers (angels) sent to tell us the truth and give escape way? The escape way should come BEFORE the above development. If Elijah is indeed here (yet to be proved) then the Rapture is days away.

If this is a problem, I am ready to move these two posts into a new thread. But I don't have time and energy to discuss how everything is demonic, or to repeat 10 times Ezekiel 1, Ezekiel 1, without reasonable answer. I find the topic of OP quite interesting and quite close to that, especially in timing. November 15 is not that far. Secular sources have said comet Ison will crash somehow and will make a big solar flare or something like that. I don't know and remain waiting as all of you guys. Thanks for your attention!

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 424:

It's fine to identify these events so long as you remember what Latourrette said: the original expectation was for all of this to have taken place right after the trauma of the Jewish War.

Note that the timing referred to in Matthew 24:29-31 wasn't what was "originally expected", but was what Jesus himself taught about when his 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church will occur in relation to the never-fulfilled tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (cf. also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

For an example of how that tribulation has never been fulfilled, see post 406.

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 425:

HOW CAN REV'S TRUMPS AND VIALS WHICH YOU CALL THE TRIBULATION HAPPEN AFTER THE GREAT MULTITUDE, THE 144,000, AND THOSE WHO ARE FOUND UNDER THE ALTAR ARE SEEN IN REV 5-7?

Those under the altar in Revelation 5, and those of the great multitude in Revelation 7, could enter heaven by dying before the trumpets and vials, for the reasons given in the 3rd and 4th sections of post 417.

The 144,000 will still be on the earth at the time of Revelation 7, and also during Revelation chapters 8-9 (Revelation 9:4).

precepts said in post 425:

YOU CLAIMED THEY ARE RAPTURED AFTER THE TRIBULATIONS IN REV 8-20.

What has been said is that the entire church of all times will be raptured after the (never fulfilled) tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, for the reasons given in the last section of post 423.

precepts said in post 425:

REV 8-20 (THE TRUMPS AND VIALS) HAPPENS AFTER THE RELEASING OF THE 7 SEALS WHEN THE RESURRECTED ARE SEEN IN HEAVEN.

Note that nothing says or requires that those under the altar in Revelation 5, or those of the great multitude in Revelation 7, are resurrected before the trumpets and vials of Revelation chapters 8 to 16. For they won't be resurrected until the first resurrection, at Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21 (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), after the vials (the tribulation's final stage) in Revelation 16.

precepts said in post 425:

YOU ADMITTED EARLIER THE 1ST RESURRECTED ARE RESURRECTED IN HEAVEN.

Actually, that has never been said. For the 1st resurrection will occur on the earth, for the reasons given in the last section of post 423.

precepts said in post 425:

WELL, REV 19 IS THE CONTINUATION OF THIS HEAVENLY SCENE.

Revelation 19, like Zechariah 14, is about Jesus' return from heaven to the earth.

precepts said in post 425:

I ask you earlier where's the 1st beast in Rev 13 when the 2nd beast in Rev 13:11 comes on the seen?

Both beasts in Revelation 13 will be on the earth, and will do what's described there on the earth at that time, which will be a future time lasting a literal 3.5 years. They could first arise on the world stage some years before that time, and appear at first to be good.

"Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will (eventually) sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (at least one time) and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

--

A 2nd aspect of Revelation 13's first beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who's now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

precepts said in post 425:

I ask you earlier where's the 1st beast in Rev 13 when the 2nd beast in Rev 13:11 comes on the seen?

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

--

If a (secretly apostate) pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope, who they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new, "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

precepts said in post 425:

There's no tribulation mentioned having the vials and trumps plagues anywhere in scripture!

The seals, trumpets, and vials tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 is the same, never-fulfilled tribulation as Matthew 24, immediately after which Jesus' 2nd coming must occur (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

precepts said in post 425:

YOUR CONTRADICTING YOURSELF:

Note that referring to the future, bodily-resurrected church doesn't contradict that no resurrection will be needed for any church survivors of the future tribulation. For those in the church who survive (and who were obedient) will never die (euphemistically "sleep"), but will be instantly changed into immortal bodies right after the dead (and obedient) in the church are resurrected into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

precepts said in post 425:

HOW CAN THEY BE BROUGHT DOWN FROM HEAVEN IF THEY WERE BURIED ON THE EARTH.

Their souls will be brought down. Only their bodies were buried on the earth.

2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21,23 refer to dying and going to be in Jesus' physical presence in heaven (Acts 3:21). For they refer to going to be in the presence of Jesus in a way that living believers aren't.

precepts said in post 425:

THERE'S NO EARTHLY GRAVE RESURRECTION.

Actually, there is, for the future resurrection will be an earthly grave resurrection just as Jesus' resurrection was an earthly grave resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

precepts said in post 425:

How does a man called a god die like a man, and fall like one of the princes?

By being a mortal, merely-human "god" (Psalms 82:6-7).

 

[precepts]

The 144,000 will still be on the earth at the time of Revelation 7, and also during Revelation chapters 8-9 (Revelation 9:4).

That's impossible. Everything that happens in Rev 4-7 is in heaven.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

You are correct in saying some in the 1st resurrection died during some of the trumps and vials because the seals, trumps, and vials are visions of the past seen when the book is unsealed, but it also means all in the 1st resurrection are seen in heaven. The proof?

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This is Rev 4, God's throne being placed in heaven. "I beheld till the thrones where cast down" is the proof Armaggedon takes place in heaven. This is what I was trying to prove to you earlier in Rev's account of Christ possessing the kingdom. It's the heavenly kingdom! The 11th horn on this 4th beast is the false prophet. His being thrown into the lake of the fire is the beginning of the 1,000 yrs reign. All seen and taking place in heaven. Dan 7 is Rev 4-20.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This group of people is the 144,000, the great multitude, and those found under the altar, those in Rev 5-7.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

"The nations were angry" is the 6th seal, but this is also Dan 7's God and Christ possessing the kingdom, Rev 4-20. The Beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire is the end of Dan 7, and Rev 19 and 20's setting up of thrones. It's after Christ possesses the heavenly kingdom that the ark is seen in the heavenly temple.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Which all takes place in Dan 7, which takes place in heaven where God's throne is set. If this is after the beast is killed (vs 2-3), which begins the 1,000 yrs reign, then what's the wedding supper if not the slaughter of Gog and Magog after the 1,000 yrs reign when the bride appears? Gog is the "devil' the "Devil" uses to attack the heavenly temple post the 1,000yrs reign, the reason Dan 11 jumps from the Greek kings to Dan 12's 2nd resurrection. It's the greek lil horn that defiles the earthly temple courtyard during the setting up of the abomination of desolation in Dan 8:11 and Dan 11:31, and he's also the reason for John not measuring the heavenly temple's courtyard in Rev 11:2 because he defiles it after the 1,000 yrs reign and the 1,290th yr (Dan 12:11).

Originally posted by precepts:
I ask you earlier where's the 1st beast in Rev 13 when the 2nd beast in Rev 13:11 comes on the seen?

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. .............

That's not what I'm asking. Where is the 1st beast when the 2nd beast comes on the scene? Where is he when and why the 2nd beast has to make an image of him for the world to worship?

Originally posted by precepts:
HOW CAN THEY BE BROUGHT DOWN FROM HEAVEN IF THEY WERE BURIED ON THE EARTH?

Their souls will be brought down. Only their bodies were buried on the earth.

That makes no sense. Why then are any bodies risen if these come back without their resurrected bodies. It makes no sense! Their souls return with Christ and their bodies stay buried? If that's so, then there's no need for anyone to rise from the dead. It's becuase they're given their resurrected, uncorruptable bodies in heaven when they appear in heaven in the 1st resurrection. The 2nd heavenly resurrection of the white throne judgement is a heavenly resurrection of the heavenly earth, to be gathered by the 1st resurrected and the angels to the white throne judgment.

2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:21,23 refer to dying and going to be in Jesus' physical presence in heaven (Acts 3:21). For they refer to going to be in the presence of Jesus in a way that living believers aren't.

Christ himself said there's no life in the grave. You're misinterpreting the verses.

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

He wants to be absent from the body and present with God, not that being absent from the body is being present with God. This is what I was trying to explain earlier. When man dies, his breath alone returns to God. The proof is Peter's speech on Pentecost, "David's grave is still here with us," "and David is not ascended into the heavens," Acts 2:29,34.

Phl 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
--------------
Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

When Christ said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise" do you think it meant the same day Christ died on the cross? Death is what Christ called sleep when they told him Lazarus was dead. It will seem like the same day you closed your eyes because it's sleep until a resurrection.

Originally posted by precepts:
THERE'S NO EARTHLY GRAVE RESURRECTION.

Actually, there is, for the future resurrection will be an earthly grave resurrection just as Jesus' resurrection was an earthly grave resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

Why would you take my words out of context? THERE'S NO EARTHLY GRAVE RESURRECTION FOR THOSE WHO WHERE IN THE GRAVE POST CHRIST RESURRECTION. PAUL EXPLAINED THAT THEY WOULD BE RETURNING WITH CHRIST. NO EARTHLY GRAVE RESURRECTION!

Originally posted by precepts:
How does a man called a god die like a man, and fall like one of the princes?

By being a mortal, merely-human "god" (Psalms 82:6-7).

That's an oxymoron. A man called a god is a direct reference to the kings of the earth that practiced the "openning of the mouth," the resurrection of the dead, to attack the heavenly kingdom. They fall like one of the princes/angels when they are slain with the sword and imprisoned in the bottomless pit with Satan for the thousand yrs. These men become angels, like I explained earlier; therefore, they fall like angels. This is why it's written in scripture, Christ saying "ye are gods." We were made to transform into our incorruptable selfs, a practice some have learned true Satan's knowledge of the human anatomy.

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 430:

Everything that happens in Rev 4-7 is in heaven.

Actually, not everything. For while Revelation chapters 4-5 are in heaven, Revelation 5:13 includes reference to every creature on and under the earth. Also, Revelation 6 includes reference to events on the earth, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 420.

Also, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

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Also, while the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-14 will be in heaven by that time, note that the first part of Revelation 7 refers to what will occur on the earth, with the sealing of the 144,000, who will still be on the earth at that time, and also during Revelation chapters 8-9 (Revelation 9:4).

precepts said in post 430:

You are correct in saying some in the 1st resurrection died during some of the trumps and vials because the seals, trumps, and vials are visions of the past seen when the book is unsealed, but it also means all in the 1st resurrection are seen in heaven.

Regarding "the seals, trumps, and vials are visions of the past", note that they can't be visions of the past, because they have never been fulfilled. I.e. the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly fallen-angel) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on mankind. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the Prime Minister of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and an army of his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal, 7-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command the army of fallen angels that descended with him to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly fallen-angel) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist, either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of the 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, he will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 430:

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the church at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the church (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting his body into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the (never fulfilled) Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH God (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

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The books that will be opened in Daniel 7:10b could be records of all the actions of some people, by which they will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10), just as the books that will be opened some thousand years afterward in Revelation 20:12a will contain all the actions of other people, by which they will be judged (Revelation 20:12b).

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Daniel 7:11b could refer to the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, being cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20). In Daniel 7, the Antichrist is considered to be part of the 4th beast (Daniel 7:23-25).

precepts said in post 430:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus (as is sometimes claimed). Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

precepts said in post 430:

Where is the 1st beast when the 2nd beast comes on the scene?

If you mean the Antichrist, he could be in Las Vegas, or in Lebanon, or somewhere else in the world, when the 2nd beast first appears on the world stage. For he could be the billionaire owner of a huge, worldwide construction company.

Also, the Antichrist could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named "Hakim". The Antichrist's last name could be "Hakim", and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the first stage of his world takeover), and employ them as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

precepts said in post 430:

Where is he when and why the 2nd beast has to make an image of him for the world to worship?

Regarding why the image could be made, see post 422.

precepts said in post 430:

Why then are any bodies risen if these come back without their resurrected bodies.

Bodies are risen because only the souls of the obedient dead of the church (of all times) come back from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16).

precepts said in post 430:

Their souls return with Christ and their bodies stay buried?

No, their bodies get resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

precepts said in post 430:

Christ himself said there's no life in the grave.

What verse are you thinking of here? Also, see the first section of post 416.

precepts said in post 430:

The proof is Peter's speech on Pentecost, "David's grave is still here with us," "and David is not ascended into the heavens," Acts 2:29,34.

Acts 2:34 meant only that David's body hadn't ascended into heaven, but was still buried (Acts 2:29). Acts 2:34 wasn't contradicting the fact that David's soul had ascended into heaven with Jesus after Jesus' resurrection. Indeed, all the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

precepts said in post 430:

When Christ said to the thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise" do you think it meant the same day Christ died on the cross?

Yes, for Jesus' soul didn't go into hell when he died, but into heaven into the hands of God the Father (Luke 23:46). The same day he died, Jesus' soul went into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is up in the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-4), and which is where the tree of life is (Revelation 2:7), in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2), up in heaven (Hebrews 12:22).

 

[precepts]

Actually, not everything. For while Revelation chapters 4-5 are in heaven, Revelation 5:13 includes reference to every creature on and under the earth. Also, Revelation 6 includes reference to events on the earth, for the reasons given in the 2nd section of post 420.

Like I said before; the seals, trumps, and vials all happened before Rev 4-5. That's why they occur on the earth. The unsealing is just visions of what happened in the past when they were applied. The seals, trumps, and vials are the Egyptian exodus plagues; and the drying up of the Euphrates was for the fall of Babyon by Darius the Mede.

Also, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Reading comprehension, Dan 7 proves everything that happens in Rev from the setting of God's throne in heaven to the beast being thrown into the lake of fire is in heaven. Dan 7 verifies this. The point isn't when but where.



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Also, while the great multitude of Revelation 7:9-14 will be in heaven by that time, note that the first part of Revelation 7 refers to what will occur on the earth, with the sealing of the 144,000, who will still be on the earth at that time, and also during Revelation chapters 8-9 (Revelation 9:4).

God's throne is set in heaven in both Rev 4 and Dan 7:9. That's the beginning of the resurrection. The 144,000, thou numbered before being seen in heaven, is part of the 6th seal, which I told you is a vision. Everything else is God's throne set, the resurrected seen, then the armaggedon. All in heaven based on God's throne being set in heaven. That's why I provided the verses showing so. When the Beast is cast into the lake of fire, the audience is in front of God's throne, which was set in heaven from the beginning in Rev 4 and Dan 7:9.

Regarding "the seals, trumps, and vials are visions of the past", note that they can't be visions of the past, because they have never been fulfilled. I.e. the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) hasn't started yet.

All has been fulfilled because Christ's ascension into heaven is the end of the seals, trumps, and vials which begins the Armageddon. The Armageddon is after the seals, trumps, and vials, that you agreed to earlier. Dan 7 shows God's throne being set in heaven (based on Rev 4) and ends with the beast being thrown into the lake of fire. This happens after the seals, trumps, and vials.

Originally posted by precepts:
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the church at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the church (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting his body into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

That's exactly what's it referring to. The only problem is your timeline. The point is this scene is also the scene in Dan 7 and Rev 4.

So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the (never fulfilled) Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH God (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

You keep saying could, it does. This is why the NT speaks of the abomination of desolation as a person instead of what was done during the Greek occupation of Israel. The scriptural 8th Roman Emperor Flavius is who destroyed the temple in 70 ad., described by Rev 13. John's revelation is the continuing of Dan's and Mat 24's (Christ's) prophecy of the destruction of the temple.

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The books that will be opened in Daniel 7:10b could be records of all the actions of some people, by which they will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10), just as the books that will be opened some thousand years afterward in Revelation 20:12a will contain all the actions of other people, by which they will be judged (Revelation 20:12b).

The only book opened pre the 2nd resurrection is the book sealed with the seven seals. This is Rev 5, Christ taking the book out of the hand of God and reading it.

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Originally posted by precepts:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus (as is sometimes claimed).

Christ doesn't return at the 7th trump, it says he descends with the trump of and archangel.


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Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Rev 11:15 is Dan 7:13-14 and Rev 5:9-13. Christ recieving of the kingdoms is when he brought before God and his throne.

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

The only time Christ will be returning to earth after his ascension which is Dan 7 and Rev 4-5 is at the end of the world, the 3rd resurrection, the wheat and tares harvest into the barn (the new Shalem) or the lake of fire. There's no throne judgment in the wheat and tares harvest resurrection.


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Originally posted by precepts:
Where is the 1st beast when the 2nd beast comes on the scene?

If you mean the Antichrist, he could be in Las Vegas, or in Lebanon, or somewhere else in the world, when the 2nd beast first appears on the world stage. For he could be the billionaire owner of a huge, worldwide construction company.

The Beast is the scriptural 8th Roman Emperor Flaviius, and the false prophet was the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor Nerva who plucked up the Flavian dynasty that consisted of Flavius and his two sons. These


are the facts. It's Flavius(Titus) that destroyed the temple and city in 70ad. It's him that had the messianic prophecies that Josephus believed, and adopted the Beast's name Flavius post the temple destruction. There's too much evidence here for you to not see you flawed interpretation is contrary the Christ's Mat 24 prophecy, Dan, and Rev's all connected chronologucal prophecy. I think it's obvious you're preaching anti-christ doctrine, a carnal doctrine full of holes and gaps; of which, mine is not!

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 433:

The unsealing is just visions of what happened in the past when they were applied.

Actually, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

precepts said in post 433:

The Beast is the scriptural 8th Roman Emperor Flaviius, and the false prophet was the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor Nerva who plucked up the Flavian dynasty that consisted of Flavius and his two sons. These


are the facts. It's Flavius(Titus) that destroyed the temple and city in 70ad.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Titus didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Titus didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until after the time of Titus. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Titus' reign ended in 81 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

 

[precepts]

Originally posted by precepts:
The unsealing is just visions of what happened in the past when they were applied.

Actually, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are future because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b).

Your problem is reading comprehension. What was to happen thereafter was the entire vision. When Christ is brought before God's throne in Rev 5, it happens yrs after John's revelation. Revelation was written during the Roman civil war, historically called "The year of the four emperors." "Five are fallen and one is" refers to the yr the 5th Roman Emperor, Nero, died in 68 ad. So, the thereafter was what was to happen after 68 ad. In fact, Rev 5 happens the yr the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor dies in 98 ad. The reason the Beast is missing in Rev 13 when the false prophet makes his image to be worshipped, is because these were the 8th and 11th scriptural Roman Emperors (horns/kings). They attack the heavenly Shalem where God's throne is, and are thrown alive into the lake of fire. There's no gap between the beast kingdoms or the image in Daniel. Each beast kingdom represented one of the 5 fallen angels, the Beast and the 4 Euphrates angels. I already explained who the Lion with two wings were (Nebuchadnezzar with his two sons); the Ram with the two horns (Cyrus and Darius); the Goat with the great horn (Alexander the Great), the 4 horns that came up after (Alexander's 4 generals), and the little horn (Antiochus III the Great). The 4th beast is Rome. The beast with the 7 heads, 10 horns, and 10 crowns is Rome, evident by the nation that occupied Israel during the NT. The 10 crowns represent the first 10 Roman Emperors which is the continuation of Daniel's beast kngdom image and Mat 24's prophecy of the abomination of desolation that lasted until the "consummation," a 1,290 yrs later. This is the connection from Daniel prophecies to Mat 24 and Revelation.

And just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

I provided enough scriptures proving it has already happened based on the timeline from Daniel thru to Revelation. It's 1,290 yrs to the "consummmation," a fact you continue to ignore to further conclude Christ didn't know the time of his return as to why Mat 24 isn't carnally fulfilled. You then totally ignore Daniel's chronology and method for understand each and every of the 4 to 5 beast mentioned in Daniel, to extend Revelation to a 1980 yr prolonged prophecy eventhough I provided scripture where God himself says in Ezekiel chapter 12:

Eze 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
Eze 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.
Eze 12:24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Eze 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.

You claimed these verses apply only to those days, but God doesn't make changes like this and turn back to allowing 1,980 yrs gap between what he said in Mat 24 and Rev. That's just plain folly! There's no gap in God's prophecy. Stop ignoring the facts for opinions.

Originally posted by precepts:
The Beast is the scriptural 8th Roman Emperor Flaviius, and the false prophet was the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor Nerva who plucked up the Flavian dynasty that consisted of Flavius and his two sons. These


are the facts. It's Flavius(Titus) that destroyed the temple and city in 70ad.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

The facts can never be decieving. You're the one promoting antichrist doctrine by hiding the truth of written prophecy and ignoring the scriptural facts. It's the antichrist doctrine that has the world fooled; looking to the ends of the earth and supporting a nation that denies Christ in the flesh: promoting war and not peace, shutting up the word to the blind.

Titus didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18,

Titus was a man, the scriptural 8th Roman Emperor. He started the Flavian Dynasty with his two sons which were plucked up by the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor, Nerva. I already provided historical documentation of his oracle for being the antichrist and Ewish historian Josephus accepting the prophecy and adopting his name Flavius, which was a condition for becoming a Roman citizen. How can you say Titus didn't fulfill Rev 13 when I already provided all these facts? I even went as far as to ask you where was he when the 2nd beast made his image to be worshipped? I went as far as to say it proved they were men that ruled a nation that ruled the then entire world, but I guess it must of went way over your head. Titus is/was this scriptural 8th Roman Emperor that died and was made to be worshipped by the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor Nerva. That's why he's not on the scene during the 11th Roman Emperor's setting up of the antichrist's image. It's a historical documented fact of Roman Emperor's being worshipped as gods after their deaths; so, do I need to provide the link? Accept the facts!

Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Titus didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15).

All these verses are connected to Dan 7, God's throne being set in heaven, Rev 4. We've been thru this already. All the verses you've quoted is the Armageddon. Titus was the Beast out of the bottomless pit. Dan 11:31, for the zillionth time, is not the antichrist, and the antichrist is the 8th and not the Greek lil horn that causes the abomintion of desolation during the Greek occupation of Israel. Why do we have to keep going in circles? Why? Because you keep ignoring the facts. You can't build a house ignoring the plans! Mat 24:15 is the continuation of the desolation. Mat 24:15 is linking Dan 7 with Mat 24 and Rev 19. It's during the reign of the false prophet that Dan 7:11 is fulfilled, the beast given to the flame. This is how the 1st beast in Rev 13 is seen with the 2nd beast after the image is set up.

And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until after the time of Titus. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation].

If that was the case, then God himself could of plainly said who he was. God speaks in parables for this same reason, for the wise to understand, and so far you're not acting wise. "Five are fallen and one is, and one is to come and continue a short space;" that alone points to a particular time in Roman history of a quick succession of rulers which points to the historically recorded "Year of the Four Emperors" of which Titus was the historical 9th. Titus and his 2 sons, the Flavian Dynasty, were plucked up by the historical 12th; scriptural 11th Roman Emperor, Nerva; who began the historically documented Roman era of "The Five Good Emperors." We now have two historically documented Roman eras that followed each other, the "Year of the Four Emperors" and "The Five Good Emperors" reign. Does it sound in any way scripturally familiar to God's writings similiar to "for 4 things, no for 5" will so and so be destroyed? It should. Another interesting scriptural fact connected to Rome's history is the wearing of garments made of wool and linen. The Roman "toga" was made of wool and linen.

For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Titus' reign ended in 81 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Titus destroyed the temple which was documented by Josephus who accepted his messianic prophecies. Titus also ended the Julio-Augustine dynasty and began his own Flavian Dynasty with his two sons. They were plucked up by the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor who happened to be the last historically documented Roman Emperor to be roman by birth or blood, fulfilling why only 11 Roman Emperors (horns) are mentioned in Dan 7 and in Revelation. How many of these fulfilled prophecies do you deny?!

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 435:

It's 1,290 yrs to the "consummmation," a fact you continue to ignore to further conclude Christ didn't know the time of his return as to why Mat 24 isn't carnally fulfilled.

Regarding Christ not knowing the time of his return, before his resurrection, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32). But he did know that he will return "immediately after the tribulation" of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And he did know that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The reason that Jesus didn't know, before his resurrection, the date of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32), was because at his incarnation (John 1:1,14), he temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32), in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17), and to be tempted in every way that we're tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14; 1 Timothy 3:16). And after his physical resurrection into human immortality (Luke 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). So now he does know the date of his 2nd coming.

God, including Jesus, is also omnipresent, by his Spirit (Psalms 139:7-10, Matthew 28:20b). But Jesus (God the Word, God the Son) is now also at the same time in a human, physical body (Luke 24:39). It's in this body that Jesus ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9, Acts 3:21) and now sits at God the Father's right hand (Hebrews 10:12), and will return from heaven to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12). Jesus will remain in his physical human body forever, so he can serve as saved humans' high priest/mediator forever (Hebrews 7:24-25, Hebrews 2:16-18; 1 Timothy 2:5).

The only thing that Jesus couldn't have put aside before his resurrection, and still have remained God, would have been his divine, Spiritual uncreatedness (John 1:1-3), his from-everlasting-to-everlasting divine immortality (1 Timothy 6:16, Micah 5:2c). It was by this essential aspect of divinity ("I AM THAT I AM": Exodus 3:14, John 8:58) that Jesus had the power to revive his human life into human immortality after his human death (John 10:17-18, Romans 1:4). Because he's God, even as a human it wasn't possible for him to remain dead (Acts 2:24).

precepts said in post 435:

You claimed these verses apply only to those days, but God doesn't make changes like this and turn back to allowing 1,980 yrs gap between what he said in Mat 24 and Rev.

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

precepts said in post 435:

You claimed these verses apply only to those days, but God doesn't make changes like this and turn back to allowing 1,980 yrs gap between what he said in Mat 24 and Rev.

Assuming you're partial preterist (since full preterism isn't allowed here), note that just as partial preterism admits that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so partial preterism should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

 

[precepts]

Regarding Christ not knowing the time of his return, before his resurrection, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32). But he did know that he will return "immediately after the tribulation" of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And he did know that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

God spoke in parables so the wicked wouldn't understand:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God the Father and God the son are one. There's nothing that Christ doesn't know.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
---------------------
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


To accept only half of what's written and ignore the other half is folly, to me. You need two halfs to make a whole. A half truth is a lie.

Regarding Christ not knowing the time of his return, before his resurrection, Jesus didn't know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32). But he did know that he will return "immediately after the tribulation" of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, cf. John 16:12). And he did know that this tribulation will include the antitypical fulfillment of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.


WHO IS HE?! GOD HIMSELF CAME DOWN AND BROUGHT SALVATION TO HIMSELF.

The reason that Jesus didn't know, before his resurrection, the date of his 2nd coming (Mark 13:32), was because at his incarnation (John 1:1,14), he temporarily laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8) his divine omniscience with regard to his own conscious human knowledge (Mark 13:32), in order to completely share in our mortal human condition (Hebrews 2:17), and to be tempted in every way that we're tempted (Hebrews 4:15). Nonetheless, he still remained God (John 10:30, John 1:1,14; 1 Timothy 3:16). And after his physical resurrection into human immortality (Luke 24:39), he regained his divine omniscience (Colossians 2:2b-3), just as he regained his divine omnipotence (Matthew 28:18). So now he does know the date of his 2nd coming.

How can he still remain God while temporarily laying aside his divine omniscience?

Originally posted by precepts:
You claimed these verses apply only to those days, but God doesn't make changes like this and turn back to allowing 1,980 yrs gap between what he said in Mat 24 and Rev.

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

"Shortly" and "at hand" is not 1,980yrs! Why do you keep ignoring Dan 12:11, the 1,290 yrs to the "consummation;" and Dan 8:11 and Dan 11:31, the actual timelne for the abomination of desolation? There's no scriptural evidence for your made up excuse of a revised Greek empire post the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision.

Based on the context of Rev 2-3 and Rev 20;22, one is the 1st resurrection return of Rev 4-7; and the other (Rev 20:22), based on the context, is at the end of the world, "the wheat and tares' rapture/harvest of the physical world into the barn (the new Shalem) or the lake of fire. Another fact you haven't addressed yet, "the Wheat and Tares' rapture/harvest (Mat 13:24-30) of the physical world into the New Shalem or the Lake of Fire. Where does that fit in your interpretation of scriptures?

For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

Regardless of God having to explain himself to Israel for thinking that way?



---------------------------------
Eze 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
Eze 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.
Eze 12:24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Eze 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.
------------------------------


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[precepts]

Assuming you're partial preterist (since full preterism isn't allowed here), note that just as partial preterism admits that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so partial preterism should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19.

First of all, base on your definition, I'm not a preterist. It's your's and everyone else's who assumes these words and prophecies weren't fulfilled because they can't comprehend it that's interpreting it to mean 1,980 plus yrs. It's ridiculous to think Christ would give signs that last from then to a later 2,000 plus yrs return. That's just plain foolishness. Daniel confirms the chronlogy of the beast kingdoms implied in Mat 24, as well as in Rev 5-20. They're all connected, showing the fall of these kings and kingdoms, and Christ's kingdom being set up in heaven. That's the key to Mat 24's parables.

Dan 7:7-14 is Rev 4-20. A fact you and everyone else have overlooked. Christ spoke in parable about the setting up of his heavenly kingdom starting with God coming to assist them and setting up his throne in heaven, Dan 7:7-14 and Rev 4-20. Rev 4-20, which is the 1st resurrection, happens in heaven.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This is Rev 4, God setting up his throne in heaven where the saints possess the heavenly kingdom. Satan and his angels' attacks/wars have always been in heaven.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

This is the scriptural 11th horn on the 4th beast which is Rome. Nerva plucks up the Flavian Dynasty (Titus and his two sons) as the prophecied in Dan 7:8. He's also the last Roman by birth or blood that rules Rome, the reason for the 4th beast having 11 horns.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Again the heavenly kingdom where God comes to assist the saints and gives Christ the eternal kingdom/dominion. All happening in heaven when the Beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake:

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Followed by the marriage supper which is the 2nd heavenly war post the 1,000 yrs reign. You and everyone else who interpret Mat 24 to be pending are ignoring the fact Daniel gives the chronlogy, the time of the abomination of desolation, the perpetrator, and the confirmation of God's throne being set up in heaven, all connected in prophecy from Daniel to Revelation. There's no room for any misinterpretation if you realize these facts.

Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Yes he did! The kingdom was established, and the days shortened when Nerva's reign ended in 98 ad, the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor, the false prophet died.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

There's no gap between the beast kingdoms.

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

Stick to the facts. It's a heavenly affair.

 

[Ezekiel 1]

Jon Anon, I don't have the time to go thru all you've posted here but I read your theory in some other sites.

Anyway, do you backtrack on the idea the astronomical sign in the space have signaled the arrival of ELijah? As I read now, you'd rather expect the arrival of Elijah, not the Day of the Lord, on November 14-15? Please correct me if I misunderstood what you've said elsewhere.

There were secular estimates for Nov 15 that were quickly changed with nonsense stories in those websites. Comet Ison's Nov 29 perihelion expectations were exchanged with January - Feb debris field that the earth will pass thru. Still the sun makes the show in these days having M and even X flares. But that alone won't make the game probably. I just don't know what to say more in addition to any theory

 

[Bible2]

precepts said in post 438:

Why do you keep ignoring Dan 12:11, the 1,290 yrs to the "consummation;" and Dan 8:11 and Dan 11:31, the actual timelne for the abomination of desolation?

See the "Daniel 12:11" part of post 417, and the "Daniel 11:31" part of post 406.

Regarding Daniel 8:11, it could have been fulfilled by Antiochus IV.

In Daniel 8:14, the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

Regarding Daniel 8 generally, there the ram represented the ancient empire of the Medes and Persians (Daniel 8:20). The goat represented the ancient empire of the Greeks, beginning with Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:21). After he died, his empire was broken up into 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms (Daniel 8:22).

The Antichrist will come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one these 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms. For whereas Antiochus IV could have fulfilled Daniel 8:9,23-25 typically, the Antichrist will fulfill it antitypically. The Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 8:24a because he will be mighty but not by his own power (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). He will fulfill Daniel 8:24b because he will prosper and will physically destroy the holy people, the church (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). He will fulfill Daniel 8:25a because he will magnify himself (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And he will fulfill Daniel 8:25b because he will stand up against the Prince of princes (Revelation 19:19) and will be broken without hand (Revelation 19:20).

precepts said in post 438:

There's no scriptural evidence for your made up excuse of a revised Greek empire post the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Note that Daniel 7 refers to only four beasts, and it hasn't been said that the Antichrist's empire will be a revived Greek empire.

See the 2nd and 3rd sections of post 411, which discuss Daniel 7 and how the Antichrist's empire will be a revived Babylonian empire.

precepts said in post 438:

Another fact you haven't addressed yet, "the Wheat and Tares' rapture/harvest (Mat 13:24-30) of the physical world into the New Shalem or the Lake of Fire. Where does that fit in your interpretation of scriptures?

Regarding the weeds/tares, in Matthew 13:38, the good seed are the elect, and the weeds/tares are the nonelect, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

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precepts said in post 439:

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:21,25, like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide earthly reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18).

precepts said in post 439:

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Regarding "the Ancient of days", are we agreed that Daniel 7 doesn't necessarily refer to the Ancient of days and the Son of man as being different people? For the description of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9 matches the description of the Son of man in Revelation 1:13-14. And the judgment of people occurring in front of the throne of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9-10 matches the judgment of people occurring in front of the throne of the Son of man in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 (cf. John 5:22).

Also, when Daniel 7:13 says that the Son of man came "to" the Ancient of days, the original Chaldean word (ad, H5705) translated as "to" corresponds to a Hebrew word (ad, H5704) which can be translated as "when" (Psalms 71:18, Jonah 4:2). So Daniel 7:13b can refer to "when" the Ancient of days will come, which will be when the Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), which will be at his 2nd coming to the earth (Matthew 24:30), which will be when the Ancient of days will come to the earth immediately after the tribulation to set up the millennial aspect of his kingdom on the earth with the church (Daniel 7:21-22, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). So when Daniel 7:13b says "they brought him near before him", that can refer to angels bringing the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) before the returned Son of man/Ancient of days to be judged and given to the burning flame (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

The Son of man can be the Ancient of days because the Son of man is "from everlasting" (Micah 5:2c, John 8:58, John 17:5).

precepts said in post 439:

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Just as in Daniel 7:17 the 4 "kings" are 4 empires (Daniel 7:23) which existed in the past, so in Daniel 7:24 the 10 "kings" can be 10 major nations which currently exist. "And another shall rise after them" (Daniel 7:24) can refer to the country of Lebanon, from which the Antichrist could arise and bring to a higher prominence on the world stage. The Antichrist could come from Lebanon's city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

precepts said in post 439:

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The judgment which will sit prior to the Antichrist's kingdom being taken away (Daniel 7:26) could occur in heaven before Jesus' 2nd coming. And it could involve only the matter of the Antichrist's kingdom, which will be taken away legally at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The tribulation's subsequent vial judgments against the Antichrist and his followers (Revelations 16), and then the subsequent 2nd-coming judgment against them (Revelation 19:11-21), will both occur before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Only the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

precepts said in post 439:

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 7:27a refers to the rule of the future, earthly aspect of the kingdom of God being given to those in the church. After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3), those in the bodily resurrected church will be the kings and priests who will rule on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). There will also be unsaved people on the earth during that time who won't be given the kingdom, but will be its forced subjects (Psalms 66:3-7, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:16-19), ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the church (Psalms 2:7-9, Revelation 2:26-29).

And because even the earthly aspect of the kingdom "is an everlasting kingdom" (Daniel 7:27), sometime after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), the earthly aspect of the kingdom will continue forever on a new earth, in the sense of a new surface of the earth (Revelation 21:1-4, Revelation 22:5).

Daniel 7:27b refers to all dominions serving Jesus. After his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3-5), he will be King over the whole earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), ruling all nations from the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-21).

precepts said in post 439:

The kingdom was established, and the days shortened when Nerva's reign ended in 98 ad, the scriptural 11th Roman Emperor, the false prophet died.

Regarding the days being shortened, Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, and Mark 13. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).