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Featured When Jesus died on the cross...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    When Jesus died on the cross did God unleash his wrath on him? If yes, is that wrath forever satisfied? I apologize if this is a stupid question but when I googled it I got so many different answers. Half of the articles say that Christs death was in no way the result of Gods wrath and the other articles said that God the Father unleashed his wrath upon Jesus and that wrath is forever satisfied. It would make sense that God would have to unleash his wrath somehow why not on Jesus? I mean how else is salvation possible but by the death of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

    Also if yes, what about Jesus's wrath? How was that satisfied?
     
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you study the different theories on the atonement, the "penal substitution view" explains why God unleashed his wrath for our sins on himself in sinless Jesus. Who then applied the value of his unjust death to us who deserved his wrath instead.

    Here's how it works. God imputed Adam's sin to us. Then God Imputed our sin to Christ and punished him. And then Imputed Christ's righteousness to us. All according to Romans 5. But look how we made out. Jesus is God, so we now have the infinite righteousness of God worthy of all the blessings only God deserves!!

    “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
     
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  3. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    Some parts of Isaiah 53 may help with your question.

    [​IMG]Isa 53:6 - ...the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

    Isa 53:8 - ...for the transgression of my people was he stricken

    [​IMG]Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him...

    As to the "wrath of Jesus":

    Mar 12:9 - “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.

    Luk 19:27 - But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.' 

    All of those things occurred when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
     
  4. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    You are describing the "penal" aspect of the "penal substitution theory of atonement". It is a recent theological development stemming from a rather legalistic and "punishment oriented" view of theology supported by some interpretations like Dante's inferno - that whole part of history played into such an understanding.

    The early Church never understood it that way. Frankly, it pits the Father (portrayed as a bloodthirsty tyrant) against the Son (who alone shields us from His wrath). This is hardly the perfectly unified state of the Holy Trinity that Jesus always presented to us. It also presupposes that God's hands were tied and He was subordinate to some kind of cosmic law, unable to simply forgive us, even if He wanted to. It made sin God's problem, not ours.

    Sin isn't God's problem. It's ours. Death is the result, because we cut ourselves off from God (Who is the very Source of Life). It infects us, perverts our person into something not what God intended for us - which what He intended was for us to be healthy and whole and free from the slavery to sin, free from death, able to grow into likeness of Christ.

    Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection solved all these problems (and more). But it wasn't because God needed a "pound of flesh" in order to either supply obedience to some cosmic rule or to assuage his own offended pride.
     
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  5. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    No one is guilty of Adam's sin but Adam. I wasn't in Gan Eden, were you? We suffer the consequences (death).
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Adam proved we are a corrupt species when tested, even under the best conditions.
    “For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made [constituted] sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be made [constituted] righteous.” (Romans 5:19)
     
  7. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry, but God doesn't "have" to do anything. He is totally free.

    This penal substitutionary theory says that God was so p/oed He had to take it out on someone, so God killed God in order to satisfy the justice of God.

    In any case, we are saved by Christ's RESURRECTION.

    Try again.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    For some more in-depth discussion this is a good pastoral explanation:

    Articulating the Glorious Cross to an Atonement-Rejecting Culture
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    That seems to be the false narrative modernists and post-modernists like to portray. But we know better as Christians that when speaking of God's wrath being satisfied it is not a materialistic human emotion of taking pleasure in punishing someone or something. We should know to go with what is revealed and know there are still mysteries we are not privy to and may never be privy to.

    As a Roman Catholic I believe doctrinally and logically you can affirm Jesus satisfied the requirements to redeem us and that He was a substitute for us.
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Again, that has nothing to do with my point. WE are NOT guilty of Adam's sin. He brought sin and the consequences of sin into the world.
     
  11. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    Right. God had to satisfy his wrath for my sins your sins...etc. We are each responsible for our own sins. If Gods wrath had to be satisfied at all. I say it did and that it was satisfied once and for all when Jesus died on the cross. But I'm mostly curious about the opposing view.
     
  12. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do infants die in the womb if the wages of sin is death and they are supposedly innocent?
     
  14. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    God the Father is doing everything God can do to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective which includes (at great personal cost to God) the allowing a willing Christ to go to the cross.

    Christ is not trying to “pay off the debt created by our sins” since our sins created an impossible debt to pay. That “debt” cannot be paid (it is totally irreconcilable) but it can be “forgiven”. God’s Love can allow Him to forgive our huge debt without Christ going to the cross. Christ is not trying to make “restitution” for us (that is not possible), but is providing a way for us as children to be disciplined (disciplining is not bringing about restitution) so the disciplining does not have to equal the “restitution” or hell for those that refuse the disciplining in this life. Discipline is not punishment although in scripture negative discipline is often translated punishment.



    The analogy of a ransoming is not an analogy, but an actual ransom, an excellent fit to what is happening Christ, Paul, John, Peter and the author of Hebrews all use it, but that does not mean the Ransom theory of atonement is correct for many reasons including God not owing satan anything and God not needing to pay satan to get His children back. We, as sinners, are holding captive in sin ourselves; we are the kidnappers of our own self. When we appeal to an unbeliever to become free, the person holding him back is himself. We do not pray to God to release the individual and we do not perform an exorcism on the individual. The prodigal son was not stolen away and chained to the pigsty, but the prodigal son held himself in the pigsty until he came to his senses.

    The payment of Christ’s tortured, humiliated and murdered experience is to the individual sinner and it is up to him/her to accept or reject the payment.

    The “value/ benefit” is only realized by the believer in that this is what the unbeliever has caused Christ to go through and it is purely his individual responsibility that Christ went through this torture and murder. He the individual could have provided “another way” if he had just not sinned and fulfilled his objective without sinning (God could have known a person way in the future fulfilled the objective without sinning (mean there was another way).



    Realize what I cause cuts to the heart (is the worst feeling I could have and I am reminded of that feeling and almost repeated at every Lord’s Support, like those in Acts 2:27). The only think that keeps me from collapsing every time I think about what I caused is the fact there is also being shown the greatest Love possible at this same time. I have been forgiven of causing Christ to be crucified, which has to be the greatest offence I could do.

    Realizing how much I have personally been forgiven of compels me to Love much.



    For me to Love much, I have to be forgiven much and like those on Pentecost, being forgiven of crucifying the Messiah is an unbelievable much to be forgiven of.



    Paul seems to convey this idea with Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ…”, Paul is not saying Christ took my place in His crucifixion, but says he has been crucified with Christ. While Christ was being crucified I would think out of a strong empathy for Christ God the Father was being crucified with Christ and would have experienced even great pain and sorrow. As our Love for Christ grows will we not experience a greater empathy for what Christ went through?



    If a child correctly experiences Loving discipline than that child will have a much closer stronger relationship with the Loving disciplining father afterwards.



    This explains the part faith plays in atonement, since the atonement sacrifice is not accepted by the nonbeliever and thus is not disciplined by it.



    The sacrifice is made to God since God sees its need for man and thus out of Love for man the wills Christ freely go to the cross, but it is a gift to man to help man with his/her objective of obtaining Godly type Love.



    Can anyone say: “My little sins are not that significant”?

    Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handled the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished” (NIV), but that also should mean the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

    From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

    Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

    God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

    Paul goes on to explain:

    Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

    I do not like the word “unpunished” but would use “undisciplined”.

    So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

    God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

    If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize at the time, Christ was on the cross God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Think of it this way. God would not be perfectly good if he didn't punish sinners. And he would not be perfectly loving if he did not take the punishment due to us as Jesus on the cross.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

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    Colossians 2: NASB

    13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
     
  17. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Because through Adam's sin, death and disease entered the world, no one is immune. The infant dies from the consequences and effects of it...but the child is not guilty of Adam's sin.
     
  18. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.” (Psalm 51:5)
     
  20. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Did God pretend that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and pour wrath on a man he knew was innocent? Why would anyone believe that? Doesn't God himself say, "Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty." Ex 23:7

    God is just, and so the answer is obviously NO.

    The way it actually worked is that there are two arms of justice.
    1. Punishing the wicked
    2. Compensating victims of unjustified suffering

    The second is the reason why the law of Moses has so many commands concerning the treatment of those who have been subjected to unjustified suffering.

    Jesus died as a victim of unjustified suffering.

    1Pet 3:19-23
    For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

    The compensation Jesus justly received for his unjustified suffering was payment for the sins of the world, so that now he is the source of salvation to all who put their trust in him.
     
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