When Jesus died on the cross...

[Neostarwcc]

Did God pretend that Jesus was guilty of the sins of the world and pour wrath on a man he knew was innocent? Why would anyone believe that? Doesn't God himself say, "Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty." Ex 23:7

God is just, and so the answer is obviously NO.

The way it actually worked is that there are two arms of justice.
1. Punishing the wicked
2. Compensating victims of unjustified suffering

The second is the reason why the law of Moses has so many commands concerning the treatment of those who have been subjected to unjustified suffering.

Jesus died as a victim of unjustified suffering.

1Pet 3:19-23
For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

The compensation Jesus justly received for his unjustified suffering was payment for the sins of the world, so that now he is the source of salvation to all who put their trust in him.

I see. If that's the truth than just how was Gods wrath satisfied?

 

[bling]

Think of it this way. God would not be perfectly good if he didn't punish sinners. And he would not be perfectly loving if he did not take the punishment due to us as Jesus on the cross.

That is not true:

Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

There was a time God did not “punish” the repentant forgiven sinner, prior to the cross.

Punishment in the form of discipline is needed even for the forgiven child if at all possible.

What cosmic “rule” not created by God must be followed by God?

Parents do not have to punish their rebellious disobedient children who repent seek forgiveness and are forgiven, but the wonderful parent need to see to the disciplining of the child if at all possible.

 

[bcbsr]

I see. If that's the truth than just how was Gods wrath satisfied?

God's wrath was satisfied by his two arms of justice canceling themselves out. For more see The Theory of Atonement

 

[Neostarwcc]

God's wrath was satisfied by his two arms of justice canceling themselves out. For more see The Theory of Atonement

Interesting. I'll read that now because before Christ died for the sins of the world man had to sacrifice an animal to pay for their sins.

 

[bcbsr]

Interesting. I'll read that now because before Christ died for the sins of the world man had to sacrifice an animal to pay for their sins.

Actually the animal sacrifices were ineffective in paying for sin because "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb 10:4

 

[Neostarwcc]

Actually the animal sacrifices were ineffective in paying for sin because "it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb 10:4

Then why did God command people to do it?

 

[bcbsr]

Then why did God command people to do it?

Heb 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming— not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

 

[Dave L]

That is not true:

Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

There was a time God did not “punish” the repentant forgiven sinner, prior to the cross.

Punishment in the form of discipline is needed even for the forgiven child if at all possible.

What cosmic “rule” not created by God must be followed by God?

Parents do not have to punish their rebellious disobedient children who repent seek forgiveness and are forgiven, but the wonderful parent need to see to the disciplining of the child if at all possible.

So the Canaanites went to heaven?

 

[bling]

Colossians 2: NASB

13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

NIV 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

“He forgave us all our sins” is specifically said so we agree with being forgiven, but it does not stop there but explains what it means “14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, so the forgiveness = canceling the certified written debt against us.

Being under the law our rebellious disobedience against God was to be “paid” as it was written with: “banishment or death”. That payable “debt” was forgiven, but nothing is said about it also being “paid” and if it was forgiven it would not need to be paid. What is said is “He (God) has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross”, but again this does not mean it was also “paid” and “what” is being taken away need to be explained, but we have establish it has been forgiven.

The “…having nailed it to the cross” does not seem to just refer to the one individual debt payment, but the entire law of Moses. The entire Law of Moses was done away with (cancelled) and the Law written on our hearts was put in its place. Remember the Law itself is not the creator of the debt but sin is, so the debt is not being nailed but the “contract” itself is cancelled (nailed to the cross). Most seem to agree that the Mosaic Law was taken away (nailed to the cross), so do you have something else?

 

[redleghunter]

Being under the law our rebellious disobedience against God was to be “paid” as it was written with: “banishment or death”. That payable “debt” was forgiven, but nothing is said about it also being “paid” and if it was forgiven it would not need to be paid. What is said is “He (God) has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross”, but again this does not mean it was also “paid” and “what” is being taken away need to be explained, but we have establish it has been forgiven.

The certificate of debt was nailed to the cross. That indeed shows Christ paid this debt. Unless now you are going to say the Roman soldiers nailing Christ to the cross paid the debt.

 

[bling]

So the Canaanites went to heaven?

How did you get that from what I said???

 

[redleghunter]

The “…having nailed it to the cross” does not seem to just refer to the one individual debt payment, but the entire law of Moses. The entire Law of Moses was done away with (cancelled) and the Law written on our hearts was put in its place. Remember the Law itself is not the creator of the debt but sin is, so the debt is not being nailed but the “contract” itself is cancelled (nailed to the cross). Most seem to agree that the Mosaic Law was taken away (nailed to the cross), so do you have something else?

The Law condemns us all. The wages of sin is death. This is a death penalty due us all. Jesus died nailing this condemnation to the cross. Jesus suffered the death penalty instead of us. He is the substitute for us.

This is basic Christian theology from the New Testament. I think you are trying to lessen the raw truth of Christ’s Finished Work to appease Muslims and non believers who find the Cross offensive or foolish. Which the Apostle gives us advice and warning.

1 Corinthians 1:


18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


1 Corinthians 2: NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

And Paul warns us to not corrupt the Gospel:

Galatians 1: NASB
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

 

[bling]

The certificate of debt was nailed to the cross. That indeed shows Christ paid this debt. Unless now you are going to say the Roman soldiers nailing Christ to the cross paid the debt.

The "Old Law" was not a certification of debt, but it showed how you became indebted. There are traffic Laws which are good, but if you speed you get a ticket (a debt to be paid). Nailing the traffic laws up and doing away with them is not the payment of the debt.

 

[redleghunter]

The "Old Law" was not a certification of debt, but it showed how you became indebted. There are traffic Laws which are good, but if you speed you get a ticket (a debt to be paid). Nailing the traffic laws up and doing away with them is not the payment of the debt.

This is odd. You are denying the very act of Christ's suffering and death cancels the debt, which actually means settling it.

What confirms this is we are cursed and He took the curse for us.

Galatians 3: NASB

10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.” 11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[bling]

The Law condemns us all. The wages of sin is death. This is a death penalty due us all. Jesus died nailing this condemnation to the cross. Jesus suffered the death penalty instead of us. He is the substitute for us.

This is basic Christian theology from the New Testament. I think you are trying to lessen the raw truth of Christ’s Finished Work to appease Muslims and non believers who find the Cross offensive or foolish. Which the Apostle gives us advice and warning.

There are tons of problems with substitution with the main issue have God seeing to the cruel punishment of the innocent Christ to allow the guilty to go free. That is totally unjust and totally not like God.

I hear repeatedly: “The wages of sin is death.” OK!! Do saints physically die? Do mature adults wind up being separated from God because of their sins? Is separation from God not described as spiritual death? So how has that “wage” not been paid by all sinners? What Christ does is provide us with eternal life after we have died both physically and spiritually.

1 Corinthians 1:


18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


1 Corinthians 2: NASB
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

And Paul warns us to not corrupt the Gospel:

Galatians 1: NASB
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

I hope I follow the Spirit and scripture, but not the teachings of men.

 

[redleghunter]

There are tons of problems with substitution with the main issue have God seeing to the cruel punishment of the innocent Christ to allow the guilty to go free. That is totally unjust and totally not like God.

Thank you for admitting why you had to craft your own gospel as the one revealed is not sensible to post modern materialistic thought.

There's no problem with what God has revealed clearly. Satisfaction and substitution is what Jesus and His Apostles taught. They also taught this would be a stumbling block. Which is all too clear now.

 

[redleghunter]

I hear repeatedly: “The wages of sin is death.” OK!! Do saints physically die? Do mature adults wind up being separated from God because of their sins? Is separation from God not described as spiritual death? So how has that “wage” not been paid by all sinners? What Christ does is provide us with eternal life after we have died both physically and spiritually.

Christ is the First Born from the dead. If you take that title from His victorious Resurrection over death and back up to John 3 on the New Birth, you will see how we obtain eternal life from the Finshed Work of Christ on the Cross and the Empty Tomb.

 

[redleghunter]

I hope I follow the Spirit and scripture, but not the teachings of men.

The epistles of Paul are inspired Holy Scriptures.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've found it interesting the way Romans 5:9 has often been translated. If you look at most English translations (the KJV is one of the few exceptions actually) you'll see something similar to the ESV which has "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." That is, you'll see "the wrath of God" or "God's wrath" or something similar. What I find interesting is that this simply isn't found in the Greek. Maybe there are variant Greek texts I haven't seen, but the vast majority of the Greek texts I've seen simply don't say this, they read:

πολλῷ οὖν μᾶλλον δικαιωθέντες νῦν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ σωθησόμεθα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τῆς ὀργῆς. (Nestle Greek New Testament 1904)

You can compare here: Romans 5:9 Parallel Greek Texts

The Greek says "sothesometha di autou apo tes orges", "saved by Him from the wrath". Identifying this as God's wrath is an interpretation by the translators, and so they add "God" here for the purpose of adding clarity (as for how they interpret the meaning here).

When looking at how the ancients saw this passage, I found St. John Chrysostom commenting on this passage writing thus,

"He wishes to give them reasons for confidence respecting things to come. And first he gives them a sense of shame from the righteous man's decision, when he says, that he also 'was fully persuaded that what God had promised He was able also to perform;' and next from the grace that was given; then from the tribulation, as sufficing to lead us into hopes; and again from the Spirit, whom we have received. Next from death, and from our former viciousness, he makes this good." (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 9 on Romans, emphasis mine)

Chrysostom, at least as it seems to me, suggests that tes orges ("the wrath") from which we are saved is not God's wrath, but our wrath. This makes a lot of sense considering the content of the whole chapter, where the Apostle has stated that God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us, that Christ died for the ungodly, that God in His grace has reconciled us, we who were God's enemies.

We were the enemies of God, we were the ones hostile toward God, in our sin and ungodliness, in our unrighteousness and wickedness. God, in His kindness, has overcome our hostility, our enmity, our unrighteousness, our sin through the death, resurrection, and life of His Son by which He has freely justified us, reconciled us, established peace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dave L]

Christ is not trying to “pay off the debt created by our sins” since our sins created an impossible debt to pay. That “debt” cannot be paid (it is totally irreconcilable) but it can be “forgiven”. God’s Love can allow Him to forgive our huge debt without Christ going to the cross. Christ is not trying to make “restitution” for us (that is not possible), but is providing a way for us as children to be disciplined (disciplining is not bringing about restitution) so the disciplining does not have to equal the “restitution” or hell for those that refuse the disciplining in this life. Discipline is not punishment although in scripture negative discipline is often translated punishment.

How did you get that from what I said???

So God can forgive anyone even the Canaanites without first paying for their sins and remain good? Didn't God kill them because he is good and they were bad?