When is lying not sinful?

[razzelflabben]

My initial thought is found in I Cor. 13 where we see that Love rejoices in the truth...I will pray on it tonight and get back with more tomorrow if the Lord wills it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So when does Yahweh permit such things then?

Seek Yahweh's answer -
for instance, when did Yahweh PREVENT King David from sinning , or Moses, or Ananias and Saphira, etc etc etc - when did Yahweh PREVENT His people from doing something evil ?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

No,
a lot of religious leaders have "good intentions" potentially for a multitude of things they do, that they truly believe are not just okay to do, but are right in God's eyes, (including killing true believers, thinking they are doing God a favor!!!!)
but they are abominations to God and disobey His Word every day, willingly, wittingly, and willfully.

Eh I am sure on the outer appearance they are zealous for God, but their heart can be in another place. After all the Pharisees said they were trying to preserve their religion and peace but we know their hearts were far from God.

So are you saying that if you hide someone who is under threat of death and lie to their conspirators so they do not catch them, that what you have done is wrong in God's eyes? Like Germans did during WWII with Jews?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions | WordReference Forums
WordReference Forums › English Only › English Only
Mar 17, 2006 - 27 posts - ‎20 authors
Good intentions are the work of the devil. Any attempt to change human nature is doomed. The only thing trying to change human nature is the ...
What does 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions' mean ...
www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.../what_does_the_road_to_hell_is.html
Jul 28, 2015 - Our 'good intentions' thus hide the real and cumulative outcomes of our ..... Many have abused his name, and the name of Jesus and done evil.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Seek Yahweh's answer -
for instance, when did Yahweh PREVENT King David from sinning , or Moses, or Ananias and Saphira, etc etc etc - when did Yahweh PREVENT His people from doing something evil ?

That is a very bland answer my friend, if you are going to come here and tell people they are wrong but then offer no evidence to the contrary how can we take your words as truth?

Seek God's answer is a cop out.

That is what we are doing here. Seeking God's answer for the question. When does God permit deceit and lies?

 

[Jim Langston]

Some good points raised here. I personally am trending towards it is the intent that is measured as sinful rather than the action itself.

As for why Moses reported the Israelites as wanting to only worship for a few days in the wilderness, perhaps it was just a way to gauge Pharoah's willingness to let his slave force go? I don't know.

As for Abraham's actions not being ok, it just seems from the text that God still blessed Abraham even with his deception, because God sent a curse upon Pharoah as long as Sarai was in his house. It is possible God didn't approve but it just doesn't come across that way. Again maybe it was Abraham's intent.

We know Abraham was a man that cherished life and was not inherently deceitful, so maybe him doing to preserve his own life is why? He did after all say only a half truth (Sarai was his half sister) so the Pharoah wouldn't slay him.

Well, Abraham was a man and as such imperfect. However, Abraham is God's chosen man because Abraham has found favor in God's eyes. God does not abandon us as soon as we sin. It is a path we are on, a way. Every little thing we do wrong won't even be remembered. So, yes, Abraham lied and God still protected him. Not because God liked the lie, but because God loved Abraham. Pretty much at that point Abraham was getting blessed whatever he did, Abraham's life was blessed, not just things he did.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

My initial thought is found in I Cor. 13 where we see that Love rejoices in the truth...I will pray on it tonight and get back with more tomorrow if the Lord wills it.

Awesome thank you!

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

So are you saying that if you hide someone who is under threat of death and lie to their conspirators so they do not catch them, that what you have done is wrong in God's eyes? Like Germans did during WWII with Jews?

This is an excellent example.

If a Christian German hid Jews in his secret basement for the duration of WWII and lied to suspicious Nazi officers about it, which would have saved the lives of several people, how on earth could anyone think that such a lie is sinful?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, Abraham was a man and as such imperfect. However, Abraham is God's chosen man because Abraham has found favor in God's eyes. God does not abandon us as soon as we sin. It is a path we are on, a way. Every little thing we do wrong won't even be remembered. So, yes, Abraham lied and God still protected him. Not because God liked the lie, but because God loved Abraham. Ptetty much at that point Abraham was getting blessed whatever he did, Abraham's life was blessed, not just things he did.

Ah I see, thanks

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is what we are doing here. Seeking God's answer for the question. When does God permit deceit and lies?

There was a complete tangent to the title/op/ this question :
the question of "good intentions", which have been totally exposed as being of no value, for decades or for centuries, by the men God chose to teach and preach the GOSPEL.

This question now "When does God permit deceit and lies?" is
really quite simple to answer, though not satisfactorily .... (it is possible it won't be possible today .... I don't know) ...

When does God permit ? .....
God permits deceit and lies every day, on all the internet, everywhere.

 

[JoeP222w]

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


Don't see any exception in that verse. I find nowhere in the Bible where lying is a righteous act.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


Don't see any exception in that verse. I find nowhere in the Bible where lying is a righteous act.

Look again. Keep seeking.
Find out the difference between what the commandment you just quoted says,
and what a lie is.

 

[razzelflabben]

Does anyone have any NT examples of God's people lying?

 

[Jim Langston]

There was a complete tangent to the title/op/ this question :
the question of "good intentions", which have been totally exposed as being of no value, for decades or for centuries, by the men God chose to teach and preach the GOSPEL.

This question now "When does God permit deceit and lies?" is
really quite simple to answer, though not satisfactorily .... (it is possible it won't be possible today .... I don't know) ...

When does God permit ? .....
God permits deceit and lies every day, on all the internet, everywhere.

You are arguing words, my friend, please don't do that.

2 Timothy 2:14 Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

By permit we understand the statement
to mean not disapprove, not dislike. Yes, you can take a different flavor to the word permit but why? You are just arguing over words and not discussing that which we are actually discussing.

 

[Haipule]

Also, Paul said that, "All men are liars". He then, included himself. As man has pursued truth or understanding, lying is inevitable because we cannot know all the truth. As David said, "Your ways are unsearchable". For instance, at one time both respect clergymen and scientists said, "the world is flat". But, as man pursed an understanding of our solar system, that was proven untrue or, a lie. Yet, no deception was intended.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek. Jacob with his brother Esau, several times. Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

What about making silly noises then blaming them on a friend or family member?

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

Note: Please take note that I just updated my post because I changed my position in regards to lying with regards to Rahab, and the Hebrew mid wives, etc. Anyone who has liked my post here is agreeing to my old position or view on lying in the Old Testament.

Anyways, here is my new position or view:

We have to understand that while God's Word praises Rahab for her righteous actions of receiving the two Israelite spies with peace, protecting them in her home, and sending them away on a safe route, she was also a sinful person and was not perfect yet. She was a harlot and a part of a very sinful society. So while God did not approve of her sin, her heart was in the right place in regards to wanting to help the Israelites.

Some believe the Hebrew mid wives had lied (Exodus 1); But the text is not all that clear that such a thing is the only possibility or conclusion alone. The text does not say that they lied, either.

Now, we should not confuse lying (speaking untrue words) with deception tactics used during war time or in protecting your loved ones or God's people, a person can use the art of war to defend that which is good. This sometimes unfortunately involves deceiving and or eliminating your enemy by certain deceptive battle tactics; However, these things are not done out of selfish ambition, but they are done in order to preserve innocent lives or to protect the common good (And no words of deception are used in these cases). In Joshua 8: Joshua himself went in battle against the city of Ai, they pretended that they were being defeated and they retreated. They weren’t being defeated—it was a trap. The Israelites deceived them. But again, no words of deception were used! No actual lying with one's words were involved!

We do see other instances of deception in the Bible, that we should carefully pray and study further:

King David pretended he was crazy when he was not crazy in front of the enemy king of Gath named "Achish" (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

Elisha appeared to deceive the enemy when they were blinded by lying about where he was taking them. (2 Kings 6:19).

Side Note:

Oh, and one more thing. I would like to add that believers today are not under the Old Covenant anymore. God is not telling His people to go to war with certain nations, and use deception as a part of the art of war, etc. Believers today are under the New Covenant with a different set of laws or commands that involves love and non violence. There is no command in the New Testament that gives believers today any sanction to physically attack another nation (Whereby deceptive tactics could be used).

Also, If a believer is in a difficult situation whereby they are forced to lie so as to protect a loved one today, I believe that they will repent of such a sin (i.e. confess it to the Lord Jesus Christ). For how often does a person run into this kind of scenario? If they repeatedly do so, then they need to stand up for what is good and right and trust in God's good ways. It is still always wrong to lie out of our own selfish motives and ambitions. We believers today are called to be imitators of Jesus Christ. God says, "Be ye hoy, as I am holy." Yet, God says it is impossible for Him to lie. We should be like God and it should be impossible for us to lie, too. We follow a higher calling of love and goodness. For do you think Jesus would lie to protect life? Maybe He would use play on words, but Jesus would never tell an outright bold face lie.

For example: If I was hiding Jews during the time of the war, and Germans broke into my house, and they asked me, "Are there any Jews here?"

Instead of freezing up like a deer in headlights thinking about a "yes" or a "no", I could reply,

"Do you see any Jews around here?" "Please feel free to look around."


...

 

[Haipule]

Does anyone have any NT examples of God's people lying?

Rahab

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are arguing words, my friend, please don't do that.

You're clearly wrong.

There are deeper "intentions"/ i.e. "motives" at work which clearly oppose God's Plan, Purpose, Salvation, and His Word.
This is what is most important,
and as awkward as it is to actually get into this on this site,
it is still DOable a little bit, as YHWH permits.

The root of sin can be dealt with by JESUS, and by God's Word,
when it is permitted and when people are willing.
It is not dealt with if someone is not willing,
and there are many rules on this site that prevent dealing with it straight-away.

Those who are seeking the TRUTH have YHWH'S PROMISE that if they keep seeking the TRUTH, they will find it (YHWH'S WORD, not man's, guarantees this; not at all related to the motives or intentions or the rules of anyone on the internet/ in government or in religion).

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm still praying on this but so far it reminds me of a discussion I had with someone who declared you should never keep a secret from your spouse. I laughed because our son was coming home from the military and wanted to surprise his father so asked me to keep the secret. I used this as an example of keeping a secret from a spouse but the person I was talking to was serious and insisted that even this should not be kept from a spouse.

So I guess what my point is, what would you call a lie? As in can we define a lie? Would you consider keeping a secret a lie? Or not saying anything when asked a question a lie? What constitutes a lie in this question?

 

[razzelflabben]

Rahab

Rahab is OT is she not? The reason I am asking is because the OT law is not the same law we are called to live today thus gives us some problems in answering this question. (Still praying about the answer and working things through so that when I do post more it is coherent)