When is it a sin?

timothyu

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What does it mean to love God with all of one's being, exactly?

Think of it as the Bible says, fearing God. Fearing did not mean being afraid,. It meant respect. If you respect God, you are in allegiance to Him, putting His will first, especially before your own/mankinds. The things you described were those people putting God's will of loving neighbour as self into practice.

What does it mean to love your neighbor as yourself?

I would hope you know it means if you don't like someone doing someone to you, why would you do it to someone else? You want your wife cheating on you? Why cheat with someone else's wife. You like your stuff stolen. Why steal from others? If you were hungry, sick, desperate for a lift up why not lift up others in the same position? If you don't like war or immigrants fleeing to save their lives, how about helping others avoid the need for conflict or leaving in the first place instead of using them for self gain.
So on so forth. Ask the newbies what it is about the world of man they hate. Chances are if they are decent folk their answer won't be that they find it hard to put their greed to work, but rather the evils of the world bother them Would not loving neighbour as self as the platform for humanity solve all those evils? It is meant to be put into private practice. We are not of this world. A simple way of showing them the difference/effects of man's will vs God's. You might want to throw in who taught us that and get them curious, not about religion, but about Jesus.

This study of God is anchored thoroughly to Scripture

Yes man's will vs God's will starts at the beginning of the book and ends at the end. The Garden was about man putting his will before God's. The Flood, the 40 years in the desert, and so on, about man reverting to putting their will before God's. Jesus comes and sets the example. Man's will goes against God and they kill Him for a few days. Jesus says don't build a religion but establish a way of life. Man puts his will first and creates a religion and as a kicker re-aligns with the government of man to become a worldly power instead of staying true to the will of God and remaining separate in nature. It goes on until today and will until the Messiahs return. Man's will vs God's. Flesh vs spirit. Where is the repentance? Where is the division between the two wills instead of the political division between man as God and His Kingdom sits in the background?
 
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aiki

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My questions about how to love God and one's neighbor were rhetorical, showing the complexity of both commandments. They are, though, the sorts of questions I answer often from new believers.

Think of it as the Bible says, fearing God.

The Bible says that loving God is to fear Him? I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where such a thing is stated. But Scripture does say:

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
19 We love, because He first loved us.


If you respect God, you are in allegiance to Him

Not necessarily. For example, I respected my teachers in school but I had no particular allegiance to them.

putting His will first, especially before your own/mankinds

Why would someone do this to begin with? It seems to me, loving God is not putting His will first but is, rather, the reason a Christian does so.

I would hope you know it means if you don't like someone doing someone to you, why would you do it to someone else? You want your wife cheating on you? Why cheat with someone else's wife. You like your stuff stolen. Why steal from others? If you were hungry, sick, desperate for a lift up why not lift up others in the same position? If you don't like war or immigrants fleeing to save their lives, how about helping others avoid the need for conflict or leaving in the first place instead of using them for self gain.

Well, here you're making yourself, your own personal preferences, the final arbiter of what loving your neighbor means. I think Scripture is pretty clear, however, that God intends that He fill that role rather than us. We are to love others according to God's truth and wisdom, in accord with His holiness and moral purity, in reflection of His faithfulness, grace, and mercy. It's all about Him, you see, not us. As John the Baptist said,

John 3:30
30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."


A simple way of showing them the difference/effects of man's will vs God's. You might want to throw in who taught us that and get them curious, not about religion, but about Jesus.

Thanks for the advice. It's generous of you to offer it but unnecessary. I've been discipling people for a long time now and have a very well-developed syllabus and system of doing so.

Jesus says don't build a religion but establish a way of life.

Oh? Where does he say this, exactly?

Man puts his will first and creates a religion

What are you thinking "religion" means, exactly?

Where is the repentance. Where is the division between the two wills instead of the political division between man as God sits in the background?

Not really following you here...
 
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timothyu

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1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
19 We love, because He first loved us.

That's the other fear right. Not the reverence or respect one but the afraid one.


We are to love others according to God's truth and wisdom, in accord with His holiness and moral purity, in reflection of His faithfulness, grace, and mercy.

How does that separate Kingdom from world of man? Man is selfish, God says to be selfless in loving neighbour as self. Servitude, not gain at the expense of others. Loving neighbours as self rather than just loving self or what's in it for us. This is what happens when the Gospel of the Kingdom is not taught It allows man to use an entirely different perspective.
 
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timothyu

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Oh? Where does he say this, exactly?

Because that is exactly what the first church, The Way did. They ncluding the Apostles lived accordingly, not of the world but still in it. They put into practice the Gospel of the Kingdom. Today they would still be ridiculed just like they were then for 'dropping out'.

What are you thinking "religion" means, exactly?

Ask the Saudicees/Pharisses. They had the same set-up. An institution of power complete with it's own rules and regulations..

Not really following you here...

Not surprising if you don't follow the Gospel of the Kingdom. Why has Christianity not taught man's world vs the Kingdom since the teachings of Jesus and the early church? Preferring instead to cause strife and division within the world alone.
 
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SkyWriting

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aiki

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How does that separate Kingdom from world of man?

How does living according to God's commands and in reflection of His holy character separate the kingdom of God from the world of Man? The kingdom of God has always been separate from the World. It is a spiritual kingdom, a heavenly kingdom, and an eternal kingdom and in these respects exists transcendent to the finite, temporal, material World in which humanity lives.

Loving neighbours as self rather than just loving self or what's in it for us. This is what happens when the Gospel of the Kingdom is not taught It allows man to use an entirely different perspective.

I don't teach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" but the Gospel of Christ. He is at the center of the Gospel, not the kingdom of God. Remember, Jesus said,

John 14:6
6 ..."I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

And Peter said of Jesus,

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."


And Paul wrote,

1 Corinthians 2:2
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Because that is exactly what the first church, The Way did. They ncluding the Apostles lived accordingly, not of the world but still in it.

So, there is no place where Jesus actually says "Don't build a religion but establish a way of life." This is because forming a religion and establishing a way of life are not mutually exclusive things. Christianity is a religion - it has a codified set of beliefs and practices concerning God and the supernatural - but it is also a way of living. It is a false dichotomy to assert that it must be one or the other.

They put into practice the Gospel of the Kingdom. Today they would still be ridiculed just like they were then for 'dropping out'.

??? Dropping out? When were the early believers ridiculed as you say here that they were?

Ask the Saudicees/Pharisses. They had the same set-up. An institution of power complete with it's own rules and regulations..

Did the apostles not have power in the Early Church? Were they not set as overseers, and teachers, and judges of the flock of God? Yes, they were. And they certainly laid out a great many "rules and regulations" for the first believers. Were the apostles merely being "religious," behaving like wretched Pharisees? I don't think so.

Not surprising if you don't follow the Gospel of the Kingdom.

I follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:11-13
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


Why has Christianity not taught man's world vs the Kingdom since the teachings of Jesus and the early church?

See above.

Preferring instead to cause strife and division within the world alone.

???
 
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Monna

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Yes, but failed to back it with scripture.

Just a reminder... Satan quoted scripture when he tempted Jesus.
It is very straightforward to extract scripture as a premise or argument to justify one's personal ideas. This is done often, even in these Christian Forums. o_O;)
 
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timothyu

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How does living according to God's commands and in reflection of His holy character separate the kingdom of God from the world of Man? The kingdom of God has always been separate from the World. It is a spiritual kingdom, a heavenly kingdom, and an eternal kingdom and in these respects exists transcendent to the finite, temporal, material World in which humanity lives.

You seem to have missed that 'Kingdom' is also governance/rulership. God's governance over man's. God commanded us to follow His will here and now throughout the Bible, not conveniently outside the material world making it convenient for those who think they can have it both ways.

So the Kingdom of God is separate in will, but not in location.
 
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timothyu

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I don't teach the "Gospel of the Kingdom" but the Gospel of Christ. He is at the center of the Gospel, not the kingdom of God. Remember, Jesus said,

A common misconception and why there are two different gospels even though Jesus taught only one. He is the Messiah, the one to be listened to over the doctrines of man. The fact you choose not to is very telling. Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


All point directly at Jesus and the fact that what He was and taught were the way. What did He teach? The Gospel of the Kingdom. There are scores of verses verifying that. I will give you a couple. Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

If you prefer to follow Paul to Jesus...
Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

The gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole. A subtle switch for subtle reasons. Leading us away from the Kingdom and back to the world of man, the blinded leading the blind ever since. The Gospel of the Kingdom conveniently left out as it's spotlight on opposing wills, condemns a church that rejoins the world of man, which it did.

It's all about the Gospel of the Kingdom, not just the King. who rather than being followed is put in the spotlight and used to front a worldly religion. He would not have come for you to focus on if it were not for the Kingdom. The blind of religion have mislead the blind for over 1700 years in order to build their empire and reject the Jews.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
 
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timothyu

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Did the apostles not have power in the Early Church? Were they not set as overseers, and teachers, and judges of the flock of God? Yes, they were. And they certainly laid out a great many "rules and regulations" for the first believers. Were the apostles merely being "religious," behaving like wretched Pharisees? I don't think so.


They established a way of life, not a ceremony like the Temple or Gentile churches
 
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timothyu

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So, there is no place where Jesus actually says "Don't build a religion but establish a way of life." This is because forming a religion and establishing a way of life are not mutually exclusive things. Christianity is a religion - it has a codified set of beliefs and practices concerning God and the supernatural - but it is also a way of living. It is a false dichotomy to assert that it must be one or the other.

Jesus was the only person between us and God, hence the way truth and life. The way of life He taught kept that true. The original church kept that true. Along comes the Gentiles and inserts themselves unnecessarily into His formula, putting themselves between us and not only God but Jesus. Entrepreneurs seeking power and authourity over man to establish their own kingdom/empire. Following the old traditional ways of man rather than the new way of the Kingdom right up til today. And you wonder why attendance is dropping without fear and enforcement to maintain congregants tired of the hypocrisy?

No such institutions in Jesus' formula. But of course man's institutions will defend themselves first over Jesus.
 
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timothyu

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Preferring instead to cause strife and division within the world alone. ???

Strife among denominations, fighting each other in wars and over politics of the world, setting themselves up as king makers and empires, inquisitions and forced conversion, forced compliance of the masses.. so on and so forth. All attributes of the will of man, not the will of God. 2 These may rule but yes, a minority of those of God also exist within.
Christianity is no different than the world man has made, for both are made of a dual nature.

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
 
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paul becke

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Wrong? About what, exactly? And what about Paul's remark about a man being saved "so as by fire"?

It indicates an intermediate state in which our venial sins can be purged by God 'as if by fire'.

I've lost track of the context of your first question now, but I think it might have been a blanket condemnation of all sins as being mortal and, in as much, worthy of hell. It might be strictly true hypothetically, but for Jesus, from love, charity, agape, hung the whole of the law and the prophets ; and he certainly distinguished between the hard, loveless scribes and Pharisees of the religio-political Establishment, and their swallowing the property of widows and the like, and the sins of those strugging near the bottom of the pile, the Anawim, including his own flesh and blood - considered by those worthies as a godless rabble.
 
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paul becke

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A common misconception and why there are two different gospels even though Jesus taught only one. He is the Messiah, the one to be listened to over the doctrines of man. The fact you choose not to is very telling. Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.






All point directly at Jesus and the fact that what He was and taught were the way. What did He teach? The Gospel of the Kingdom. There are scores of verses verifying that. I will give you a couple. Luke 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

If you prefer to follow Paul to Jesus...
Acts 19:8 He (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

The gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole. A subtle switch for subtle reasons. Leading us away from the Kingdom and back to the world of man, the blinded leading the blind ever since. The Gospel of the Kingdom conveniently left out as it's spotlight on opposing wills, condemns a church that rejoins the world of man, which it did.

It's all about the Gospel of the Kingdom, not just the King. who rather than being followed is put in the spotlight and used to front a worldly religion. He would not have come for you to focus on if it were not for the Kingdom. The blind of religion have mislead the blind for over 1700 years in order to build their empire and reject the Jews.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

And you prefer to follow the teachings of the Protestant reformers, rather than those of the Church Fathers. I couldn't help laughing out loud the other day when I read that Protestants believe in the Fathers too ; they consider the Reformers as the Fathers of the church.

However, that does make sense to the extent that they did serve to begin to correct the corrupted Roman Catholic church in areas where the traditions of men and outright major criminality had infected it. The latter is still going on within our church, with a major impetus given to the process by Pope Francis.

Nevertheless, for many converts from the Protestant churches, reading about the early Fathers of the church, after the days of the Apostles, and noting that they followed the same basic beliefs as the Catholics today, was an eye-opener.
 
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timothyu

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And you prefer to follow the teachings of the Protestant reformers, rather than those of the Church Fathers.

No I don't play the games of the will of man that have overtaken Christianity and made it an us against them sport within the world. Us against them as taught by Jesus was world of man vs Kingdom of God. I follow the words of Jesus and His gospel. We may be a minority in Christianity but we exist everywhere.
 
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paul becke

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No I don't play the games of the will of man that have overtaken Christianity and made it an us against them sport within the world. Us against them as taught by Jesus was world of man vs Kingdom of God. I follow the words of Jesus and His gospel. We may be a minority in Christianity but we exist everywhere.

Jesus' Gospel specified the establishment of a church, an assembly, under the aegis of Peter. And his will was that it should not be divided. Narrowing your focus onto Jesus' written word falls short of his express commands. Where did Jesus teach which were to be the canonical books of the New Testament ? In the early church, they did not yet possess the written scriptures of the New Testament that we have.
 
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timothyu

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. Where did Jesus teach which were to be the canonical books of the New Testament ? In the early church, they did not yet possess the written scriptures of the New Testament that we have.

He didn't have too. He already gave us his instructions and commandments. He gave us enough to forward the message of choosing between the will of God and the will of man. The same message all through the OT of an original truth. Choose one or the other but you can't have both. Will of man or Kingdom of God. The rest is just self serving man freelancing and setting up their own denominations complete with human doctrines, ceremony and the History channel. Jesus said truth would come from the Father, not from the opinions of man.
 
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aiki

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You seem to have missed that 'Kingdom' is also governance/rulership.

Yes, God rules over His kingdom. This seems rather obvious to me. He is, in fact, the very substance of His kingdom. Without God, there is no kingdom of God. He causes it to be, He constitutes it by His presence and power.

God commanded us to follow His will here and now throughout the Bible, not conveniently outside the material world making it convenient for those who think they can have it both ways.

Have it both ways? Have what both ways? Yes, we are to follow God's will "here and now" but Christ was very clear that his kingdom was not of this world in that it was not a material, political, human thing.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

So the Kingdom of God is separate in will, but not in location.

The kingdom of God is within - spiritually - every genuine believer (Luke 17:21) in the Person of the Holy Spirit, called the Spirit of Christ by Paul (Romans 8:9). Christ is, as I said, the core, the heart, the center of the kingdom of God, who comes to dwell within every believer by the Holy Spirit. He is himself, in a very real sense, the kingdom of God.

In any case, I agree that the kingdom of God is not reflected in, or associated with, the unregenerate will of Man.

A common misconception and why there are two different gospels even though Jesus taught only one.

I teach the Gospel of the New Testament, taught by Christ and the apostles. You may call it the Gospel of the Kingdom but as I pointed out, when Christ preached God's kingdom he was ultimately preaching himself, the Saviour of the World, which the apostles acknowledged clearly in their preaching of the Gospel. (Mark 1:1; Acts 2:14; Romans 1:16; Romans 15:19; 1 Corinthians 9:12; 2 Thessalonians 1:8, etc.)

The fact you choose not to is very telling.

Uh huh.

If you prefer to follow Paul to Jesus...

??? When did I ever say such a thing? Make no mistake, though: the words of Paul are inspired by God and so are the words of Christ. The first apostles believed so (2 Peter 3:15-16; Galatians 2:8-9), as did the Early Church who received Paul's letters as divine Scripture.

The gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole. A subtle switch for subtle reasons. Leading us away from the Kingdom and back to the world of man, the blinded leading the blind ever since.

Merely saying so doesn't make it so. Really, though, I have a hard time following your fractured thinking. The Gospel of Christ is but a part of the whole of what, exactly? What "subtle switch" are you talking about? Who made it and how? How does this switch lead us away from the kingdom and back to the world of Man? How does this constitute the blind leading the blind?
It's all about the Gospel of the Kingdom, not just the King. who rather than being followed is put in the spotlight and used to front a worldly religion.

Anyone who diminishes Christ in an effort to promote a doctrine in doing so reveals that they are off-base in their doctrine. There is no heavenly, spiritual kingdom of God without the King of Kings.

Colossians 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.


They established a way of life, not a ceremony like the Temple or Gentile churches

What are baptism and the Communion Table if not religious ceremonies? Again, though, religion and relationship are not necessarily mutually exclusive of each other.

Jesus was the only person between us and God, hence the way truth and life. The way of life He taught kept that true. The original church kept that true. Along comes the Gentiles and inserts themselves unnecessarily into His formula, putting themselves between us and not only God but Jesus.

???

And you wonder why attendance is dropping without fear and enforcement to maintain congregants tired of the hypocrisy?

??? I don't wonder why the community of believers is shrinking. It has been as much because of the legalistic, hypocritical, fear-mongers within the Church as it has been because of the licentious libertarians within it.
 
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paul becke

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He didn't have too. He already gave us his instructions and commandments. He gave us enough to forward the message of choosing between the will of God and the will of man. The same message all through the OT of an original truth. Choose one or the other but you can't have both. Will of man or Kingdom of God. The rest is just self serving man freelancing and setting up their own denominations complete with human doctrines, ceremony and the History channel. Jesus said truth would come from the Father, not from the opinions of man.

On the contrary, he most certainly wished us to immerse ourself in the truth. Man and God's truth were never meant to be mutually exclusive. However, characteristically, perhaps, of non-conformist denominations, you fail to appreciate how much God has desired to honour us, eventually, as adopted members of his own family. And who is to say that, had it been possible, his love is so great, that He would not have incorporated us into the life of his Holy Trinity, as of right, rather than by adoption ?

Some of you Protestants remind me of Mr five percent, the Armenian oil mogul, who, when asked what was the the number of guests he favoured for a dinner party, replied : 'Two. Myself and the head waiter.' The reason why God doesn't have favourites is because each one of us are 'other Christs'. Would you want to compete with other Christs for God's love ? In heaven, we are one family.

Don't write off other human beings 'en masse', and all the traditions of men, simply because God has allowed the wicked to flourish herebelow, 'like the green bay tree' : the tares left in the field until the harvest at the end of the world. Some of the traditions of men, Christian traditions, have been beautiful and edifying - and certainly approved by Him.
 
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